I noticed on three roses in seperate locations damage I've never seen
before. Something has chewed a perfect little ring around the canes just
below new buds. Anyone know what causes this? Another weird thing - it's
just one bud on each rose I've seen. Apparently, this is a persnickety
pest.

Mike
z8TX

"Mike" pondered about the following

I noticed on three roses in seperate locations damage I've never seen
before. Something has chewed a perfect little ring around the canes just
below new buds. Anyone know what causes this? Another weird thing - it's
just one bud on each rose I've seen. Apparently, this is a persnickety
pest.

Mike
z8TX

Hello Mike,

I suspect you already have gone to visit Baldo, but just in
case...

http://members.tripod.com/buggyrose/

At first I mentioned to BH that I suspected Sawflies but I am
not sure they will go for the bud since I have only seen them
do that to leaves and stems some times. Quite frankly I cannot
think what could be doing that, as some times borers do it,
some time rose chafers do that too, so maybe if you can post a
photo of the damage the little *bahthards* have done someone
can help identify the culprits.

More later from home,

Allegra

In Mike wrote:
I noticed on three roses in seperate locations damage I've never seen
before. Something has chewed a perfect little ring around the canes
just below new buds. Anyone know what causes this? Another weird thing -
it's just one bud on each rose I've seen. Apparently, this is a
persnickety pest.

I get this too. It's a grub, not sure what kind (rose weevil? rose
borer?).

Anyway, systemic insecticides get rid of them, but in the meantime the
affected blooms are write-offs.

On 07 Apr 2003, Daniel Hanna wrote:
I get this too. It's a grub, not sure what kind (rose weevil? rose
borer?).

Anyway, systemic insecticides get rid of them, but in the meantime the
affected blooms are write-offs.

Hi Daniel,

I hate to use insecticide. If you see my follow up post to Allegra in this
same thread, you'll see I have a lot of critters in my garden I want to
protect. Can you recommend an insecticide I can use that won't hurt these
beneficials?

Thanks,

Mike
z8TX

On Mon, 07 Apr 2003, "Allegra" wrote:
Hello Mike,

I suspect you already have gone to visit Baldo, but just in
case...

http://members.tripod.com/buggyrose/

At first I mentioned to BH that I suspected Sawflies but I am
not sure they will go for the bud since I have only seen them
do that to leaves and stems some times. Quite frankly I cannot
think what could be doing that, as some times borers do it,
some time rose chafers do that too, so maybe if you can post a
photo of the damage the little *bahthards* have done someone
can help identify the culprits.

More later from home,

Allegra

I didn't see anything on the page you directed me to that looked like the
damage on my roses. I guess the only answer is insecticide if the problem
gets out of control. Drat and double drat. I haven't had to use insecticide
because I usually only have problems with aphids and those can be blasted
off with the hose in the morning when the ladybugs aren't keeping up. I
have significant numbers of ladybugs and praying mantis here. I line my
beds with limestone and that creates little toad houses. We also have
little pink geckoes and anoles. Is there an insecticide I can use that
won't hurt these other guys that I enjoy seeing in the garden? I was
actually kinda hoping whatever was causing the damage might be food for one
of them.

Also, where can I post pics? Beyond just showing the horror of the insect
damage, I'd like to post some pics of my roses. The bloom on my Don Juan
begs to be immortalized. I also have pictures of the geckoes and "Morrison"
- the anole that lives in the pittisporum. He's big. He's the lizard king.

Mike
z8TX

Daniel Hanna wrote:

In Mike wrote:
I noticed on three roses in seperate locations damage I've never seen
before. Something has chewed a perfect little ring around the canes
just below new buds. Anyone know what causes this? Another weird thing -
it's just one bud on each rose I've seen. Apparently, this is a
persnickety pest.

I get this too. It's a grub, not sure what kind (rose weevil? rose
borer?).

Anyway, systemic insecticides get rid of them, but in the meantime the
affected blooms are write-offs.

