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Old 17-05-2003, 09:08 PM
chelatna
 
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Default bareroot question

I live in Fairbanks Alaska (zone 1, but up to 80s and 90s in the summer)
and I just got my four J&P bareroot plants this week. Yippee!! In the
past I've kept my roses in big pots and wintered them in my garage,
which works OK. However, I'm starting to run out of room on my patio for
all these pots (Ok, I'll admit to impulse buying the four roses without
really thinking it through, but hey, is that really SO bad?) My question
is: I have several large raised beds that I use for annuals mostly and
I'm thinking of putting the roses in them. I'd have to dig them up in
the fall, though. *Before* I plant them, does anyone have any
suggestions? How would roses cope with being dug up and replanted every
fall and spring? Would it be better just to pot them and squeeze a
little tighter on the patio? If planting them in the beds is OK, is
there anything I should do at the beginning to make it easier to dig in
the fall?
Thanks in advance!
Kim

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Old 18-05-2003, 12:56 AM
GamePlayer No. 1058
 
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Default bareroot question

Heres what I do,
I live in the moutains of southern california, and I've tried to grow citrus
trees in my yard, but they always die over the winter with temps getting
down to about 13f.

So, I plant them in containers, and put the containers in the ground, then
when winter comes I just pull up the containers and bring them into the
house and keep them under grow lights. Then the next year I check to see
that they are not root bound, if so I just replant them in bigger
containers. So far I've only had to repot them once, and these are dwarf
citrus trees by the way. I would just keep them in containers above ground
on my driveway, but it gets too hot here in the summer and they wither from
the heat since the roots get so hot.

I wonder how roses would handle this? Just a thought.


"chelatna" wrote in message
...
: I live in Fairbanks Alaska (zone 1, but up to 80s and 90s in the summer)
: and I just got my four J&P bareroot plants this week. Yippee!! In the
: past I've kept my roses in big pots and wintered them in my garage,
: which works OK. However, I'm starting to run out of room on my patio for
: all these pots (Ok, I'll admit to impulse buying the four roses without
: really thinking it through, but hey, is that really SO bad?) My question
: is: I have several large raised beds that I use for annuals mostly and
: I'm thinking of putting the roses in them. I'd have to dig them up in
: the fall, though. *Before* I plant them, does anyone have any
: suggestions? How would roses cope with being dug up and replanted every
: fall and spring? Would it be better just to pot them and squeeze a
: little tighter on the patio? If planting them in the beds is OK, is
: there anything I should do at the beginning to make it easier to dig in
: the fall?
: Thanks in advance!
: Kim
:


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Old 18-05-2003, 03:08 PM
Unique Too
 
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Default bareroot question

Kim,
How's this, someone from Florida, zone 9, giving advice to someone in zone 1?
g
My suggestion would be to put the roses in the containers, then place the
containers in the raised bed. That way when you remove them in the fall you
would keep most of the roots intact and they should come back more easily next
spring. You could even build another raised bed frame (without soil), place
your pots inside and surround them with mulch.
Hey, I know when you have more roses than space, you can get very creative!

chelatna writes:

I live in Fairbanks Alaska (zone 1, but up to 80s and 90s in the summer)
and I just got my four J&P bareroot plants this week. Yippee!! In the
past I've kept my roses in big pots and wintered them in my garage,
which works OK. However, I'm starting to run out of room on my patio for
all these pots (Ok, I'll admit to impulse buying the four roses without
really thinking it through, but hey, is that really SO bad?) My question
is: I have several large raised beds that I use for annuals mostly and
I'm thinking of putting the roses in them. I'd have to dig them up in
the fall, though. *Before* I plant them, does anyone have any
suggestions? How would roses cope with being dug up and replanted every
fall and spring? Would it be better just to pot them and squeeze a
little tighter on the patio? If planting them in the beds is OK, is
there anything I should do at the beginning to make it easier to dig in
the fall?



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Old 18-05-2003, 08:44 PM
Tim Tompkins
 
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Default bareroot question

They will have to be protected to survive a zone 1 winter.

You might try 'container in container'. Put a large empty container in the
ground and then insert the container which contains the rose. The advantage
is better temperature stability and reduced moisture loss.

