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Old 04-04-2003, 08:32 PM
Emil
 
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Default What can I add to the soil to produce "stronger" roses?

Hi guys,

The roses in my front yard don't look that great. My Lovers Lane (planted
last year) is especially bad. It barely has any branches that are more than
4 inches. I know that one problem is the minimum sun they recieve. See, not
being in denial is a good thing. :-)

So, what can I add to the soil on those roses, and on all the roses I have.
I see Home Depot has some nitrogen I can add, how about that stuff? I use
mostly Supersoil or GroMulch (the yellow bags).

Emil
Zones 9-10



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Old 04-04-2003, 08:44 PM
Shiva
 
Posts: n/a
Default What can I add to the soil to produce "stronger" roses?

On Fri, 4 Apr 2003 10:28:13 -0800, "Emil"
wrote:

Hi guys,

The roses in my front yard don't look that great. My Lovers Lane (planted
last year) is especially bad. It barely has any branches that are more than
4 inches. I know that one problem is the minimum sun they recieve. See, not
being in denial is a good thing. :-)


Emil, it is a losing proposition, growing roses in not enough sun.
They can be fussy as it is. Can't you get them some more sun? If not
cutting down trees, then by trimming lower branches? Or MOVE them, it
is not hard. Sun is the big basic.




So, what can I add to the soil on those roses, and on all the roses I have.
I see Home Depot has some nitrogen I can add, how about that stuff? I use
mostly Supersoil or GroMulch (the yellow bags).



Get Osmocote for flowering shrubs, and some Mill's Magic Mix. The
latter does make basals sprout, honestly. Do a Google search on Beatty
Fertilizer Co., you can order it there.




Emil
Zones 9-10



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Old 05-04-2003, 01:44 AM
FOW
 
Posts: n/a
Default What can I add to the soil to produce "stronger" roses?

Turkey Manure ! Not as hot as Chicken SHI?.
"Emil" wrote in message
...
Hi guys,

The roses in my front yard don't look that great. My Lovers Lane (planted
last year) is especially bad. It barely has any branches that are more

than
4 inches. I know that one problem is the minimum sun they recieve. See,

not
being in denial is a good thing. :-)

So, what can I add to the soil on those roses, and on all the roses I

have.
I see Home Depot has some nitrogen I can add, how about that stuff? I use
mostly Supersoil or GroMulch (the yellow bags).

Emil
Zones 9-10




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Old 05-04-2003, 11:44 AM
Snooze
 
Posts: n/a
Default What can I add to the soil to produce "stronger" roses?

Roses need lots of sun, lots and lots of it. Aside from that, stick a trowel
into the ground in 3 or 4 different spots around the bush, about 1 ft away
from the center, and tilt the trowel back and forth a bit to create a little
hole. Pour a handful of a mixture bone meal and blood meal into it, and
dress the area with the composted steer manure sold at HD.

If desired, go to a feed store, (the kind that sell supplies to farmers and
ranchers) and buy a few pounds worth of alfpha cubes, toss two handfuls into
a 5 gal bucket, fill with water, and let soak for 2-3 days. Then add a
splash or two of fish emulsion, and a handful of epsom salts. Pour slowly
around the rose bush.

A lot of people in this newsgroup are fans of Osmocote, but i don't use it.
The roses that seem to be the happiest are the ones that get a bulk of the
muck that builds up at the bottom of my ponds filter. I just attach the
garden hose to the drain, and open the valve. Water & fertilize in 1 easy
lazy step.

Sameer


"Emil" wrote in message
...
Hi guys,

The roses in my front yard don't look that great. My Lovers Lane (planted
last year) is especially bad. It barely has any branches that are more

than
4 inches. I know that one problem is the minimum sun they recieve. See,

not
being in denial is a good thing. :-)

So, what can I add to the soil on those roses, and on all the roses I

have.
I see Home Depot has some nitrogen I can add, how about that stuff? I use
mostly Supersoil or GroMulch (the yellow bags).

Emil
Zones 9-10





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Old 05-04-2003, 11:44 AM
Jane Lumley
 
Posts: n/a
Default What can I add to the soil to produce "stronger" roses?