I suspect there are two culprits who can do this damage. I believe that
right now, in my garden it is a rose curculio because I found the holes
drilled in the flower *and* the little marking on the pedicel:

http://home.earthlink.net/~cbernstei...ulioDamage.jpg

The stem sawfly damage looks a little different on Baldo's site:

http://members.tripod.com/buggyrose/...ephid-dam2.jpg

Curculios are sure hard to see, considering their coloring. I can stare
right at one and not see it. Anyway, the cure is to hand pick.

On Mon, 07 Apr 2003, Cass wrote:
The stem sawfly damage looks a little different on Baldo's site:

http://members.tripod.com/buggyrose/...ephid-dam2.jpg


Hi Cass,

That's it! The stem sawfly damage looks just like the marks on my roses,
except mine are in a circle around the stem, as opposed to the spiral you
show in that pic. The mark is unmistakable, though. That is definitely the
guilty party.

I'll ask you, too - is there something I can do to get rid of these guys
that won't hurt the fauna I'm fond of?

Thanks,

Mike
z8TX

In article , Mike
wrote:

On Mon, 07 Apr 2003, Cass wrote:
The stem sawfly damage looks a little different on Baldo's site:

http://members.tripod.com/buggyrose/...ephid-dam2.jpg

That's it! The stem sawfly damage looks just like the marks on my roses,
except mine are in a circle around the stem, as opposed to the spiral you
show in that pic. The mark is unmistakable, though. That is definitely the
guilty party.

Rats!

I'll ask you, too - is there something I can do to get rid of these guys
that won't hurt the fauna I'm fond of?

I've got good news and bad news. The good news is that you're not going
to hurt the fauna you're fond of. That's because of the bad news:
there's no IPM for stem sawflies, i.e. no way to treat stem sawflies
other than pruning, *unless* you're comfortable using a systemic
insecticide. There are reasons not to do that, mostly having to do with
spider mites. Rose stem sawflies get some buds every year, but not many
of them. Spider mites are considered the much greater risk to roses,
and the use of systemic insecticides is thought to suppress spider mite
predators. I'm guessing that's because most systemic insecticides have
both systemic and contact action, but I don't know for sure as I never
use them.

Do a search: IPM stem sawfly

http://www.extension.umn.edu/distrib...ponents/6953_0
0.html

http://www.sactorose.org/ipm/84roseipm.htm

Apparently a systemic insecticide will work:

http://cecalaveras.ucdavis.edu/rose.htm

http://www.rosecare.com/pests.html

I think the rose stem sawflies won't continue laying eggs for long. Do
a little study and see if you can live with it; otherwise, it's
chemwick for you.

On Mon, 07 Apr 2003, Cass wrote:
In article , Mike
wrote:

On Mon, 07 Apr 2003, Cass wrote:
The stem sawfly damage looks a little different on Baldo's site:

http://members.tripod.com/buggyrose/...ephid-dam2.jpg

That's it! The stem sawfly damage looks just like the marks on my roses,
except mine are in a circle around the stem, as opposed to the spiral you
show in that pic. The mark is unmistakable, though. That is definitely the
guilty party.

Rats!

I'll ask you, too - is there something I can do to get rid of these guys
that won't hurt the fauna I'm fond of?

I've got good news and bad news. The good news is that you're not going
to hurt the fauna you're fond of. That's because of the bad news:
there's no IPM for stem sawflies, i.e. no way to treat stem sawflies
other than pruning, *unless* you're comfortable using a systemic
insecticide. There are reasons not to do that, mostly having to do with
spider mites. Rose stem sawflies get some buds every year, but not many
of them. Spider mites are considered the much greater risk to roses,
and the use of systemic insecticides is thought to suppress spider mite
predators. I'm guessing that's because most systemic insecticides have
both systemic and contact action, but I don't know for sure as I never
use them.

Do a search: IPM stem sawfly

http://www.extension.umn.edu/distrib...ponents/6953_0
0.html

http://www.sactorose.org/ipm/84roseipm.htm

Apparently a systemic insecticide will work:

http://cecalaveras.ucdavis.edu/rose.htm

http://www.rosecare.com/pests.html

I think the rose stem sawflies won't continue laying eggs for long. Do
a little study and see if you can live with it; otherwise, it's
chemwick for you.

