In article , lms
wrote:

In article ,
says...

Trier sounds like my kinda rose. I read somewhere that a lot of
the Trier sold in USA are Moonlight. What do I know. I grow
Moonlight, and it taint nearly as big as you Trier. Wide and
layered, not big and tall.

Wow, what a scam, what a travesty, I grew Moonlight for several
years actually. A few years back I moved a bunch of roses and
dropped the level of this one area down to its original level. I
left Moonlight to its fate which it finally met last year. The
stickiness and the flowers, to some degree, are similar, I guess
they'd have to be. heheh. Seriously I used to pamper that
thing--and it's unforgiving and a mean sob-- but it just never
wanted to grow, never appreciated all those times I pulled the
tall grass outa the beeeeitch. And watered it special. Moonlight,
a rose named Moonlight should be a no-brainer, should kill
everything under it, not have to worry about gd grass. I think I
was taken in by the line in the catalog that went something like
'lights up the night garden like searchlights'.

Yeah, some northern roser used to wax poetic about Moonlight in the
night garden. Smells good. How the hell did he keep it alive, you
wonder. HM's aren't terribly hardy, Regina tells me.

I either got the HM attribution wrong or the Regina attribution wrong.
She tells me she isn't responsible for this nugget, so either she and I
were talking about something else or it was someone else. How's that
for great authority for a proposition? Somewhere that stuck in the data
banks, but I'll be damned if I know where I heard it.

every aspect of Moonlight was a surprise and disappointment.

Not a great rose, but it has the most horizontal, layered, make like an
Egyptian look of any rose I grow. Would look good in Martha Stewarts
garden. eg

I will
faithfully cultivate any rose I plant, meaning I will keep the tall
grass generally out of its face while it's getting extablished, but
at some point I expect the rose to help me out some. This one was
simply content with bloodying my knuckles and the reward was way
below the bottom line of what was necessary. So I left it to its own
designs, which were totally predictable. I think names like
Moonlight should be reserved for roses which grow everywhere there's
moonlight. After this experience, right or wrong, I have left all
Hybrid Musks on the catalog pages. It's one of the more ambiguous
rose classifications in the first place-- the parentage of Moonlight
is Trier x Sulphurea. Trier is a Hybrid Multiflora and Sulphurea is
a Tea. So where's the Musk? Tea Roses aren't particularly known for
their hardiness? hahahaha

I thought the bunch were derived from Trier. Lambertinianas. Next time
we turn around the ARS is going to reclassify them as small flowered
shrubs. I like them, every one. Even Buff Beauty was good this year,
14 inches tall and 7 feet around pos. For me, HM's smell the best on
the air of all roses. From 12 feet, 15 feet if it's hot.

good god. I heard a grown cottonwood does 2500 gallons a day.

Ya think? They're always the first to go when the water table drops,
but I never knew for sure whether it was that or simply that they're
not long lived. Everywhere the Mormons settled in the desert west, the
planted cottonwood along the river and stream beds. Many many are dead
and dying.

the year we moved here I thought 'what a pretty little weed' and
better that than nothing. That lasted not very long.


And my family is worried about ants.

have you heard about the peanut butter remedy? I haven't tried it,
have been meaning to.

No, and how do you keep the dog from eating it, whatever it is?

In article ,
says...


Well, I cheated. It's a climbing Fairy, of course. I had a rosarian
over to the house last week taking that possible white sport that I
recently posted about and she said she didn't even know that there was
a climbing sport of Fairy. And she said she asked several people at a
recent Birmingham (maybe) show and none of *them* had ever heard of
one either. So, I guess this plant isn't as widely known as I assumed
that it was.

I've heard of it. One of our kitties died a few years back and I buried her,
and I think later that same day--it was winter--I was at the hardware store
and saw this totally bedraggled The Fairy overwintering in a pot outside,
you know the kind, so I planted that thing as a memorial right where the
digging had become easy? So it came spring and The Fairy forgot all about its
little pot prison.

I've been watching this one cane of a rose I grow for quite some time--
the rose is Vigilance, it's a white sport of Jeanne LaJoie, a much-heralded
climbing pink mini. It grows very much differently from J LaJ, at least
here, it's a mounder instead of a climber.
http://www.aoc.nrao.edu/~mstephen/clvig8x6.jpg
You can see the cane I'm talking about, it's real obvious. I just don't know
what to make of it and I'm lazy too, basically. If it is, it is, and cool.


