Thanks to Allegra, I have a rose order coming this way soon. G I
decided I couldn't live without Darlow's Enigma another year so I
ordered from Ashdown. Of course, one can't order just one rose, so in
the same package will arrive Secret Garden Musk and Purple Buttons.

I also have some cuttings rooting that I will need to place. They are
Safrano, Gruss an Auchen, Marie Van Houte and Maman Cochet.

Now I have to decide where the new presents might fit in my limited
garden space. So I'm looking for advice.

Can anyone tell me how the new teas (Safrano, Marie Van Houte, and
Maman Cochet) compare in size to say Lady Hillingdon or Mrs. BR Cant?

What about Gruss an Auchen? Can it be compared in size to Belinda's
Dream, Summer Snow, or Angel Face? Upright like an HT or more bushy?

And last but certainly not least, Can I grow Darlows Enigma and
Secret Garden Musk as large free standing roses like I do with
Crepuscule and Mrs. Cant, or will they need support like my regular
climbers, Reve d'O and Sombreuil?

I've used examples of roses they I already grow to comapre with the
new ones. It seems that will be more accurate than just giving a
mature size since climate plays such a large part.
TIA

(Julie) wrote in
om:

Thanks to Allegra, I have a rose order coming this way soon. G I
decided I couldn't live without Darlow's Enigma another year so I
ordered from Ashdown. Of course, one can't order just one rose, so in
the same package will arrive Secret Garden Musk and Purple Buttons.

Excellent choices! I have a Secret Garden Musk Climber arriving soon from
Ashdown; have the others already and think they're quite fab and gear.

Now I have to decide where the new presents might fit in my limited
garden space. So I'm looking for advice.

Can you tear up any lawn? I always do when I'm facing this situation. :-)

What about Gruss an Auchen? Can it be compared in size to Belinda's
Dream, Summer Snow, or Angel Face? Upright like an HT or more bushy?

About Angel Face's size, if I recall correctly (though I haven't grown
Angel Face since the early seventies). I've grown Gruss an Aachen from
various sources for years and think it's superb. For me it's never more
than two feet tall, sometimes less depending how it's pruned. Its habit
is bushy rather than upright.

And last but certainly not least, Can I grow Darlows Enigma and
Secret Garden Musk as large free standing roses like I do with
Crepuscule and Mrs. Cant, or will they need support like my regular
climbers, Reve d'O and Sombreuil?

I've seen a stand of Darlow's Enigma pruned into a four-foot-tall hedge
and it works; you may wish to let it climb though (mine is new as of last
fall and I'm not sure where it's going at the moment, but I'm inclined to
let it climb a pillar in the back garden).

Some folks have previously told me that Secret Garden will eat my home
but more recently those same folks seem to have revised their account and
swear that I can grow it in a smaller space. I suppose careful shaping
would help. I plan to try it as a stand-alone rose for now and will see
how it goes.

----

saki wrote:
(Julie) wrote in
om:

Thanks to Allegra, I have a rose order coming this way soon. G I
decided I couldn't live without Darlow's Enigma another year so I
ordered from Ashdown. Of course, one can't order just one rose, so in
the same package will arrive Secret Garden Musk and Purple Buttons.

Excellent choices! I have a Secret Garden Musk Climber arriving soon from
Ashdown; have the others already and think they're quite fab and gear.

I second the same "excellent choices!" exclamation about Purple Buttons.
PB took a little while to find its feet in its first year around here,
with may lackadaisical rose care, but when it settled down and in its
second year, it was quite fabulous.

Now I have to decide where the new presents might fit in my limited
garden space. So I'm looking for advice.

Can you tear up any lawn? I always do when I'm facing this situation. :-)

LOL! Depends on whether the other people in the household like their
lawns as much as we like our roses, I suppose.

What about Gruss an Auchen? Can it be compared in size to Belinda's
Dream, Summer Snow, or Angel Face? Upright like an HT or more bushy?

About Angel Face's size, if I recall correctly (though I haven't grown
Angel Face since the early seventies). I've grown Gruss an Aachen from
various sources for years and think it's superb. For me it's never more
than two feet tall, sometimes less depending how it's pruned. Its habit
is bushy rather than upright.

I don't grow AF or BD or SS, but I agree completely with what Saki is
saying about how Gruss an Aachen grows.