In article m, Shiva
writes
On Fri, 4 Apr 2003 10:28:13 -0800, "Emil"
wrote:

Hi guys,

The roses in my front yard don't look that great. My Lovers Lane (planted
last year) is especially bad. It barely has any branches that are more than
4 inches. I know that one problem is the minimum sun they recieve. See, not
being in denial is a good thing. :-)


Emil, it is a losing proposition, growing roses in not enough sun.
They can be fussy as it is. Can't you get them some more sun? If not
cutting down trees, then by trimming lower branches? Or MOVE them, it
is not hard. Sun is the big basic.


All true, but it IS possible to cosset them on four hours or so of sun
per day, or in dappled sun - it doesn't have to be a blazing desert.

I think they need more everything when they're struggling - more water,
more mulch, more rotted manure, more, and more frequent food and more
antifungal sprays in poor conditions. I've spoken before about Vitax Q4
- I get much better leaf and bloom results with this than with fish
blood and bone, and I find Osmocote nearly worthless - and if a rose is
looking sick it gets rose chicken soup - a foliar feed with liquid
seaweed.

Even so, of course they do better with more light.

--
Jane Lumley


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Old 05-04-2003, 03:44 PM
Shiva
 
Posts: n/a
Default What can I add to the soil to produce "stronger" roses?

Jane Lumley wrote:

..

I think they need more everything when they're struggling - more water,
more mulch, more rotted manure, more, and more frequent food and more
antifungal sprays in poor conditions.


Agreed!

[...]

and I find Osmocote nearly worthless .


You've tried it and you really feel it doesn't help your roses? I
recommended it because Cass likes it and she grows gorgeous roses. But then
she uses fish emulsion and I don't. Hmmm. I have not yet put mine down
(though it is past time) and now wonder if I ought to just go with the
Mill's Mix, some fish emulsion, and my regular granular 3-month. Would you
be willing to elaborate on your experiences with Osmocote? My main reason
for wanting to use it is that it is time release--I get busy and distracted
and once overfertilized my roses and KILLED some in pots. Thanks.




--
Jane Lumley



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Old 05-04-2003, 05:56 PM
Cass
 
Posts: n/a
Default What can I add to the soil to produce "stronger" roses?

Shiva wrote:

Jane Lumley wrote:

.

I think they need more everything when they're struggling - more water,
more mulch, more rotted manure, more, and more frequent food and more
antifungal sprays in poor conditions.


Agreed!

[...]

and I find Osmocote nearly worthless .


You've tried it and you really feel it doesn't help your roses? I
recommended it because Cass likes it and she grows gorgeous roses. But then
she uses fish emulsion and I don't. Hmmm. I have not yet put mine down
(though it is past time) and now wonder if I ought to just go with the
Mill's Mix, some fish emulsion, and my regular granular 3-month. Would you
be willing to elaborate on your experiences with Osmocote? My main reason
for wanting to use it is that it is time release--I get busy and distracted
and once overfertilized my roses and KILLED some in pots. Thanks.


Before we get too far down this road, let's be clear about Osmocote.
There are a number of different kinds. The stuff you buy in the store
around here is only 3 month stuff. That might be fine when you repot,
but it's not much use in the garden except on the short run.

Nursery grade Osmocote is a different kettle of fish. Take a look at
the AM Leonard site. The stuff is forumulated for different climates so
that the release rate is adjusted to the average temperatures and
length of growing season. We have cool soils but moderate air temps, so
a number of roses grow 12 months a year, tho most slow down top growth
from December to February.

I've heard others say that Osmocote releases fast in warm climates.
What I don't know is whether they were using consumer grade stuff or
real nursery grade Osmocote with Minors.

In any event, it simply isn't true that it is worthless when the right
product is applied. Take a look at the results at the San Jose Heritage
Rose Garden if you need proof.
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Old 05-04-2003, 09:56 PM
Shiva
 
Posts: n/a
Default What can I add to the soil to produce "stronger" roses?

Cass wrote:



Before we get too far down this road, let's be clear about Osmocote.
There are a number of different kinds. The stuff you buy in the store
around here is only 3 month stuff. That might be fine when you repot,
but it's not much use in the garden except on the short run.


Good of you to clarify. This is the stuff I am using:

http://www.schultz.com/mc_roseflower.htm

The breakdown is Nitrogen 14, Phosphate 14, Potash 16. It also has
sulphur, iron, and manganese. Like Osmocote, it bases its 3-month
longevity on a 70 degree average temp--and I'd say our average is probably
80, so it might not last me that long.