Well, you yourself talked about big/catalog appeal being important in
the scheme of things. Frankly, there's big (when it comes to blooms -
probably important in a lot of peoples minds) and big when it comes to
plant structure (hardly important in an HT - when was the last time
you saw a picture of a 10 ft + HT with little foliage and no blooms in
a catalog).

their biz is, of course cash, and mine's strictly entertainment. granted,
few people would call it idyllic, but then, few people would also tell me
how ugly it is, even if it is, right? when you said that, I thought somebody
had hit the rewind button. and yadda yadda yadda.

an interesting little development today. My longest longtime bud, the best
man at both my weddings, Mr. Wargames, has ended up in Seattle, where he is
from, and the house he bought has about 30 rose bushes. A few weeks back he
told me how jazzed he was at this. (He's been here many times, knows about
the jungle) Well today guess what, he sent me a pic of Mr. Lincoln. I'll
withhold my comments on his pic cause he might someday get wind of rgr
but in any case, suffice it to say he was pumped about it.
Also sent me a pic of this 'white' rose, which he has already evidently dug
up and relegated to the back yard--didn't know what it was but I'm pretty sure
it was Margaret Merrill. Now *those were very pretty. Reminded me of this
thread, almost to a T.
So I gave him the link for the Mr. Lincoln and without so much as saying a
word about it, I told him to write me back and tell me what his reaction was to
this pic. I'll let you know. hahahahaha
I looked at it again btw. From about 5 feet up it's got plenty of those
earliest of early red red leaves. So basically, I'd say that was just about
the right amount of nakedness and in perfect proportion to the rest of the
plant. heheh



For me, big would be important in a bush-type rose, but of little
significance in an HT. I have a plant that combines the both of both
worlds though, and that's Aloha. It definitely doesn't have an HT
appearance in the bush form that it takes in my yard.

Aloha's an unusual bird--most non-sport climbers are called Large Flowered
Climbers, but that one's classified a Climbing HT. Never grown it.


Frankly, I don't really care all that much for HTs in general, other
than the fact that I have a few varieties that make good arrangements
in vases and are eye-catchers when in bloom. Otherwise, I think that
most of the time, they're pretty ugly plants. I much prefer things
that have more visual interest in addition to the blooms, i.e.
structure and foliage.

yo tambien. and visual interest, well I still most definitely think Mr.
Lincoln as I know it, qualifies. Very few things about the plantation here
are orthodox.



I thought that dissing a whole class of "follow-on" Peaces was pretty
ascerbic. Ballistic? Almost. The followup to my post certainly was
borderline ballistic.

ok, sorry. Dave, I've been through the Peace thing a few times. Would you
care to speculate on the Commemorative Rose for the war just 'ended'?
What the hell are we going to call a rose named after an indefinite period?
I just think of these J$P guys rubbing their hands together every time they
bring out the F-117s.
I'm not so enthralled with Peace that I don't see wasted dastardly examples but
I see that with just about all roses.
Old Garden Roses, for the most part, and for some reason, do not have this
propensity to sway so far either way from the average blossom.



I think it's weird that you freak out over the name of a plant that
has just as good of structure *and* more vivid colors than your two
favorite Peace plants. You rave over the variation in colors in Peace
and yet it can't hold a candle to the variations and depth of color
that Desert Peace offers. And Chicago Peace only comes close, from the
fictures I've seen.

fictures, I like it. And I don't disbelieve you.

I liked it too when I saw it.

usage doth a word make, it's getting used.



Maybe you need to embrace your feminine side.

I embrace my feminine side plenty enough, I'm growing five clitoria this
season.

You might try interacting with them.

They're not big enough yet.

That's why you have to interact with them. They get bigger that way.

Looked at them yesterday. They're growing.



I don't know how you make this leap. But, for the record, I now get
that you were talking tongue in cheek. I *really* didn't know that,
since most of the bushes that you've posted here don't resemble that
in the least. And since you seem opposed to regular shape in roses, I
thought that you might have thought of that as a pruned big yew with
blooms.

I have a yew tree, same size as Sunsprite, they're basically twins, nope, no
confusion.

