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Old 11-05-2003, 12:08 AM
Me
 
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Default problem with my roses-need help

My rose plants have not been producing good roses this year. It looks like
they are brownish on the outside.

Before they bloom, while they bloom, they look 20% dead.

One store sold me generic disease control, one store said it looks fine, and
another store said although he couldn't find any thrips, it had all the
symptoms.

I'd tend to believe the last person, because he sold me on a product his
store didn't carry and sent me to another store. He had a pebble based
systemic solution that would take long to take effect and suggest I go to
another
store and buy the liquid Ortho systemic.

I have a picture of one of the roses at
http://home.earthlink.net/~cenews/garden/

I can email other pictures if anyone would like to take a closer look. I had
a hard time getting the first on the web site.

I have eight different rose plants in my front yard and all have hte same
symptons. I live in the San Fernando Valley Foothills in L.A.


Thanks.




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Old 11-05-2003, 02:32 AM
Cass
 
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Default problem with my roses-need help

Me wrote:

My rose plants have not been producing good roses this year. It looks like
they are brownish on the outside....

Before they bloom, while they bloom, they look 20% dead.
store and buy the liquid Ortho systemic.


Careful. I've never used that one, but some sprays will really stain
your flowers. Maybe someone will post their knowledge about that
product.

I have a picture of one of the roses at
http://home.earthlink.net/~cenews/garden/



Doesn't look like thrips to me. Have you cut one, taken it inside, and
shaken it over a piece of white paper? If it's thrips, you see dozen
and dozens of little tiny flecks.

Your foliage looks fabulous. Is there any chance you have rain damage
from the untimely storm last week?

--
-=-
Cass
Zone 9 San Francisco Bay Area
http://home.attbi.com/~cassbernstein/index.html
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Old 11-05-2003, 03:56 AM
Radika Kesavan
 
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Default problem with my roses-need help

Me wrote:

My rose plants have not been producing good roses this year. It
looks like they are brownish on the outside.

Before they bloom, while they bloom, they look 20% dead.


I am not quite sure what you mean by that last sentence.

One store sold me generic disease control, one store said it looks
fine, and another store said although he couldn't find any thrips, it
had all the symptoms.

I'd tend to believe the last person, because he sold me on a product
his store didn't carry and sent me to another store. He had a pebble
based systemic solution that would take long to take effect and
suggest I go to another store and buy the liquid Ortho systemic.

I have a picture of one of the roses at
http://home.earthlink.net/~cenews/garden/

I can email other pictures if anyone would like to take a closer
look. I had a hard time getting the first on the web site.


To my eyes, it looks like rain damage, even as Cass had suggested that
you consider the possibility. As she says your foliage looks very
healthy, at least in that picture.

I have eight different rose plants in my front yard and all have hte
same symptons. I live in the San Fernando Valley Foothills in L.A.


You might consider talking to one of your local ARS Consulting
Rosarians. They have no commercial affiliations when they help folks
with their rose questions, are well-trained and do all of this as a
service to community, charging no fees. Here is a link:

http://www.geocities.com/sfvroses/te...rosarians.html

In fact, one of the CRs for your area, Jim Delahanty, is normally a
frequent poster on this forum though we have not heard from him in a
while here, must be a little too busy with Spring Rose Shows or something.

--
Radika
California
USDA 9 / Sunset 15

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Old 11-05-2003, 05:20 AM
Shiva
 
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Default problem with my roses-need help

Me wrote:

My rose plants have not been producing good roses this year. It looks

like they are brownish on the outside.

My roses look like this when they had a bacterial infection called
Botrytis. I had more of it when I did not spray for fungus. Since I began
using the systemic Orthenex recommended to you, I have not had any
botrytis. I cannot explain why, since Orthenex is a combination
insecticide and fungicide. Some say that there is a higher incidence of
Botrytis in roses that are not protected from insects and fungal disease,
because the injuries caused by both help facilitate the bactierial
infection. If you use Orthenex, keep your spray on a coarse setting (not
fine, which is too easy to breathe) and wear long sleeves and gloves and
eye protection. A respirator cannot hurt--but the main danger of this
stuff is getting it in your eyes or on your skin in its concentrated form.
I use Latex gloves bought at the grocery store for 10 for a dollar and
standard garden goggles. Orthenex works very well here in swampy NC.