If you dig them up each year they will remain small plants and not have a
change to develop beyond a 'first year'
plant.

Tim

"chelatna" wrote in message
...
I live in Fairbanks Alaska (zone 1, but up to 80s and 90s in the summer)
and I just got my four J&P bareroot plants this week. Yippee!! In the
past I've kept my roses in big pots and wintered them in my garage,
which works OK. However, I'm starting to run out of room on my patio for
all these pots (Ok, I'll admit to impulse buying the four roses without
really thinking it through, but hey, is that really SO bad?) My question
is: I have several large raised beds that I use for annuals mostly and
I'm thinking of putting the roses in them. I'd have to dig them up in
the fall, though. *Before* I plant them, does anyone have any
suggestions? How would roses cope with being dug up and replanted every
fall and spring? Would it be better just to pot them and squeeze a
little tighter on the patio? If planting them in the beds is OK, is
there anything I should do at the beginning to make it easier to dig in
the fall?
Thanks in advance!
Kim



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Old 19-05-2003, 04:32 PM
Theo Asir
 
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Default bareroot question

How's this, someone from Florida, zone 9, giving advice to someone in zone
1?
g


Oh! I don't find it so funny.
Just do the exact opposite of
what you do in florida.
Simple Huh! Heh!

Man Zone 1. And here
I have trouble w/ -20F weather.

I'd say stick to what works for you.

As far as burying and piling w/ mulch
stuff goes it has very limited use even
here in Z5.

If you want to try buring remember
you have to get below the frost line.
Here it is @ 24 inches. If you do not the
roots will freeze & your rose will die.

--
Theo in Zone 5
Kansas City




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Old 19-05-2003, 08:20 PM
Unique Too
 
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Default bareroot question

"Theo Asir" writes:

As far as burying and piling w/ mulch
stuff goes it has very limited use even
here in Z5.

If you want to try buring remember
you have to get below the frost line.
Here it is @ 24 inches. If you do not the
roots will freeze & your rose will die.


Theo, I guess I wasn't clear. I wasn't suggesting she leave them there all
winter. She said she was bringing her potted plants in the garage and I was
thinking of doing the same thing with these. They will still be potted plants,
just not on her patio where she's out of space. She can bring them inside
without disturbing the roots as much as planting and digging them up every
year. It was just to give her another location for roses in the summer.
Julie
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Old 19-05-2003, 08:32 PM
Theo Asir
 
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Default bareroot question


Right you are.

I thought it was the garage running
out of space and not the patio.

Your suggestions are very
appropriate.

--
Theo in Zone 5
Kansas City


"Unique Too" wrote in message
...
"Theo Asir" writes:

As far as burying and piling w/ mulch
stuff goes it has very limited use even
here in Z5.

If you want to try buring remember
you have to get below the frost line.
Here it is @ 24 inches. If you do not the
roots will freeze & your rose will die.


Theo, I guess I wasn't clear. I wasn't suggesting she leave them there

all
winter. She said she was bringing her potted plants in the garage and I

was
thinking of doing the same thing with these. They will still be potted

plants,
just not on her patio where she's out of space. She can bring them inside
without disturbing the roots as much as planting and digging them up every
year. It was just to give her another location for roses in the summer.
Julie



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Old 19-05-2003, 11:32 PM
chelatna
 
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Default bareroot question

If you want to try buring remember
you have to get below the frost line.
Here it is @ 24 inches. If you do not the
roots will freeze & your rose will die.


Some people here on the hills can get away with mulching, mounding, etc.
Hills can be up to Z3 or Z4 even on the south sides. I'm in a valley.
:-( I put some daffy bulbs in the prospective rose bed last fall and
covered it really well, figuring that if they survived roses might, but
alas, I finally dug in last week to find some really icky squishy bulbs.

One question I do have is: honestly how cold can a rose take, say,
overnight? Can they do down to the 20s or lower if it warms up in the
daytime? I think I took mine in too soon last fall, right after the
second or third frost, and they had a hard time going dormant.

Thanks, Kim

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Old 19-05-2003, 11:32 PM
chelatna
 
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Default bareroot question

Theo Asir wrote:

I thought it was the garage running out of space and not the patio.