Can't tell if you take my point.

I don't know which kinda yew tree you're talking about. I have the one that
looks like a succulent from the ground up to about 7 feet now, the thought
of a pruned one of these is like totally foreign to my brain.
but no, absolutely not, that's what roses are supposed to do--right now there
are 2 hundred foot double-rowed walls and 1 50 foot wall of roses, solid gd
roses, and growing together most dangerously. If I don't do something soon,
there's going to be this 100 fffoot wall with one weird side that's 40 or 50
feet wide. A battle to the death, take no quarter, that's what it seems
they're doing.
I don't have many roses that are lucky enough to stand alone, full-sun like
that. Cl. Cecile Brunner's one. Huge mound, solid blooms. I guess I
could count the Raz Ice, Nevada, Foetida Bicolor, Dortmund, and Carefree
Wonder mound as kinda like that. In any case that one's where I've always
lived, here. One of these units, Nevada, was once an ARS Rose of the Month.
Never mind that someone was in a bind and needed something quick, but just the
same...
That person's actually been to the house. stayed in Socorro overnight.
Hasn't been here lately though. A tree freak might like the evolution since
then but I have mixed feelings about things which affect about half the gd
roses. Even though I'm a tree freak. Hell I have a sugar maple on the north
side of the house, shoots straight up bout 30 feet now. Had 2 Crimson King
Maples at different times, you simply wouldn't believe what the sun did to
those leaves. Stunning, that spring red, but man, pure torture after that.
Have all the common fruit trees. My fave tree is the Dawn Redwood, it's on its
way.



what would johnny cochran say?

Who's "Johnny" Cochran?

hahaha. oman. he was oj's lawyer. oj simpson. heheh.



Sorry. Didn't mean to offend by using the word "dealing".

Heck, I'm just a novice when it comes to roses. My garden's only in
its 3rd year. Coincidentally, that's when I bought my house. If it
weren't for the big 40 year old Aloha bush in the front yard, I might
not be have become enamored with roses.

I have a 40 year old rose, actually 42, Girl Scout. It was born and bred
a runt and it's a runt today. Besides the one that came from this one and is
now growing in the world's greatest Rose Garden, it's the only known specimen
in the world, although I'm positive it's still growing somewhere, and probably
even lots of places, but the odds of it remaining anonymous are growing greater
daily. If someone out there is still growing this rose, they have never been
on a computer. I get several mails each spring from Girl Scout leaders
and former Girl Scouts looking for this rose. One of em told me they had
a big group of Girl Scout Rosers, and they be doing the network thing looking
for this rose, and to no avail.
It's so surprising, almost unconscienable, that the Girl Scouts of America
allowed this rose to just disappear. My mom was a Girl Scout leader, got this
rose from The Troops. heheh. 1961.
guess that'll do it for this one, man.

m

oh, almost forgot. you gave me a list of busted links, thanks for that.
the problem is, the list of pics (from which pic to which pic) haven't existed
on the page for quite some time.
Someone else recently sent me a mail describing the same problem.
Anyone knows what causes this? I'm going to have to ask around today.






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On 12 Jun 2003 08:28:35 -0500, (lms) wrote:

In article ,
says...


Well, I cheated. It's a climbing Fairy, of course. I had a rosarian
over to the house last week taking that possible white sport that I
recently posted about and she said she didn't even know that there was
a climbing sport of Fairy. And she said she asked several people at a
recent Birmingham (maybe) show and none of *them* had ever heard of
one either. So, I guess this plant isn't as widely known as I assumed
that it was.

I've heard of it. One of our kitties died a few years back and I buried her,
and I think later that same day--it was winter--I was at the hardware store
and saw this totally bedraggled The Fairy overwintering in a pot outside,
you know the kind, so I planted that thing as a memorial right where the
digging had become easy? So it came spring and The Fairy forgot all about its
little pot prison.

I've been watching this one cane of a rose I grow for quite some time--
the rose is Vigilance, it's a white sport of Jeanne LaJoie, a much-heralded
climbing pink mini. It grows very much differently from J LaJ, at least
here, it's a mounder instead of a climber.
http://www.aoc.nrao.edu/~mstephen/clvig8x6.jpg
You can see the cane I'm talking about, it's real obvious. I just don't know
what to make of it and I'm lazy too, basically. If it is, it is, and cool.