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Old 11-05-2003, 09:44 AM
torgo
 
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Default problem with my roses-need help

The geometry of the photo suggests Cass and Radika are correct (as
always - no surprise there at all) and that damage from rain or other
liquid is the prime suspect.

The foliage looks remarkable. The buds on each side of the open bloom
show no ill effects. The photo is close up and enlarged enough so
that aphids or other parasites would likely be visible, and not a
single creepy crawly is anywhere to be seen.

In short, except for the brown spots on the open bloom, this appears
to be an exceptionally healthy plant.

Before you inflict Agent Orange upon your garden, try a little mental
origami. Pretend you're watching time-lapse photography in reverse so
that the rose bloom closes back up into the original bud. (ie -
imagine it "un-blooming".) Seems to me that virtually all of the bad
spots would end up overlapped in only one or two places in the closed
bud.

In other words, when the bloom was in the just-about-to-pop stage,
just like the buds in the photo on the left and right of the bloom, a
drop or two of liquid got into the "cracks" in the vulnerable bud,
soaking through many layers of petals and staining, burning, rotting,
or otherwise damaging them. Then when the bud opened, you got the
paper snowflake effect, with the bad spots scattered all around the
bloom as the stained petals separated.

The rest of the plant is quite impressive, and I'd be terrified to use
chemical agents on such magnificent foliage. The side effects would
likely outweigh the benefits.

The plant itself seems to be in no state of peril whatsoever. Unless
the photo is misleading or this plant is not indicative of the rest of
your roses, I'd just wait and watch the next wave of blooms and see if
they do any better.



On Sat, 10 May 2003 22:03:36 GMT, "Me"
wrote:

My rose plants have not been producing good roses this year. It looks like
they are brownish on the outside.

Before they bloom, while they bloom, they look 20% dead.

One store sold me generic disease control, one store said it looks fine, and
another store said although he couldn't find any thrips, it had all the
symptoms.

I'd tend to believe the last person, because he sold me on a product his
store didn't carry and sent me to another store. He had a pebble based
systemic solution that would take long to take effect and suggest I go to
another
store and buy the liquid Ortho systemic.

I have a picture of one of the roses at
http://home.earthlink.net/~cenews/garden/

I can email other pictures if anyone would like to take a closer look. I had
a hard time getting the first on the web site.

I have eight different rose plants in my front yard and all have hte same
symptons. I live in the San Fernando Valley Foothills in L.A.


Thanks.





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Old 11-05-2003, 05:08 PM
Me
 
Posts: n/a
Default problem with my roses-need help

Thanks for all your comments.


It seems like I have had this problem for the last six weeks, probably since
March. We've had rain about every three weeks so maybe that's why it's show
up all year. I didn't realize water would do that damage.

I did try shaking over a white piece of paper and I didn't see any bugs.

A couple of my plants do show a little bit of yellow in them, what is that a
sign of?

One thing I didn't mention is I use the rose fertilizer in a blue container
every six weeks. I believe it's called Bayer? It comes in pebble form, not
liquid.

Thanks again.


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Old 11-05-2003, 06:32 PM
Radika Kesavan
 
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Default problem with my roses-need help

torgo wrote:
The geometry of the photo suggests Cass and Radika are correct (as
always - no surprise there at all) and that damage from rain or other
liquid is the prime suspect.


Torgo, you are absolutely right about Cass, she is a gem; as for me, it
is a great overstatement (just ask my husband who is laughing at me for
wanting a Garden Claw for cultivation - heheheh - but he is indulgent
and I have a brand new one today!), but I am grateful for your kindness
in saying so. Thanks!