Some folks have previously told me that Secret Garden will eat my home
but more recently those same folks seem to have revised their account and
swear that I can grow it in a smaller space. I suppose careful shaping
would help. I plan to try it as a stand-alone rose for now and will see
how it goes.

Ummm ... IIRC, the SGM at San Jose Heritage is a nice 5' x 5' bush, at
least the last time I saw it. It has been a long time, but I will check
again when I have the chance.

--
Radika
California
USDA 9 / Sunset 15

Radika Kesavan wrote:

saki wrote:

Some folks have previously told me that Secret Garden will eat my home
but more recently those same folks seem to have revised their account and
swear that I can grow it in a smaller space. I suppose careful shaping
would help. I plan to try it as a stand-alone rose for now and will see
how it goes.

Ummm ... IIRC, the SGM at San Jose Heritage is a nice 5' x 5' bush, at
least the last time I saw it. It has been a long time, but I will check
again when I have the chance.

SGMCl has 5 to 6 foot canes in my garden, quite lax and lithe, with
plenty of prickles. The wood is a little delicate to galls, scratches
and assaults. I intend to grow mine as a large, fountain shaped shrub,
like a hybrid musk (big surprise there ;~) Hmm, I only planted it last
year, May 2002. Yes, it did not like living in a pot and needed to get
in the ground. The minute that sucker is ready to move out of a 2
gallon, I'd put it directly in the ground.

--
-=-
Cass
Zone 9 San Francisco Bay Area
http://home.attbi.com/~cassbernstein/index.html

Cass wrote

SGMCl has 5 to 6 foot canes in my garden, quite lax and lithe, with
plenty of prickles. The wood is a little delicate to galls, scratches
and assaults. I intend to grow mine as a large, fountain shaped shrub,
like a hybrid musk (big surprise there ;~) Hmm, I only planted it last
year, May 2002. Yes, it did not like living in a pot and needed to get
in the ground. The minute that sucker is ready to move out of a 2
gallon, I'd put it directly in the ground.

Thanks Cass. That's what I would like to do with mine also, just
wasn't sure it would stand up alone. I have some others growing that
way and I love the way the plants look. Mine's coming from Ashdown, 1
qt I think, so it shouldn't be long before it's ready for the ground.
Is the fragrance as good as I've heard? Honestly Shiva this is the
first rose I've ever bought 'specially for its reported smell.

saki wrote


Can you tear up any lawn? I always do when I'm facing this situation. :-)


As Radika responded, I don't live alone and the other person here
likes his grass. But I usually win a little more garden space when I
have a bunch of potted roses on the deck. After he walks by them
about 50 times and gets pricked, he decides they might be better off
in the ground. The other option is to put the pots on the lawn in
various locations. When he has to mow around them a few times, I
think I'll get my way. We addicts have to learn all these methods to
support our habit.

What about Gruss an Auchen? Can it be compared in size to Belinda's
Dream, Summer Snow, or Angel Face? Upright like an HT or more bushy?

About Angel Face's size, if I recall correctly (though I haven't grown
Angel Face since the early seventies). I've grown Gruss an Aachen from
various sources for years and think it's superb. For me it's never more
than two feet tall, sometimes less depending how it's pruned. Its habit
is bushy rather than upright.

That gives me a couple of choices. I have space for a smallish, bushy
rose at the base of White Maman Cochet, Cl. I was thinking of Purple
Buttons for this spot. I'd have to see the blooms on GaA first, to
make sure they don't clash. I expect them to be quite similar in
color. Angel FAce may come out this year, I'm getting tired of that
one cane and GaA could be the replacement.


And last but certainly not least, Can I grow Darlows Enigma and
Secret Garden Musk as large free standing roses like I do with
Crepuscule and Mrs. Cant, or will they need support like my regular
climbers, Reve d'O and Sombreuil?

I've seen a stand of Darlow's Enigma pruned into a four-foot-tall hedge
and it works; you may wish to let it climb though (mine is new as of last
fall and I'm not sure where it's going at the moment, but I'm inclined to
let it climb a pillar in the back garden).

I was kind of hoping this one would fountain out like SGM, but if it
doesn't I could replace Barbara Worl. She just isn't cutting it here,
beautiful blooms occasionally, but not enough of them or leaves for my
taste. This one may have to wait and see where I can find a space.


