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Old 05-04-2003, 12:44 AM
Shiva
 
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Default Getting Rid of Thrips

I was given a bottle of Cygon because a friend heard me complaining about
how thrips ruin my light-colored blooms.

I went to the Cornell site to read about it, so I am well aware of its
toxicity, etc. Here is the site for anyone interested:

http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/insect-mite/ddt-
famphur/dimethoate/insect-prof-dimethoate.html

Two questions:

1. Is anyone here using this for thrips, spider mites, or anything else?
Here is what the site says it kills: "Aphids, mites, codling moths,
grasshoppers, plum curculio, pear psylla, scale, leafhoppers, thrips,
loopers,Drosophila, lygus bugs, leafminers, flies, olive flies, whiteflies,
Hassids, houseflies and many others (8a) Effective against many insect
larvae. Moves throughout the plant rapidly. Relatively slow acting
against houseflies but with up to 8 weeks residual control. Used to
control fly maggots in manure piles." Sounds pretty good to me.

2. If I use it, how do I incorporate it into my spray program, which is
simply Orthenex every ten days. Should I use just fungicide, perhaps
Funginex or Immunox or the Daconil-based Fertilome fungicide? Can these
things be mixed, or must I spray them separately?

My current, simple routine leaves me with marginal blackspot, loads of
thrips, a few aphids, and just a few Japanese Beetles. Should I leave well
enough alone, or try the Cygon? I use a respirator, gloves, eye
protectors, and protective clothing when I spray, and no pets are allowed
in my fenced yard so that is not a concern. Thanks.


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Old 05-04-2003, 05:56 PM
Tim Tompkins
 
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Default Getting Rid of Thrips

Thrips are primarily attracted to the buds of light colored varieties just
as the sepals began to 'crack' and the bud displays some color.

Most any insecticide is effective. My program is to use a
hand held pump type spray bottle and spray JUST the
buds. If you can eliminate the thrips just as they are attracted to the
light colors it is not necessary to douse the entire garden with an
insecticide.

Aphids are sucking insects that are almost always found on the new, tender
growth. Although you can use an insecticide, they can usually be washed off
with a strong spray of water. If you chose to use an insecticide, most any
broad spectrum product is effective.

Spider mites are NOT an insect and are not usually controlled with
insecticides. They tend to be near the ground on the lower leaves and
usually on the underside of the leaves.

Black spot is usually found on older growth, once it is established the goal
is to prevent further spread, it is NOT
eliminated by a fungicide.

Please keep in mind that there are MANY beneficial insects that are also
killed by the broad spectrum insecticides. I prefer NOT to douse the garden
as it eliminated the beneficial.

If you are observant and use preventative measures it is usually not
necessary to spray the entire garden with the broad spectrum products.

Tim

"Shiva" wrote in message
news:aHlwYXRpYQ==.5af854ab6672910298712aa1ab24ec57 @1049495235.cotse.net...
I was given a bottle of Cygon because a friend heard me complaining about
how thrips ruin my light-colored blooms.

I went to the Cornell site to read about it, so I am well aware of its
toxicity, etc. Here is the site for anyone interested:

http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/insect-mite/ddt-
famphur/dimethoate/insect-prof-dimethoate.html

Two questions:

1. Is anyone here using this for thrips, spider mites, or anything else?
Here is what the site says it kills: "Aphids, mites, codling moths,
grasshoppers, plum curculio, pear psylla, scale, leafhoppers, thrips,
loopers,Drosophila, lygus bugs, leafminers, flies, olive flies,

whiteflies,
Hassids, houseflies and many others (8a) Effective against many insect
larvae. Moves throughout the plant rapidly. Relatively slow acting
against houseflies but with up to 8 weeks residual control. Used to
control fly maggots in manure piles." Sounds pretty good to me.

2. If I use it, how do I incorporate it into my spray program, which is
simply Orthenex every ten days. Should I use just fungicide, perhaps
Funginex or Immunox or the Daconil-based Fertilome fungicide? Can these
things be mixed, or must I spray them separately?