I really do think it is very likely water damage in Me's rose. I enjoyed
reading your mental origami and your description of how water damage
happens starting with an unfurled bud.

We have had more untimely rain in California, even in SoCal, this spring
than we can remember from the last seven years running. OTOH, the first
wild fire has already started in New Mexico, so we should not compalin
about the rain.

It is bright and sunny now, but sigh ... more rain is on its way later
in the week. I am just going to have to make hay while the sun shines
and go cultivate the soil where I got rid of a whole lot of St. John's
Wort (a pestilential but gorgeous plant, never ever plant it unless you
have some acreage to cover) around my beautiful Susan Louise (a hybrid
Rosa gigantea). The husband can laugh all he wants, but when one does
not have the muscle mass to use a spade for cultivating the soil, a
smaller person needs better tools. The Garden Claw Gold works so
beautifully that I think I am going to be thankful for its purchase for
a long time to come!

--
Radika
California
USDA 9 / Sunset 15

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Old 11-05-2003, 06:32 PM
Me
 
Posts: n/a
Default problem with my roses-need help

I was fishing through my roses and stuck my fingers through a rose that's
just blooming.

It looks like there are ants in the rose, or something small and black.

Are those ants, what do "thrips" look like?
I noticed them in two of my yellow roses.

Thanks,
Craig


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Old 11-05-2003, 06:32 PM
Radika Kesavan
 
Posts: n/a
Default problem with my roses-need help

Me wrote:
I was fishing through my roses and stuck my fingers through a rose that's
just blooming.

It looks like there are ants in the rose, or something small and black.

Are those ants, what do "thrips" look like?
I noticed them in two of my yellow roses.



Craig,

Here are some pictures of thrips and thrip damage:

http://members.tripod.com/sactorose/...owerthrips.jpg
http://members.tripod.com/sactorose/...thrips-dam.jpg
http://members.tripod.com/sactorose/...hrips-dam2.jpg
http://members.tripod.com/sactorose/...hrips-dam4.jpg
http://members.tripod.com/sactorose/...hrips-dam5.jpg

And this is an excellent site for all manner of rose diseases and pests,
set up by Dr. Baldo Villegas, an entomologist who lives and works in
Sacramento:

http://members.tripod.com/sactorose/irosepests.html

Remember that Cass, Torgo and myself were all very impressed with the
health of the foliage in that picture whose link you posted. I doubt
very much that you have thrip damage on that rose, and also, it is a bit
too early for that - it is more likely when the temperatures get get
quite high.

--
Radika
California
USDA 9 / Sunset 15

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Old 11-05-2003, 07:32 PM
Cass
 
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Default problem with my roses-need help

Me wrote:

A couple of my plants do show a little bit of yellow in them, what is that a
sign of?


Roses, like every plant, even evergreen conifers, will replace their
foliage, and it doesn't just happen in the winter. As your rose
continues to grow, you will notice that the leaves closest to the bud
eye that is growing will age before all the rest of the foliage. These
leaves (usually just one bottom 5 or 7-leaf leaflet), as they age, are
the first to contract fungus - blackspot and rust especially -
presumably because they are senescent (getting old). *This pattern is
normal.* Don't believe that they need more fertilizer or more chemical
sprays or more water just because they don't look perfect every minute.

So study your plant more closely. If the yellowing foliage is close to
a V in the growth of your rose and if it is just one leaflet, it is a
normal process. Just rub or snip off the dead or dying stuff and remove
it from your garden.

A different problem is spider mites, and Baldo's site has good pictures
of what spider mite damage looks like.


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Old 11-05-2003, 11:32 PM
Shiva
 
Posts: n/a
Default problem with my roses-need help

On Sun, 11 May 2003 15:06:56 GMT, "Me"
wrote:

Thanks for all your comments.


It seems like I have had this problem for the last six weeks, probably since
March. We've had rain about every three weeks so maybe that's why it's show
up all year.


Can you please clarify the statement above? Are you saying that it has
only rained once in three weeks or that it has rained every day for
three weeks? If the former, I wonder how anyone could call what you
have "water damage."