Right now, it's the patio with a space problem. Come September I will
have to start getting creative with the space in the garage too. Oddly
enough, would you believe that since my garage is heated the biggest
problem I had last winter was it getting too warm (50s) so the roses
kept putting out shoots. At least they survived. ;-)

Kim

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Old 19-05-2003, 11:44 PM
chelatna
 
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Default bareroot question

Tim Tompkins wrote:

If you dig them up each year they will remain small plants and not have a
change to develop beyond a 'first year'
plant.

Following up on this, how often do you think the potted plants should be
repotted or potted up? I've got them in the big resin pots from Sam's
Club (14 and 18 inches I think) but at some point I will need something
bigger like a half barrel. What are the signs a rose needs a bigger pot?

Thanks! Kim



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Old 20-05-2003, 12:08 AM
Theo Asir
 
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Default bareroot question



One question I do have is: honestly how cold can a rose take, say,
overnight? Can they do down to the 20s or lower if it warms up in the
daytime? I think I took mine in too soon last fall, right after the
second or third frost, and they had a hard time going dormant.


Kim I'll answer your question seperately.

First a roses cold tolerance depends
on the variety. Some old roses such
as Alba's or Gallica's can take upto
-30F before they give up.
JP's tend to be Hybrid Teas.

These tend to have fatal difficulties
w/ Zero degree tempretures. Very tender.

No rose that I know can tolerate a Zone 1
unprotected. The rose w/ the greatest cold
tolerance is the species rose Rosa Acicularis
which grows at the poles and
even it is Zone 2 rated.

On the other hand your micro-climate might
be milder. If so Suzzane is a rose much recommended
for extremely cold area's. Also the Rugosa roses
are known to tolerate -35F tempretures without
protection.

Second When night time tempretures
dip to 20 F most roses tend to shut down
most of their processes. It takes them atleast
a week of warm weather to recover. Some
Hybrid Teas will loose substantial parts of
their branches as they are not cold acclimatized.
So if such cold threatens you might move your
roses into the garage.

Thirdly keeping roses dormant inside heated/unheated
garages or basements is a common problem.
It is not a function of how long you kept it in frost,
as it is the garage tempreture. You indicated in another
post that you garage gets up to 50F. This is way
too warm for a dormant rose. the tempreture needs to be
@ about 25-30F to keep the rose dormant.

If you can turn down the heat to the garage
get one of those cushioned play mats from toys'r us
and place the roses one that. This will ensure the
pots don't freeze from contact w/ the ground.

Alternately you could withhold water and keep
the soil just moist. This too helps keep a rose
in dormancy. DO NOT let it go dry.

--
Theo in Zone 5
Kansas City


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Old 20-05-2003, 01:56 AM
saki
 
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Default bareroot question

chelatna wrote in
:

Following up on this, how often do you think the potted plants should
be repotted or potted up? I've got them in the big resin pots from
Sam's Club (14 and 18 inches I think) but at some point I will need
something bigger like a half barrel. What are the signs a rose needs a
bigger pot?


Signs I've noticed include yellowing lower leaves (not related to insects
or fungus/bacterial attacks)---and I mean a lot of yellow leaves, not
just a few here or there. Sometimes the rose leaf stays green but loses
its luster or sheen. Sometimes bloom will cease or become intermittent.

When one of my roses starts to look fussy in this way, I usually check
the roots by gently slipping the plant out of the pot to see whether the
roots are confined or growing in circles. I do this frequently with my
cuttings; admittedly it's easier with one-gallon size roses than with
five gallon, but even five gallon plants can be inspected by sliding the
plant sideways out of the pot to see how vigorous the root system might
be (try not to break the root ball, though, and pop it back into the pot
if all looks well).

I'm a great believer in knowing what's going on with roots as much as one
can because the health of container roses can depend on it. This is the
area where roses continue to surprise me; mine are always outgrowing
their pots when I'm least prepared for it. When I don't have anything
bigger to put them in, I apply bonsai techniques and prune back a small
portion of the roots, adding fresh soil to the bottom of the pot and
pruning minimally on top to balance root loss, and water once replanted.

This seems to rejuvenate the plant for more midseason growth. I'm not
sure I'd recommend this in regional zones where growing season is short;
you might want to experiment to see whether it works for you. In zone 10B
where I am some of my roses put out non-stop growth all season and
require potting upward several times a year. It's like trying to
anticipate the shoe size of a twelve-year-old boy from one month to
another....