Weeeell, that is good news/bad news. I'll do a little research and see if
they have natural enemies or if you can see the eggs and pick them off,
etc. I wonder why I've never seen the damage before? Maybe they get so few
buds I just never noticed. Hopefully. g It sounds like using an
isecticide is a cure worse than the disease, though.

Interesting - I have Botanica's Roses, Ortho's All About Roses, Field
Roebuck's Foolproof Guide To Growing Roses and Roses For Dummies - and none
of them mention the rose stem sawfly. The closest reference is in Botanica
to "leaf rolling sawfly." Definitely not the same pest. I wonder why none
of these books mention this pest? That seems odd.

Last Christmas everyone decided rose books were the perfect gift. They
weren't wrong, either.

Mike
z8TX

Mike wrote:

I've got good news and bad news. The good news is that you're not going
to hurt the fauna you're fond of. That's because of the bad news:
there's no IPM for stem sawflies, i.e. no way to treat stem sawflies
other than pruning, *unless* you're comfortable using a systemic
insecticide. There are reasons not to do that, mostly having to do with
spider mites. Rose stem sawflies get some buds every year, but not many
of them. Spider mites are considered the much greater risk to roses,
and the use of systemic insecticides is thought to suppress spider mite
predators. I'm guessing that's because most systemic insecticides have
both systemic and contact action, but I don't know for sure as I never
use them.

I had sawflies before I began using Orthenx, and do not have it now.
Moreover, I do not and have NEVER had spider mites. Go to the Ortho.com
page and read about Orthenex. It does not have a contact insecticide. It
works systemically. There is now a miticide added to it, as well. The
latter addition is a fairly recent development. There is no reason to
allow sawflie damage in your garden, Mike. I have been using this stuff
for three or four years--and contrary to the Chicken Little people, I have
earthworms, lady bugs, bees, etc. I do not have spider mites, and in fact
have no insect damage at all save thrips. Surely there are others who have
the same experience.

Weeeell, that is good news/bad news. I'll do a little research and see if
they have natural enemies or if you can see the eggs and pick them off,
etc. I wonder why I've never seen the damage before? Maybe they get so
few
buds I just never noticed. Hopefully. g It sounds like using an
isecticide is a cure worse than the disease, though.

NOT. Do your research.

Xref: news7 rec.gardens.roses:91014

On Tue, 8 Apr 2003, "Shiva" wrote:
Mike wrote:

I've got good news and bad news. The good news is that you're not going
to hurt the fauna you're fond of. That's because of the bad news:
there's no IPM for stem sawflies, i.e. no way to treat stem sawflies
other than pruning, *unless* you're comfortable using a systemic
insecticide. There are reasons not to do that, mostly having to do with
spider mites. Rose stem sawflies get some buds every year, but not many
of them. Spider mites are considered the much greater risk to roses,
and the use of systemic insecticides is thought to suppress spider mite
predators. I'm guessing that's because most systemic insecticides have
both systemic and contact action, but I don't know for sure as I never
use them.

I had sawflies before I began using Orthenx, and do not have it now.
Moreover, I do not and have NEVER had spider mites. Go to the Ortho.com
page and read about Orthenex. It does not have a contact insecticide. It
works systemically. There is now a miticide added to it, as well. The
latter addition is a fairly recent development. There is no reason to
allow sawflie damage in your garden, Mike. I have been using this stuff
for three or four years--and contrary to the Chicken Little people, I have
earthworms, lady bugs, bees, etc. I do not have spider mites, and in fact
have no insect damage at all save thrips. Surely there are others who have
the same experience.

Weeeell, that is good news/bad news. I'll do a little research and see if
they have natural enemies or if you can see the eggs and pick them off,
etc. I wonder why I've never seen the damage before? Maybe they get so
few
buds I just never noticed. Hopefully. g It sounds like using an
isecticide is a cure worse than the disease, though.

NOT. Do your research.