My current, simple routine leaves me with marginal blackspot, loads of
thrips, a few aphids, and just a few Japanese Beetles. Should I leave well
enough alone, or try the Cygon? I use a respirator, gloves, eye
protectors, and protective clothing when I spray, and no pets are allowed
in my fenced yard so that is not a concern. Thanks.



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Old 05-04-2003, 08:44 PM
Shiva
 
Posts: n/a
Default Getting Rid of Thrips

Tim Tompkins wrote:[...]

Thanks for a thoughtful and concise answer, Tim. I will try the Cygon in a
small spray bottle when the thrips first appear. By the way, Orthenex and
Immunox plus now contain a miticide, and Cygon's (I think it is
technically Cygon II)label says that it does too.


Please keep in mind that there are MANY beneficial insects that are also
killed by the broad spectrum insecticides. I prefer NOT to douse the
garden as it eliminated the beneficial.


Perhaps you can help me understand how you are using the term "broad
spectrum." I like to use liquid (i.e., not granular) SYSTEMIC insecticide,
which in my understanding kills only insects that bite or suck the juices
of the roses. The opposite, sometimes referred to as CONTACT insecticides
apparently kill any insect that comes into contact with it. If I use the
former, and not the latter, I do not expect to kill beneficials, because
by definition, beneficials do not chew, pierce, suck on, or otherwise
bother the plants. In my experience, this works fairly well, since I still
have ladybugs and many other types of insects in my garden. I
understand "broad spectrum" to mean killing a wide variety of insects. Do
you make no distinction between systemic and contact insecticides? Thank
you.

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Old 06-04-2003, 02:20 AM
Tim Tompkins
 
Posts: n/a
Default Getting Rid of Thrips

With the term Broad Spectrum I mean an insecticide that is NON specific, and
contact rather than systemic.

Products such as Orthene are contact insecticides and in my experience and
opinion have no systemic or
residual characteristics. Orthene and the like are the common products on
the shelves of garden centers
that most of us are exposed to on a regular basis. The more expensive
products, at first glance at least,
such as Immunox, are usually not offered in the retail trade due to the high
initial purchase cost.

I personally don't care for the food based systemic that are applied to the
soil as they often destroy the
beneficial organisms in the soil, such as earth worms.

My general position is to treat when there is a problem and use a minimal
technique along with IPM.
I also 'feed the soil and let the soil feed the plants'. I DO use
preventative measures for fungal diseases,
as a rule these diseases can not be eradicated once they infect a plant, you
can halt the spread but once
the damage is done there is no mechanism to remove the black spots, rust,
mildew etc.

Over all, my style is to observe, and be informed about the pathogens that
affect our roses. A bit of
knowledge is, in my opinion much more affective than a bottle of what ever
can be sprayed.

The products such as Immunox, Avid, Banner Max that are available through
specialty mail order
are more cost affective, offer better performance and have fewer draw backs
than the general
purpose products from the garden center.

I also don't keep rose varieties that have disease problems such as Mister
Lincoln and Touch of Class.
These two are mildew magnets and tend to encourage the disease in the rest
of the garden. I love
Mister Lincoln, it was my first rose, it just has too many drawbacks, the
same for Touch of Class.

The bottom line is, 'observation and information' are the most affective
tools we have.

Tim

"Shiva" wrote in message
news:aHlwYXRpYQ==.6ac5547c259222a3735116ca857c7569 @1049567828.cotse.net...
Tim Tompkins wrote:[...]

Thanks for a thoughtful and concise answer, Tim. I will try the Cygon in a
small spray bottle when the thrips first appear. By the way, Orthenex and
Immunox plus now contain a miticide, and Cygon's (I think it is
technically Cygon II)label says that it does too.


Please keep in mind that there are MANY beneficial insects that are also
killed by the broad spectrum insecticides. I prefer NOT to douse the
garden as it eliminated the beneficial.