Some folks have previously told me that Secret Garden will eat my home
but more recently those same folks seem to have revised their account and
swear that I can grow it in a smaller space. I suppose careful shaping
would help. I plan to try it as a stand-alone rose for now and will see
how it goes.

I've never had one try to eat the house (yet), but a couple have grown
under the siding and the soffit. I'll keep this one away from the
house just in case. I'm not good at shaping them, I really like to
let them grow, unfortunatly I have a little lot and really like big
roses.

Thanks for the advice of experience.

Radika Kesavan wrote
saki wrote:
(Julie) wrote in
om:

Thanks to Allegra, I have a rose order coming this way soon. G I
decided I couldn't live without Darlow's Enigma another year so I
ordered from Ashdown. Of course, one can't order just one rose, so in
the same package will arrive Secret Garden Musk and Purple Buttons.

Excellent choices! I have a Secret Garden Musk Climber arriving soon from
Ashdown; have the others already and think they're quite fab and gear.

I second the same "excellent choices!" exclamation about Purple Buttons.
PB took a little while to find its feet in its first year around here,
with may lackadaisical rose care, but when it settled down and in its
second year, it was quite fabulous.

Thank you. PB has been on my wish list for a long time. I keep
trying roses of this color without much success, but I think this one
will work out here. At least I'm hopeful. The key will be its BS
resistance or lack thereof. If it can keep its leaves, I'll be
thrilled! The scent and number of blooms are secendary.


Now I have to decide where the new presents might fit in my limited
garden space. So I'm looking for advice.

Can you tear up any lawn? I always do when I'm facing this situation. :-)

LOL! Depends on whether the other people in the household like their
lawns as much as we like our roses, I suppose.

I see you understand my situation very well.


What about Gruss an Auchen? Can it be compared in size to Belinda's
Dream, Summer Snow, or Angel Face? Upright like an HT or more bushy?

About Angel Face's size, if I recall correctly (though I haven't grown
Angel Face since the early seventies). I've grown Gruss an Aachen from
various sources for years and think it's superb. For me it's never more
than two feet tall, sometimes less depending how it's pruned. Its habit
is bushy rather than upright.

I don't grow AF or BD or SS, but I agree completely with what Saki is
saying about how Gruss an Aachen grows.

That't good news. Small and bushy, I need to choose more roses like
this, instead of the really BIG ones that require so much space. But
I really, really like big roses!

(Julie) wrote in
om:

That gives me a couple of choices. I have space for a smallish, bushy
rose at the base of White Maman Cochet, Cl. I was thinking of Purple
Buttons for this spot. I'd have to see the blooms on GaA first, to
make sure they don't clash. I expect them to be quite similar in
color. Angel FAce may come out this year, I'm getting tired of that
one cane and GaA could be the replacement.

What clash are you trying to avoid? Form or color? White Maman Cochet
should not clash with Gruss an Aachen in either way, though to use them
together will add some pale tones to that section of the garden; Gruss
blooms are a lovely shell-pink/apricot at first but have a tendency to fade
after a few days, though not to pure white. Gruss's OGR form is quite
wonderful, IMHO, and its scent superb.

I could even see planting a couple Gruss's and a Purple Buttons at the base
of White Maman; this would be an interesting contrast of tones from pale to
deep. If you're trying to hide White Maman's base, Gruss might be the
better choice because it's a tad taller than Purple Buttons.

My other experience with Purple Buttons is that (a) it really likes heat,
and (b) it loves being in a pot. My Gruss's over the years have endured
being in a pot but really like the ground. I don't know if this helps (and
my So Cal experiences may not parallel yours) but I thought I'd mention it.

----

Julie wrote:

Cass wrote

SGMCl has 5 to 6 foot canes in my garden, quite lax and lithe, with
plenty of prickles. The wood is a little delicate to galls, scratches
and assaults. I intend to grow mine as a large, fountain shaped shrub,
like a hybrid musk (big surprise there ;~) Hmm, I only planted it last
year, May 2002. Yes, it did not like living in a pot and needed to get
in the ground. The minute that sucker is ready to move out of a 2
gallon, I'd put it directly in the ground.