Hi Shiva,

I went to Ortho's website and checked out their PDF label for Orthenex.
When I read all the warnings regarding humans, pets, bees and birds
exposure to their product, I called Ortho. It absolutely does function as a
contact insecticide, read the label. It states "..quickly kills sprayed
insects and mites and continues controlling insects which feed on treated
plants." It is extremely toxic to amphibians (my toads, geckoes and
anoles.) The residue on the leaves is toxic and will kill bees, ladybugs,
praying mantis and any other insect on contact. It states not to use this
product if bees are visiting the area. It is toxic to birds. Birds don't
eat roses. It is contact with the residue that remains on the leaves that
kills them. I've never had a bird that sat in the bush while I was
spraying, lifting each wing for me so I can get it all over. It states if
you get this on your skin, seek medical attention. This is straight from
the people who want me to buy the product, so I gotta believe it. I had
three buds so far with sawfly damage, all on seperate plants. It's not
panic time, yet. I'm no chemophobe - I spray for fungal diseases. If pests
become a nightmare, I will find a product and use it.

By the way, when I called them - I had to probe to get Ortho to admit this.
They started out by saying "it's systemic, it doesn't kill on contact."
When I started pointing out what was on their own label and asking how in
the world it could be toxic to things that don't eat plants, I got put on
hold and eventually someone came back on the line and confirmed that it
does kill on contact as well. The first lady I spoke with was simply
reading the label off the website as I was. She complained about how slowly
Acrobat scrolled. She initially stopped as soon as she saw the word
"systemic" and concluded that it did not kill on contact until I encouraged
her to read farther. These are not experts manning their phone banks. Dig
deeper. I'm glad to hear that you have had good results with Orthenex and
don't seem to notice a population problem with your beneficials. I'm
worried about the amphibians, birds and bees, though. They particularly
stressed how toxic it is to amphibians. I'm just trying to be safe and not
sorry. Like I said, it's not panic time yet.

Thanks,

Mike
z8TX

After I wrote:




NOT. Do your research.

On Tue, 08 Apr 2003 20:55:22 GMT, Mike wrote:




Hi Shiva,

I went to Ortho's website and checked out their PDF label for Orthenex.
When I read all the warnings regarding humans, pets, bees and birds
exposure to their product, I called Ortho. It absolutely does function as a
contact insecticide, read the label. It states "..quickly kills sprayed
insects and mites and continues controlling insects which feed on treated
plants."

I read that, and wondered about it--but because other parts of the
label said "systemic," and no parts said "contact," and because of my
own experience with NO lessening of critters in my yard over the
years, I came to the conclusion that it is not a contact insecticide.
One thing that they claim about it somewhere is that it is safe after
it dries--but not while wet.



It is extremely toxic to amphibians (my toads, geckoes and
anoles.)

This might give me pause, but we have none. Just millions of little
brown garden snakes.



The residue on the leaves is toxic and will kill bees, ladybugs,
praying mantis and any other insect on contact. It states not to use this
product if bees are visiting the area. It is toxic to birds. Birds don't
eat roses. It is contact with the residue that remains on the leaves that
kills them. I've never had a bird that sat in the bush while I was
spraying, lifting each wing for me so I can get it all over.

If this is true, why do I have birds EVERYWHERE, nesting in the
hollies and oaks--finches, robins, mourning does, towhees,
mockinbirds, and those tiny titmouse things. Plus bats and families of
chipmunks. It makes no sense, Mike. I have never, ever found a single
dead bird anywhere on the property. In four years.


It states if
you get this on your skin, seek medical attention. This is straight from
the people who want me to buy the product, so I gotta believe it. I had
three buds so far with sawfly damage, all on seperate plants. It's not
panic time, yet. I'm no chemophobe - I spray for fungal diseases. If pests
become a nightmare, I will find a product and use it.

Well, congratualtions on being the first person in this group who can
at least discuss this issue without resorting to personal attacks. I
respect your decision, and appreciate the time you put into looking
into this.