----

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Old 20-05-2003, 11:32 PM
chelatna
 
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Default bareroot question

Theo Asir wrote:

No rose that I know can tolerate a Zone 1
unprotected. The rose w/ the greatest cold
tolerance is the species rose Rosa Acicularis
which grows at the poles and
even it is Zone 2 rated.


Also the Rugosa roses
are known to tolerate -35F tempretures without
protection.


Yes, Rugosas do well here, often unprotected, and we have a thriving
population of "wild" roses--not sure exactly what they are, but they're
everywhere.

Thirdly keeping roses dormant inside heated/unheated
garages or basements is a common problem.
It is not a function of how long you kept it in frost,
as it is the garage tempreture. You indicated in another
post that you garage gets up to 50F. This is way
too warm for a dormant rose. the tempreture needs to be
@ about 25-30F to keep the rose dormant.


Thanks, I wasn't sure if they could stay under freezing like that and
survive.

If you can turn down the heat to the garage
get one of those cushioned play mats from toys'r us
and place the roses one that. This will ensure the
pots don't freeze from contact w/ the ground.


What a great idea! I wonder if that blue insulation foam would work as
well. The hard part about the garage is that the furnace is there and
even when the space heater part is off, it can be pretty warm just from
the furnace. Maybe I'll try building an insulated rose box in the
coldest corner of the garage this fall--try to protect from both extremes.

Alternately you could withhold water and keep
the soil just moist. This too helps keep a rose
in dormancy. DO NOT let it go dry.


Would you suggest covering it with something nonpermeable like a plastic
bag (assuming I could get it around the thorns without poking it full of
holes!). Or would this encourage mildew or parasites too much?

Thank you for such helpful answers and suggestions! My grandfather was
an expert rose man, and I'm sad that I've come to roses too late for him
to have helped me out.
Kim

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Old 20-05-2003, 11:44 PM
chelatna
 
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Default bareroot question

saki wrote:

I'm a great believer in knowing what's going on with roots as much as one
can because the health of container roses can depend on it. This is the
area where roses continue to surprise me; mine are always outgrowing
their pots when I'm least prepared for it. When I don't have anything
bigger to put them in, I apply bonsai techniques and prune back a small
portion of the roots, adding fresh soil to the bottom of the pot and
pruning minimally on top to balance root loss, and water once replanted.


Hmmm. I hadn't really considered using bonsai techniques but it makes a
lot of sense. Would you recommend sealing the cut ends of the large
roots like I do the canes?

Thanks for the other suggestions and things to look for. This is all
really helpful. I'll post some pictures later when I have good plants
and flowers.
Kim

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Old 20-05-2003, 11:56 PM
saki
 
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Default bareroot question

chelatna wrote in
:

saki wrote:

I'm a great believer in knowing what's going on with roots as much as
one can because the health of container roses can depend on it. This
is the area where roses continue to surprise me; mine are always
outgrowing their pots when I'm least prepared for it. When I don't
have anything bigger to put them in, I apply bonsai techniques and
prune back a small portion of the roots, adding fresh soil to the
bottom of the pot and pruning minimally on top to balance root loss,
and water once replanted.


Hmmm. I hadn't really considered using bonsai techniques but it makes
a lot of sense. Would you recommend sealing the cut ends of the large
roots like I do the canes?


Not necessary. For the most part you'd be trimming small fibrous roots,
and these don't need special protection. I've cut back larger roots as
well without the plant fussing at all.

Naturally you'd only do this if the plant is already showing signs of
being rootbound (I'd avoid trying this technique on a plant loaded with
buds) and only if you can also lightly trim foliage as well to balance
(more or less) the root mass you'd be removing.

Of course don't tell Mr. Hennessey!

http://www.rdrop.com/~paul/main.html

(An excellent article by Jim Delahanty on one of the more eccentric
rosarians in history. Mr. Hennessey did not like folks to prune roots, or
much else, apparently....)

Thanks for the other suggestions and things to look for. This is all
really helpful. I'll post some pictures later when I have good plants
and flowers.


Please do. I'd like to see them.

----

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