Thanks Cass. That's what I would like to do with mine also, just
wasn't sure it would stand up alone. I have some others growing that
way and I love the way the plants look. Mine's coming from Ashdown, 1
qt I think, so it shouldn't be long before it's ready for the ground.
Is the fragrance as good as I've heard?

hmm. The clove scent is unusual, tho to my nose, nothing smells better
on the air than Excellenz von Schubert and Lavender Lassie. I'm talking
about smell from 10 feet. Up close, I'm a sucker for the bourbons. My
SGMC is grown on an open windy hillside. Maybe in a protected, warm,
close space, the scent would carry on the air. You're in a warm
climate, as I recall? You can let us know what you think, after it has
a chance to grow a bit.

--
-=-
Cass
Zone 9 San Francisco Bay Area
http://home.attbi.com/~cassbernstein/index.html

Julie wrote:
Radika Kesavan wrote:

I second the same "excellent choices!" exclamation about Purple Buttons.
PB took a little while to find its feet in its first year around here,
with may lackadaisical rose care, but when it settled down and in its
second year, it was quite fabulous.

Thank you. PB has been on my wish list for a long time. I keep
trying roses of this color without much success, but I think this one
will work out here. At least I'm hopeful. The key will be its BS
resistance or lack thereof. If it can keep its leaves, I'll be
thrilled! The scent and number of blooms are secendary.

Good luck. Out here, before it settled down, it suffered from rust, in a
sunny and open spot, which is very unusual. Every time I removed the
rusty leaves, new and vigorous ones sprung up very quickly. Needed a lot
of water, and finally, settled down beautifully with lots of leaves,
flowers and everything. I will be very eager to know about its blackspot
resistance. Since it is a gorgeous rose, I wish for your sake that it is
able to hold on. It might take more than a year for it before you can
given an honest assessment of whether or not it is a keeper.

LOL! Depends on whether the other people in the household like their
lawns as much as we like our roses, I suppose.

I see you understand my situation very well.

Heh Heh. Right.

Gruss an Aachen

That't good news. Small and bushy, I need to choose more roses like
this, instead of the really BIG ones that require so much space. But
I really, really like big roses!

Same here, Julie. Big, tall, beautiful and handsome, very productive,
self-supporting, disease free - I might as well be describing what I
would like to see in an adolescent girl or boy :-).

--
Radika
California
USDA 9 / Sunset 15

Radika Kesavan wrote

(Purple Buttons)
Good luck. Out here, before it settled down, it suffered from rust, in a
sunny and open spot, which is very unusual. Every time I removed the
rusty leaves, new and vigorous ones sprung up very quickly. Needed a lot
of water, and finally, settled down beautifully with lots of leaves,
flowers and everything. I will be very eager to know about its blackspot
resistance. Since it is a gorgeous rose, I wish for your sake that it is
able to hold on. It might take more than a year for it before you can
given an honest assessment of whether or not it is a keeper.


Rust is almost nonexistant here, I've never seen it on a rose, but I
saw something that I *think* was rust on a plumeria in a nursery.
This is the home of choice for BS (and thrips and aphids and...).
I've never given up on a rose in less than two years, If its color and
scent are as advertised, I'll give it plenty of time to prove itself.

LOL! Depends on whether the other people in the household like their
lawns as much as we like our roses, I suppose.

I see you understand my situation very well.

Heh Heh. Right.

Gruss an Aachen

That't good news. Small and bushy, I need to choose more roses like
this, instead of the really BIG ones that require so much space. But
I really, really like big roses!

Same here, Julie. Big, tall, beautiful and handsome, very productive,
self-supporting, disease free - I might as well be describing what I
would like to see in an adolescent girl or boy :-).

or a man....vbg

Cass wrote

( Secret Garden Musk Climber)
hmm. The clove scent is unusual, tho to my nose, nothing smells better
on the air than Excellenz von Schubert and Lavender Lassie. I'm talking
about smell from 10 feet. Up close, I'm a sucker for the bourbons. My
SGMC is grown on an open windy hillside. Maybe in a protected, warm,
close space, the scent would carry on the air. You're in a warm
climate, as I recall? You can let us know what you think, after it has
a chance to grow a bit.