By the way, when I called them - I had to probe to get Ortho to admit this.
They started out by saying "it's systemic, it doesn't kill on contact."
When I started pointing out what was on their own label and asking how in
the world it could be toxic to things that don't eat plants, I got put on
hold and eventually someone came back on the line and confirmed that it
does kill on contact as well. The first lady I spoke with was simply
reading the label off the website as I was. She complained about how slowly
Acrobat scrolled. She initially stopped as soon as she saw the word
"systemic" and concluded that it did not kill on contact until I encouraged
her to read farther. These are not experts manning their phone banks. Dig
deeper. I'm glad to hear that you have had good results with Orthenex and
don't seem to notice a population problem with your beneficials. I'm
worried about the amphibians, birds and bees, though. They particularly
stressed how toxic it is to amphibians. I'm just trying to be safe and not
sorry. Like I said, it's not panic time yet.

Thanks,

Mike
z8TX

Mike wrote in
:

I'm glad to hear that
you have had good results with Orthenex and don't seem to notice a
population problem with your beneficials. I'm worried about the
amphibians, birds and bees, though. They particularly stressed how
toxic it is to amphibians. I'm just trying to be safe and not sorry.
Like I said, it's not panic time yet.

Thanks for doing this research, Mike. I was interested myself because I
was bedeviled earlier this spring (for the first time) by rose slugs,
which are a variety of sawfly larvae, though I'm not sure if you have one
kind of sawfly you'll inevitably suffer from the other. A cursory look at
Baldo's insect site as well as some other horticultural-pest sites
suggests that the slug's method of attack is different, at least from
what I can tell. As you note, pruning actually takes care of rose-stem
sawfly larvae.

I don't have amphibians like you do (it would be an interesting addition
to the garden if I did) but I do have lots of non-plant life including
hummingbirds, bees, moths and butterflies (just saw a Mourning Cloak this
weekend...haven't seen one of them in almost forty years), and
earthworms, all of which I like to accommodate. The rose slug larvae seem
controllable with either hand-picking or insecticidal soap, used
carefully. It doesn't look as though you can find the rose-stem sawfly
larvae on the plant surface, however.

So far my own rose slug problem seems solved, at least till the next
cycle...fingers crossed for now. But this is the first year I've had so
many roses (85 so far) and the propensity for pests and problems has
increased for me as a result. It's been an eye-opener...though of course
the roses are worth it.

----

"Mike" wrote in message
...
That intolerant and holier than thou attitude doesn't do
anything for me and isn't very convincing. I don't shop at that nursery
anymore.

Wow, thinking about that has me irritated all over again. I think I'll go
up there and ask her for Malathion just to watch her collapse.

Mike
z8TX

Wow, that sounds great. Can you film that and post a clip?
I'd enjoy seeing that too! :Þ

JimS.
Seattle

Hello Mike,

I knew it! When you described the damage
I said to the greatest enabler on earth "Mike
got sawflies on his roses. Damn! I hate those
critters" I am sorry, I really wanted to be wrong
but the way you said they went around the bud
to me is a dead give away.

I don't really know what you can do in Texas
because of the heat, but here is a good link
to look at the possibilities. I got those *bahthards*
when they had just hatched and found some doing
their dirty deed around some of my canes, which
prompted a preemptive strike of horticultural oil
all over them, if for no other reason than because I
didn't have anything I could spray that like you,
didn't make me ill about my bees and my hummers.
It actually sort of worked, but in the end there is a
natural cycle to it and I just tried to be aware of
their presence and use Safer soap to drown them.
A cannon would have been more to my likening at
the time, but then there were the roses to consider.

Here is a link that may bring some comfort to you,
..
http://www.paweekly.com/PAW/morgue/r...21.GARDQA.html

is kind of naive but well intended and somehow comforting,
something a rosarian can use in the presence of winged
enemies.

As far as your photos, send them to



and I will be happy to post them for you with your name
and whatever you want to write about them.
Plain jpgs will do nicely. Don't worry about compression
or any some such. We can take care of it there.

Get yourself a cold drink, go visit with your roses and
don't let the little *bahthards* get you. At least you have
blooms in the making, in here we are still half asleep in frog
pajamas!

BTW, we have a client that BH and I call "huge tracts of
land" and I guess you will know why ....;)

Allegra