Perhaps you can help me understand how you are using the term "broad
spectrum." I like to use liquid (i.e., not granular) SYSTEMIC insecticide,
which in my understanding kills only insects that bite or suck the juices
of the roses. The opposite, sometimes referred to as CONTACT insecticides
apparently kill any insect that comes into contact with it. If I use the
former, and not the latter, I do not expect to kill beneficials, because
by definition, beneficials do not chew, pierce, suck on, or otherwise
bother the plants. In my experience, this works fairly well, since I still
have ladybugs and many other types of insects in my garden. I
understand "broad spectrum" to mean killing a wide variety of insects. Do
you make no distinction between systemic and contact insecticides? Thank
you.



  #5   Report Post  
Old 06-04-2003, 06:56 AM
Joe Stead
 
Posts: n/a
Default Getting Rid of Thrips

What can you do to prevent mildew, blackspot etc? Thanks in advance!

I DO use
preventative measures for fungal diseases,
as a rule these diseases can not be eradicated once they infect a plant, you
can halt the spread but once
the damage is done there is no mechanism to remove the black spots, rust,
mildew etc.





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Old 07-04-2003, 02:20 PM
Shiva
 
Posts: n/a
Default Getting Rid of Thrips

Tim Tompkins wrote:

With the term Broad Spectrum I mean an insecticide that is NON specific,

and contact rather than systemic.

I see. There's the rub. As I mentioned, I use Orthenex, which is NOT a
contact insecticide, but a systemic insecticide, which is why I still have
tons of earthworms and ladybugs. Cygon II is also a systemic insectide,
but may have an element of contact insecticide in it, I am not sure. You
can read about the different Ortho products at Ortho.com.



Products such as Orthene are contact insecticides and in my experience

and opinion have no systemic or residual characteristics. Orthene and the
like are the common products on the shelves of garden centers that most of
us are exposed to on a regular basis.

I have actually never seen Orthene, but do see Orthenex and Immunox Plus
on a regular basis.


The more expensive products, at first glance at least,
such as Immunox, are usually not offered in the retail trade due to the

high initial purchase cost.

Not so, I'm afraid. Immunox (just fungicide) and Immunox Plus (fungicide
plus systemic insecticide) is sold at all the box stores and garden
centers. I do not find Immunox Plus to be nearly as effective for
blackspot as Orthenex.

I personally don't care for the food based systemic that are applied to
the soil as they often destroy the beneficial organisms in the soil, such
as earth worms.


I have never used this stuff, which I have seen only in granular form.

I DO use
preventative measures for fungal diseases, as a rule these diseases can

not be eradicated once they infect a plant, you can halt the spread but
once the damage is done there is no mechanism to remove the black spots,
rust, mildew etc.

Actually, there are two products that will stop blackspot on the plant
once it is present. They both start with an "M" one is Manzeb, I forget
the other. I have used it and it works, but I prefer to use preventive
measures.



Over all, my style is to observe, and be informed about the pathogens

that
affect our roses. A bit of
knowledge is, in my opinion much more affective than a bottle of what

ever
can be sprayed.

The products such as Immunox, Avid, Banner Max that are available through
specialty mail order
are more cost affective, offer better performance and have fewer draw

backs
than the general
purpose products from the garden center.

I also don't keep rose varieties that have disease problems such as

Mister
Lincoln and Touch of Class.
These two are mildew magnets and tend to encourage the disease in the

rest
of the garden. I love
Mister Lincoln, it was my first rose, it just has too many drawbacks, the
same for Touch of Class.

The bottom line is, 'observation and information' are the most affective
tools we have.

Tim

"Shiva" wrote in message

news:aHlwYXRpYQ==.6ac5547c259222a3735116ca857c7569 @1049567828.cotse.net...
Tim Tompkins wrote:[...]

Thanks for a thoughtful and concise answer, Tim. I will try the Cygon

in a
small spray bottle when the thrips first appear. By the way, Orthenex

and
Immunox plus now contain a miticide, and Cygon's (I think it is
technically Cygon II)label says that it does too.


Please keep in mind that there are MANY beneficial insects that are

also
killed by the broad spectrum insecticides. I prefer NOT to douse the
garden as it eliminated the beneficial.