That looks cool. That's actually the sort of form of rose that I like
- mounding. Not that I have any at my home yet.

Well, you yourself talked about big/catalog appeal being important in
the scheme of things. Frankly, there's big (when it comes to blooms -
probably important in a lot of peoples minds) and big when it comes to
plant structure (hardly important in an HT - when was the last time
you saw a picture of a 10 ft + HT with little foliage and no blooms in
a catalog).

their biz is, of course cash, and mine's strictly entertainment.

Which was my point in pointing out you using catalogs to support your
viewpoint, when, in actuality, it runs sort of counter to what you
seem to find cool in roses.

granted,
few people would call it idyllic, but then, few people would also tell me
how ugly it is, even if it is, right? when you said that, I thought somebody
had hit the rewind button. and yadda yadda yadda.

"Kinda ugly", remember? chuckle

This sort of goes back to your conversation about my Papa Meilland,
which I said was growing too tall to really enjoy. To me, HTs are all
about the bloom, not the plant itself. And when the blooms get too
high to gaze upon, it starts being less appealing to me.

Don't doubt that I find your Mr. Lincoln most impressive. On my
property, it would look stupid - which is why I have to keep a firm
hand on any roses that I grow. My Mr. Lincoln will be trimmed to stay
no more than about 9 feet tall, and this won't hurt the plant at all,
nor will it feel like it's being repressed or marginalized. Right now,
this two month old (in the ground) Mr. Lincoln already has a bud
that's at four feet. It sits by the porch, so its utility will be to
cover the opening of the porch as well as adding some fragrance to the
atmosphere of the porch. I'm hoping that I can keep some shorter bloom
growth going. If it ends up looking like Papa Meilland has been, I
might move it out in the lawn and let it soar to the heavens like
yours has. since everthing I've read about Mr. Lincoln puts it at 4 -
7 feet, I'll feel a bit cheated if it ends up being an overachiever
like yours, since i bought it for a specific place and for a specific
purpose.

It certainly looks like it's going to be a pretty damn vigorous plant.

an interesting little development today. My longest longtime bud, the best
man at both my weddings, Mr. Wargames, has ended up in Seattle, where he is
from, and the house he bought has about 30 rose bushes. A few weeks back he
told me how jazzed he was at this. (He's been here many times, knows about
the jungle) Well today guess what, he sent me a pic of Mr. Lincoln. I'll
withhold my comments on his pic cause he might someday get wind of rgr
but in any case, suffice it to say he was pumped about it.
Also sent me a pic of this 'white' rose, which he has already evidently dug
up and relegated to the back yard--didn't know what it was but I'm pretty sure
it was Margaret Merrill. Now *those were very pretty. Reminded me of this
thread, almost to a T.
So I gave him the link for the Mr. Lincoln and without so much as saying a
word about it, I told him to write me back and tell me what his reaction was to
this pic. I'll let you know. hahahahaha
I looked at it again btw. From about 5 feet up it's got plenty of those
earliest of early red red leaves. So basically, I'd say that was just about
the right amount of nakedness and in perfect proportion to the rest of the
plant. heheh

You should take a pic of it when it's actually in full bloom. Maybe
I'd chance my mind about it. On a property like yours, maybe being
able to step back 20 feet to take in the whole view would chnce my
mind about structure vs. bloom.

With my Papa (and that ID is now in question because the rosarian lady
said that she didn't think it had enough scent for PM), it's hard to
get a view from my flat property that allows the blooms to shine. It
looks like a torch with a tiny flame on top.:

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/PMaybe.jpg

Fortunately, taking the blooms with their 2 1/2 foot long stems, has
automatically shorted the plant considerably. Now, if I could just get
rid of the black spot that has just this year hit it, I'd be happy.

For me, big would be important in a bush-type rose, but of little
significance in an HT. I have a plant that combines the both of both
worlds though, and that's Aloha. It definitely doesn't have an HT
appearance in the bush form that it takes in my yard.

Aloha's an unusual bird--most non-sport climbers are called Large Flowered
Climbers, but that one's classified a Climbing HT. Never grown it.

And I've never seen a pic of it grown as a climber. All of the pics
I've seen of it have been as a bush. It certainly does look good as a
huge bush, although it's a Japanese Beetle magnet. And mine has had a
problem with blackspot the last couple of years.