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Old 11-05-2003, 11:32 PM
Shiva
 
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Default problem with my roses-need help

On Sun, 11 May 2003 07:03:15 GMT, torgo
wrote:

The geometry of the photo suggests Cass and Radika are correct (as
always - no surprise there at all) and that damage from rain or other
liquid is the prime suspect.


Do you know what botrytis looks like, torgo?


In short, except for the brown spots on the open bloom, this appears
to be an exceptionally healthy plant.


This is what botrytis looks like.

Before you inflict Agent Orange upon your garden, try a little mental
origami. Pretend you're watching time-lapse photography in reverse so
that the rose bloom closes back up into the original bud. (ie -
imagine it "un-blooming".) Seems to me that virtually all of the bad
spots would end up overlapped in only one or two places in the closed
bud.

In other words, when the bloom was in the just-about-to-pop stage,
just like the buds in the photo on the left and right of the bloom, a
drop or two of liquid got into the "cracks" in the vulnerable bud,
soaking through many layers of petals and staining, burning, rotting,
or otherwise damaging them. Then when the bud opened, you got the
paper snowflake effect, with the bad spots scattered all around the
bloom as the stained petals separated.


Quite creative, and a nicely turned phrase i.e. "mental origami."
However--roses LOVE water, on their foliage, blooms, canes, roots. I
wash mine down twice a week, buds and all. I SPRAY every ten days with
Orthenex, and I have never, ever seen what this poster's photos
displays except in the few instances when I have had botrytis on my
roses. If your theory were plausible, all my roses would look like
that.

The rest of the plant is quite impressive, and I'd be terrified to use
chemical agents on such magnificent foliage. The side effects would
likely outweigh the benefits.


This is complete nonsense. My foliage is more beautiful than it ever
was before I protected it from chewing and sucking insects and fungal
disease with Orthenex.


The plant itself seems to be in no state of peril whatsoever. Unless
the photo is misleading or this plant is not indicative of the rest of
your roses, I'd just wait and watch the next wave of blooms and see if
they do any better.


While "wait and see" isn't bad advice, it is no fun to have plants
that "although they are in no state of peril" produce roses that rot
on the stems before opening.

If anyone knows of anything that DOES cause a rose to rot on the stem
before it opens, do let us know. This is precisely what the poster
said is happening.





On Sat, 10 May 2003 22:03:36 GMT, "Me"
wrote:

My rose plants have not been producing good roses this year. It looks like
they are brownish on the outside.

Before they bloom, while they bloom, they look 20% dead.

One store sold me generic disease control, one store said it looks fine, and
another store said although he couldn't find any thrips, it had all the
symptoms.

I'd tend to believe the last person, because he sold me on a product his
store didn't carry and sent me to another store. He had a pebble based
systemic solution that would take long to take effect and suggest I go to
another
store and buy the liquid Ortho systemic.

I have a picture of one of the roses at
http://home.earthlink.net/~cenews/garden/

I can email other pictures if anyone would like to take a closer look. I had
a hard time getting the first on the web site.

I have eight different rose plants in my front yard and all have hte same
symptons. I live in the San Fernando Valley Foothills in L.A.


Thanks.




  #13   Report Post  
Old 12-05-2003, 03:44 AM
Me
 
Posts: n/a
Default problem with my roses-need help

Thanks for the photos. I believe I've seen the western flower thrips in my
roses.
I'm going to check my neighbors roses and wait for another crop of blooms
(w/o rain) before using any chemicals.

Thanks for the help.


  #14   Report Post  
Old 12-05-2003, 03:56 AM
Radika Kesavan
 
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Default problem with my roses-need help

Me wrote:
Thanks for the photos. I believe I've seen the western flower thrips in my
roses.
I'm going to check my neighbors roses and wait for another crop of blooms
(w/o rain) before using any chemicals.

Thanks for the help.


It is a pleasure, Craig. Wise approach.