It pretty much duplicates this Osmocote product:

https://www.amleo.com/item.cgi?cmd=view&Words=14144

Here is the page for one of the Osmocote Pro products that are advertised
as having "minors." (There was none with the 14-14-14 that Scotts says is
just right for roses.They only offer the one with no "minors.")

https://www.amleo.com/item.cgi?cmd=view&Words=159123

When you read the breakdown, it says:

Guaranteed analysis: Total Nitrogen 15%, Phosphate 9%, Potash 12%,
Magnesium 1%,Sulfur 2.3%, Boron .02%, Copper .05%, Iron .45%, Chelated
Iron .23%, Manganese .06%, Molybdenum .02%, Zinc .05%

So, this product has a few more minerals than the Shultz Multicote product
I am using, namely a minute amount of Magnesium, a really tiny amount of
Boron, some Zinc and some Molybdenum , whatever the hell that is. It also
has decidedly less Phosphate and Potash and just a tad more Nitrogen.

Here are the ingredients for the 14-14-14 Osmocote product:

https://www.amleo.com/help-desk/items/1/14144/msds.pdf

My conclusion is that the Shultz product is pretty good, and has some of
the minors the Osmocote Pro has. It seems to me that the "regular"
Osmocote (not PRO) 14-14-14 product is fine if one adds organic materials,
or even mulches marginally. All of the minors are present in materials
like compost, Mill's Mix, and other solid, organic fertilizer.

I think a good point may be not to ever expect to give your roses all they
need with a single product--particularly when it contains straight
chemical compounds and no "whole foods."

Therefore this morning I put down the Multi-cote and Mill's Mix.

Comments?

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Old 05-04-2003, 10:32 PM
Jane Lumley
 
Posts: n/a
Default What can I add to the soil to produce "stronger" roses?

In article [email protected] 9548277.cot
se.net, Shiva writes
Jane Lumley wrote:

.

I think they need more everything when they're struggling - more water,
more mulch, more rotted manure, more, and more frequent food and more
antifungal sprays in poor conditions.


Agreed!

[...]

and I find Osmocote nearly worthless .


You've tried it and you really feel it doesn't help your roses? I
recommended it because Cass likes it and she grows gorgeous roses.


I was interested that others had found it so effective - maybe the UK
product is not nursery grade? The stuff I had just came from the garden
centre.... The roses I used it on flowered only sporadically. The
following year I replanted the same kinds and gave them heaps of mulch,
dug in manure and Vitax. They did much better.

Or it could be that climate matters - there's a big gap between San Jose
and Oxford! We're wetter, which presumably would bleed the stuff
faster, but also much chillier. I imagine all this illustrates the
importance of location; we know what works in our own gardens by hands-
on experience, but only some fo that is repeatable hundreds of miles
away.

On fertilising pots - I've heard that using solid fertilisers can only
work in the short term because the waste products build up in the soil
and eventually make it toxic, so I tend to use foliar and liquid feeds
on my containers.
--
Jane Lumley
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Old 06-04-2003, 01:08 AM
Unique Too
 
Posts: n/a
Default What can I add to the soil to produce "stronger" roses?

In article k.net, "Snooze"
writes:

The roses that seem to be the happiest are the ones that get a bulk of the
muck that builds up at the bottom of my ponds filter. I just attach the
garden hose to the drain, and open the valve. Water & fertilize in 1 easy
lazy step.


When I only had a few plants in pots I used water from the canal. I could see
a big difference when I used this water instead of tap water. I still use in
on newly potted plants, seems to give them an extra boost. There must be extra
nutrients in this type of water, whether from the fish or fertilzer runoff from
everyones lawn.


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Old 06-04-2003, 04:20 AM
Allegra
 
Posts: n/a
Default What can I add to the soil to produce "stronger" roses?


"Emil" wrote in message ...
Hi guys,

The roses in my front yard don't look that great. My Lovers Lane (planted
last year) is especially bad. It barely has any branches that are more than
4 inches. I know that one problem is the minimum sun they recieve. See, not
being in denial is a good thing. :-)

So, what can I add to the soil on those roses, and on all the roses I have.
I see Home Depot has some nitrogen I can add, how about that stuff? I use
mostly Supersoil or GroMulch (the yellow bags).