I believe SGMC is thought to be a descendant of R. Mouchata(sp?) and
as such has a powerful and unique fragrance. I've never seen or
smelled R.M only read so much about its scent I had to try SGMC.
I don't have any roses whose scent catches my attention from across
the garden. I can smell Belinda's Dream when I pass by, but I must
stick my nose into most of them to get any smell. And even then
several that are supposed to be fragrant are not. Defective nose I
suppose.

saki wrote

What clash are you trying to avoid? Form or color? White Maman Cochet
should not clash with Gruss an Aachen in either way, though to use them
together will add some pale tones to that section of the garden; Gruss
blooms are a lovely shell-pink/apricot at first but have a tendency to fade
after a few days, though not to pure white. Gruss's OGR form is quite
wonderful, IMHO, and its scent superb.

Color. I like highly contrasting colors like purple with orange, the
pinks are often close but clashing to my eyes. Your mention of the
apricot in GaA makes me think I would not like it near White Maman
Cochet.

I could even see planting a couple Gruss's and a Purple Buttons at the base
of White Maman; this would be an interesting contrast of tones from pale to
deep. If you're trying to hide White Maman's base, Gruss might be the
better choice because it's a tad taller than Purple Buttons.

I'm trying to cover the base of WMC, but not the canes on its trellis.
I find the canes very interesting, can't really describe it, but I
enjoy seeing at them exposed. That is so unlike me, who can't stand
to see naked roses, but it just fits on this one. (Maybe because it's
a climber and I think it should look that way?)

My other experience with Purple Buttons is that (a) it really likes heat,
and (b) it loves being in a pot. My Gruss's over the years have endured
being in a pot but really like the ground. I don't know if this helps (and
my So Cal experiences may not parallel yours) but I thought I'd mention it.


It does help, I had considered putting PB in a pot at the base of WMC.
The pot would help conceal the base and give the roots on PB a space
of their own.
I will be able to keep PB plenty of heat, I only hope it appreciates
the humidity as well!

Cass wrote

( Secret Garden Musk Climber)
hmm. The clove scent is unusual, tho to my nose, nothing smells better
on the air than Excellenz von Schubert and Lavender Lassie. I'm talking
about smell from 10 feet. Up close, I'm a sucker for the bourbons. My
SGMC is grown on an open windy hillside. Maybe in a protected, warm,
close space, the scent would carry on the air. You're in a warm
climate, as I recall? You can let us know what you think, after it has
a chance to grow a bit.

I believe SGMC is thought to be a descendant of R. Mouchata(sp?) and
as such has a powerful and unique fragrance. I've never seen or
smelled R.M only read so much about its scent I had to try SGMC.
I don't have any roses whose scent catches my attention from across
the garden. I can smell Belinda's Dream when I pass by, but I must
stick my nose into most of them to get any smell. And even then
several that are supposed to be fragrant are not. Defective nose I
suppose.

saki wrote

What clash are you trying to avoid? Form or color? White Maman Cochet
should not clash with Gruss an Aachen in either way, though to use them
together will add some pale tones to that section of the garden; Gruss
blooms are a lovely shell-pink/apricot at first but have a tendency to fade
after a few days, though not to pure white. Gruss's OGR form is quite
wonderful, IMHO, and its scent superb.

Color. I like highly contrasting colors like purple with orange, the
pinks are often close but clashing to my eyes. Your mention of the
apricot in GaA makes me think I would not like it near White Maman
Cochet.

I could even see planting a couple Gruss's and a Purple Buttons at the base
of White Maman; this would be an interesting contrast of tones from pale to
deep. If you're trying to hide White Maman's base, Gruss might be the
better choice because it's a tad taller than Purple Buttons.

I'm trying to cover the base of WMC, but not the canes on its trellis.
I find the canes very interesting, can't really describe it, but I
enjoy seeing at them exposed. That is so unlike me, who can't stand
to see naked roses, but it just fits on this one. (Maybe because it's
a climber and I think it should look that way?)

My other experience with Purple Buttons is that (a) it really likes heat,
and (b) it loves being in a pot. My Gruss's over the years have endured
being in a pot but really like the ground. I don't know if this helps (and
my So Cal experiences may not parallel yours) but I thought I'd mention it.


It does help, I had considered putting PB in a pot at the base of WMC.
The pot would help conceal the base and give the roots on PB a space
of their own.
I will be able to keep PB plenty of heat, I only hope it appreciates
the humidity as well!