As for botrytis, that is more of a possibility here in the wet Northern
California than in your neck of the woods, I would imagine. If you are
interested, Baldo has pictures of Botrytis also at his website. Do check
them out - your blossom did not show the characteristic spotted pattern
to my eyes, but you ought to check this out by oyur own eyes, I think.


--
Radika
California
USDA 9 / Sunset 15

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Old 12-05-2003, 08:20 PM
torgo
 
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Default problem with my roses-need help

Yo - getting a little harsh there, weren't you, Shiva?


Do you know what botrytis looks like, torgo?


Well, gee, do you know what a vegetable garden looks like, Shiva?

Your info is incorrect. Botrytis is NOT a bacterial infection. It's
a fungus. And it's certainly not some mysterious rare ailment known
only to experienced rosarians. If you grow strawberries, you'll have
it as sure as the morning dew. Tomato plants and string beans are
vulnerable to it as well. And if you ever venture to try your hand at
scuppernongs, it could ruin your crop in a single weekend.

You're not exactly presenting a news flash here. Yes, I've seen the
effects of Botrytis cinerea in many forms, most of which are quite
disgusting.

Since he's had these problems the entire bloom season thus far, why
has he seen no symptoms of botrytis other than rose blooms that look
"20% dead"? Where are the fuzzy lesions, the blackened growths in
the rotting areas, or the grayish mold? Why hasn't there been
accelerated aging and rotting of the blooms? Why have the spot
symptoms not spread to the rest of the plant by now? And why haven't
anything other than the rose bushes been affected? Botrytis will hit
anything from bulbs to ground cover plants to fruits and vegetables to
cacti. (It's not proud. Or tired.) Yet all he's getting are some
spots, only on the roses, only on the blooms, and based on the photo,
apparently only on the outermost parts of the petals.



The rest of the plant is quite impressive, and I'd be terrified to use
chemical agents on such magnificent foliage. The side effects would
likely outweigh the benefits.


This is complete nonsense. My foliage is more beautiful than it ever
was before I protected it from chewing and sucking insects and fungal
disease with Orthenex.


Good for you. But you call it nonsense to say the bad effects of
unnecessary use of hazardous chemicals could outweigh the good???
You didn't even ask him if he had so much as a sage plant before you
recommended spraying a product whose runoff alone could render nearby
fruits or herbs inedible. Nonsense, my ass. Put that decaf stuff
away and switch to a real brand.

Since you're so adamant botrytis is the cause of the problem, why on
earth are you recommending he use Orthenex? That would take care of
thrips, but for botrytis you might just as well tell him to use Mill's
Magic Mix.


Quite creative, and a nicely turned phrase i.e. "mental origami."
However--roses LOVE water, on their foliage, blooms, canes, roots. I
wash mine down twice a week, buds and all. I SPRAY every ten days with


Creativity has nothing to do with it. The only symptoms are those
spots, and he indicates that the spots are there as soon as the bloom
opens. So whatever the culprit, be it acid rain, botrytis spores,
thrips, or laser beams from outer space, it's happening specifically
within the bud, either before the bud opens or as it is in the process
of opening.

Either way, the petals are densely packed together at that stage,
which suggests that many petals become affected at once, as opposed to
each petal getting its own spot in separate incidents. There are no
holes in the petals, just the stain/burn spots, pointing to a liquid
medium as the likely method of contamination.

Put it together, and damage from rain is a suspect. Since you've
completely dismissed the possibility that saturation of tender tissues
by liquid with pH factor significantly below 7.0 accompanied by
exposure to UV radiation can cause discoloration, get a sheet of onion
skin (tracing paper) and a cotton swab, put some lemon juice in a
Dixie cup, and ask a nine year old to show you the invisible ink
trick.

I'll leave your "roses love water" bit alone, other than to point out
that if botrytis is present, washing the plant down like that would be
an extremely unwise move.

Botrytis is one possibility, but you shouldn't be giving such an
acidic response to any alternative hypotheses.


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