Emil
Zones 9-10


Hello Emil,

How big are the holes where you planted your roses?
Fertilizer is fine, providing that there is enough space for
the roots to grow and you don't end burning the heck out
of the plant with kindness.

I don't use Osmocote. When I want to be inundated with
blooms of any kind, Schultz Expert Gardener Bloom Plus.
It is a soluble plant food you put in your sprayer, attached
the hose to it and go have fun. 10-60-10 with chelated iron,
manganese and zinc. Works both as a foliar feeder and a
ground one as it washes off the plants. If you want to use
it in your watering can you add 1 tsp. per gallon of water
every time you water, otherwise you can do it twice a month
by adding 1 tablespoon to a gallon.

The advantage of using it with the hose is that all your plants
roses and others, get the same treatment as the same time.
Make sure you spray in a criss-cross pattern for even coverage.
If you do it in the morning when there is no danger of the leaves
staying wet during the night you will give your roses a chance to
dry and at the same time to take a bath ;)

But again, if you didn't make a big hole to begin with, no matter
how much fertilizer and water you give to your babies they wouldn't
have enough roots to absorb it and in the end you will burn the
dickens out of the them with too much of a good thing. A bag of
manure is a great treat to them, so mulch them with that too. Don't
use chicken manure, steer or horse is better and better yet is your
own compost if you have any.

Good luck Emil, I am sure you love your roses and that is half the
battle,

Allegra


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Old 06-04-2003, 04:20 AM
Cass
 
Posts: n/a
Default What can I add to the soil to produce "stronger" roses?

Shiva wrote:

Cass wrote:


Before we get too far down this road, let's be clear about Osmocote.
There are a number of different kinds. The stuff you buy in the store
around here is only 3 month stuff. That might be fine when you repot,
but it's not much use in the garden except on the short run.


Good of you to clarify. This is the stuff I am using:

http://www.schultz.com/mc_roseflower.htm

The breakdown is Nitrogen 14, Phosphate 14, Potash 16. It also has
sulphur, iron, and manganese. Like Osmocote, it bases its 3-month
longevity on a 70 degree average temp--and I'd say our average is probably
80, so it might not last me that long.


Those little round balls don't vaporize. You can find them in the soil
months later. If you squish them between your fingers, you can tell if
all the fertilizer is dissolved. If the little ball bursts and water
sprays out, your Osmocote is spent. If the little ball bursts and
leaves a tiny granular pellet in your hand, your Osmocote is still
feeding.

It pretty much duplicates this Osmocote product:

https://www.amleo.com/item.cgi?cmd=view&Words=14144

Here is the page for one of the Osmocote Pro products that are advertised
as having "minors." (There was none with the 14-14-14 that Scotts says is
just right for roses.They only offer the one with no "minors.")

https://www.amleo.com/item.cgi?cmd=view&Words=159123

When you read the breakdown, it says:

Guaranteed analysis: Total Nitrogen 15%, Phosphate 9%, Potash 12%,
Magnesium 1%,Sulfur 2.3%, Boron .02%, Copper .05%, Iron .45%, Chelated
Iron .23%, Manganese .06%, Molybdenum .02%, Zinc .05%

So, this product has a few more minerals than the Shultz Multicote product
I am using, namely a minute amount of Magnesium, a really tiny amount of
Boron, some Zinc and some Molybdenum , whatever the hell that is. It also
has decidedly less Phosphate and Potash and just a tad more Nitrogen.

Here are the ingredients for the 14-14-14 Osmocote product:

https://www.amleo.com/help-desk/items/1/14144/msds.pdf

My conclusion is that the Shultz product is pretty good, and has some of
the minors the Osmocote Pro has. It seems to me that the "regular"
Osmocote (not PRO) 14-14-14 product is fine if one adds organic materials,
or even mulches marginally. All of the minors are present in materials
like compost, Mill's Mix, and other solid, organic fertilizer.

I think a good point may be not to ever expect to give your roses all they
need with a single product--particularly when it contains straight
chemical compounds and no "whole foods."


Exactly.

Therefore this morning I put down the Multi-cote and Mill's Mix.

Comments?