Perhaps you can help me understand how you are using the term "broad
spectrum." I like to use liquid (i.e., not granular) SYSTEMIC

insecticide,
which in my understanding kills only insects that bite or suck the

juices
of the roses. The opposite, sometimes referred to as CONTACT

insecticides
apparently kill any insect that comes into contact with it. If I use

the
former, and not the latter, I do not expect to kill beneficials,

because
by definition, beneficials do not chew, pierce, suck on, or otherwise
bother the plants. In my experience, this works fairly well, since I

still
have ladybugs and many other types of insects in my garden. I
understand "broad spectrum" to mean killing a wide variety of insects.

Do
you make no distinction between systemic and contact insecticides?

Thank
you.








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Old 07-04-2003, 11:32 PM
Daniel Hanna
 
Posts: n/a
Default Getting Rid of Thrips

In [email protected] 9495235.cotse.net
Shiva wrote:
1. Is anyone here using this for thrips, spider mites, or anything
else? Here is what the site says it kills: "Aphids, mites, codling
moths, grasshoppers, plum curculio, pear psylla, scale, leafhoppers,
thrips, loopers,Drosophila, lygus bugs, leafminers, flies, olive
flies, whiteflies, Hassids, houseflies and many others (8a) Effective
against many insect larvae. Moves throughout the plant rapidly.
Relatively slow acting against houseflies but with up to 8 weeks
residual control. Used to control fly maggots in manure piles."
Sounds pretty good to me.


It is damn good, Shiva. I use it, although it's widely sold in
Australia under a different name (Rogor).

Its control of thrips and aphids is perfect. Spider mites don't like it
but they are pretty resistant to it.

In earlier years I sprayed the infested bushes selectively, which worked
but allowed pest colonies to breed on neighbouring bushes, unseen. By
spraying all bushes at the first sign of infestation, I have sprayed
only twice this season - which is incredibly good.
  #8   Report Post  
Old 07-04-2003, 11:44 PM
Shiva
 
Posts: n/a
Default Getting Rid of Thrips

On 07 Apr 2003 21:20:32 GMT, Daniel Hanna
wrote:



It is damn good, Shiva. I use it, although it's widely sold in
Australia under a different name (Rogor).


Daniel, where have you been? It's been forever. I recall your
mentioning Rogor, but not that it is the same as Cygon II.

Its control of thrips and aphids is perfect. Spider mites don't like it
but they are pretty resistant to it.


Good to know. I will try it on buds when the thrips start. It is fall
there, isn't it now? What have you been up to?

In earlier years I sprayed the infested bushes selectively, which worked
but allowed pest colonies to breed on neighbouring bushes, unseen. By
spraying all bushes at the first sign of infestation, I have sprayed
only twice this season - which is incredibly good.


The key is early application. I already blew that, but I'll try to
make it up.

  #9   Report Post  
Old 08-04-2003, 03:32 PM
Tim Tompkins
 
Posts: n/a
Default Getting Rid of Thrips

I glad you can find the better products in your local garden center. Most
of them stock what they already know and what is advertised in popular
magazines.

One of the keys to sucessful insect control is to rotate the products you
use. Continued use of a single insecticide usually leads to resistance and
loss of controll.

Spider mites are NOT an insect and usually not controlled with insecticides,
the systemics may help, I just don't like them.

Another aspect of the contact insecticides is the effective active period.
Many lose their toxicity after a relatively short period. Obviously the
systemics don' behave like this.

As mentioned previously, early detection and controll are more effective
than trying to eliminate a well established infestation.

The critters are always out there, we just have to be observant and react
with appropriate measures.

The fungal diseases are an entirely different matter, prevention is the most
powerful control. Find a product or home brew solution that works for your
garden and use it regularly. The local soil and water often have a
tremendous affect of what works well. If you are in the eastern half of the
US, the soil tends to be acidic where in the west it is alkaline. This
affects the availability of nutrients in the soil. The pH of the water you
use in spray solutions will also impact how well a spary solution works.
Indicate is a fairly inexpensive product that gives a visual indication of
the pH.

I believe the most important messages are observation and education. Look,
investigate and make intelligent choices.

Tim




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