Sounds fine. My practices are pretty simple. I never fertilize the same
way twice. Organics are great, and I use a variety every year (fish
emulsion, kelp, alfalfa). Using different products (both organic and
chemical) gets different micronutrients in the soil. Cheap-but-good is
the best plan. I moderate all doses (except Osmocote) to about half
strength. Ironite is cheap and supplies a number of micronutrients
too. Mills Mix is supposed to be a terrific but slightly expensive
product, from what I've heard. I've never used it. It's only available
mail order, right?

You can understand how a nursery wouldn't want to go to all this
trouble, with labor as expensive as it is. So Osmocote Pro or Osmocote
Plus (which I think is a slightly better and more expensive product)
keeps the potted nursery plant alive until it's ready for sale without
any major nutritional deficiencies. For a large garden with 100's or
1000's of roses, just getting something down can be good enough.

Timing can be important when it comes to buying fertilizer. As the
spring progresses, it gets harder and harder to locate a supply of 9
month time-release fertilizer.
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Old 06-04-2003, 05:44 AM
JimS.
 
Posts: n/a
Default What can I add to the soil to produce "stronger" roses?


"Allegra" wrote in message
news:[email protected]



A bag ofmanure is a great treat to them, so mulch them with that too. Don't
use chicken manure, steer or horse is better and better yet is your
own compost if you have any.
Allegra


Uh, I assume that means compost that you have *made yourself*, as opposed
to, er, 'your own compost...' !!!
:O

JimS.
Seattle


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Old 06-04-2003, 06:08 AM
Allegra
 
Posts: n/a
Default What can I add to the soil to produce "stronger" roses?

Emil, one more thing

I should have told you the chemical composition
as it was the reason I bought the product in the
first place:

10-60-10 means

10 percent Nitrogen (N)which is a major element
in vegetative growth, helps with the leaf formation
and also maintains the green color in your plants.

60 percent Phosphorus (P) which is essential for a
strong root system. It also helps with the color of the
flowers believe it or not, and helps to hurry up a bit
the growth pattern of the plant.

10 percent Potassium (K) Well this is the catch all the
roses need: helps make the stems stronger, provides
starches and oils, helps fighting disease, and believe it
or not reduces water needs. It is truly essential for cell
division and it is normally used to balance out any excess
of nitrogen and/or calcium making more effective the use
of nitrogen by your roses.

The guaranteed analysis tells you a couple of things that
in my book are truly important: You use less, is fast acting
and it is safe."Will not burn even in the hottest weather
when used as directed".

Total Nitrogen 10% - Ammoniac Nitrogen
Available Phosphate 60% -
Soluble Potash - 10%
Chelated Iron - 0.10%
Chelated Manganese -0.05%
Zinc - 0.05%

I know this is wayyyyy more than what you wanted to read
but I hope it gives you an idea how the components put
together work to help the roses. I like this product because
it works, but we also use Mills Magic, Monty's Joy Juice,
Alfalfa Pellets, so I cannot give anyone's product the total
thumbs up. But you are in California, it gets hot and there
is nothing better than to feel safe using the right amount
and knowing you will not burn the foliage of the roses even
on a hot day.

Allegra



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Old 06-04-2003, 06:08 AM
Allegra
 
Posts: n/a
Default What can I add to the soil to produce "stronger" roses?


"JimS." in a good mood said

Uh, I assume that means compost that you have *made yourself*, as opposed
to, er, 'your own compost...' !!!
:O

JimS.
Seattle


Hello Jim,

It means just that and the reason for mentioning
that was because I am still truly angry at a co-op
that shall remain nameless that offered "home-made
compost" guaranteed to be organic, blah, blah, blah...
so, the one here who believes just about anything
anyone tells her when she hears "organic" wrote a
check for a goodly amount and spent the next two
years picking up from cigarette filters to you name
it from the center of the " home-made organic"
compost.

If you make your own I suppose you don't put into it
cigarette filters because you are smart enough not
to smoke...we won't go into the "organic" part of
it ;) Lets say that I don't have the space to donate
to make compost, for who knows what reason our
zoo no longer sells the zoo-doo that was nothing
short of magnificent for the roses, and I don't care
if Gaia in person tries to sell me any "home made
compost" I ain't buying. You can quote me.

Jim, do you work for the government by any chance?
I am asking because it would seem that only the people
who follow the D.C. double speak would think of
calling feces "compost", specially if it is sold for
80 billion dollars?

Allegra








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