Mine is sort of like your Mr. Lincoln - it's pretty awe inspiring when
it looks good, i.e. first flush. It's a traffic stopper.

Frankly, I don't really care all that much for HTs in general, other
than the fact that I have a few varieties that make good arrangements
in vases and are eye-catchers when in bloom. Otherwise, I think that
most of the time, they're pretty ugly plants. I much prefer things
that have more visual interest in addition to the blooms, i.e.
structure and foliage.

yo tambien. and visual interest, well I still most definitely think Mr.
Lincoln as I know it, qualifies. Very few things about the plantation here
are orthodox.

And, since that's to your liking, it's a good thing.

I thought that dissing a whole class of "follow-on" Peaces was pretty
ascerbic. Ballistic? Almost. The followup to my post certainly was
borderline ballistic.

ok, sorry. Dave, I've been through the Peace thing a few times. Would you
care to speculate on the Commemorative Rose for the war just 'ended'?

How about World's Policeman?

What the hell are we going to call a rose named after an indefinite period?
I just think of these J$P guys rubbing their hands together every time they
bring out the F-117s.
I'm not so enthralled with Peace that I don't see wasted dastardly examples but
I see that with just about all roses.

Frankly, my impression of the regular Peace is based on the examples
I've seen at the two rose shows that I've attended. They looked like
those powder puff things that women used to use.

Even *my* Desert Peace sometimes makes me gag g.

Old Garden Roses, for the most part, and for some reason, do not have this
propensity to sway so far either way from the average blossom.

I like 'em. Mainly because i find the form of the plant more "natural"
looking (for the most part).

I think it's weird that you freak out over the name of a plant that
has just as good of structure *and* more vivid colors than your two
favorite Peace plants. You rave over the variation in colors in Peace
and yet it can't hold a candle to the variations and depth of color
that Desert Peace offers. And Chicago Peace only comes close, from the
fictures I've seen.

fictures, I like it. And I don't disbelieve you.

I liked it too when I saw it.

usage doth a word make, it's getting used.



Maybe you need to embrace your feminine side.

I embrace my feminine side plenty enough, I'm growing five clitoria this
season.

You might try interacting with them.

They're not big enough yet.

That's why you have to interact with them. They get bigger that way.

Looked at them yesterday. They're growing.

Now that the foreplay is over, time to get to it.

I don't know how you make this leap. But, for the record, I now get
that you were talking tongue in cheek. I *really* didn't know that,
since most of the bushes that you've posted here don't resemble that
in the least. And since you seem opposed to regular shape in roses, I
thought that you might have thought of that as a pruned big yew with
blooms.

I have a yew tree, same size as Sunsprite, they're basically twins, nope, no
confusion.

Can't tell if you take my point.

I don't know which kinda yew tree you're talking about.

I'm talking about those trimmed yews that you see around. There's one
at the local library. It's trimmed to almost a perfect globe. A globe
with a 6 foot diameter. That's what put Cass' picture in mind of a yew
type "French garden"- type highly pruned hedge plant.

My yews are trimmed into a straight hedge shape.

I have the one that
looks like a succulent from the ground up to about 7 feet now, the thought
of a pruned one of these is like totally foreign to my brain.

Well, I'd say that yews are mostly grown with more formal shapes. At
least, that's how you seem to see them around (you being a universal
you). I have to keep my trimmed straight across or my porch would
disappear.

I'd say that growing them like you do is very rare. Of course, then
you have the other extreme - think Edward Scissorhands...

but no, absolutely not, that's what roses are supposed to do--right now there
are 2 hundred foot double-rowed walls and 1 50 foot wall of roses, solid gd
roses, and growing together most dangerously. If I don't do something soon,
there's going to be this 100 fffoot wall with one weird side that's 40 or 50
feet wide. A battle to the death, take no quarter, that's what it seems
they're doing.
I don't have many roses that are lucky enough to stand alone, full-sun like
that. Cl. Cecile Brunner's one. Huge mound, solid blooms.

I'm hoping that mine will end up like that. The dead sugar maple that
it's growing on will eventually collapse in on itself, probably in the
next three years..

I guess I
could count the Raz Ice, Nevada, Foetida Bicolor, Dortmund, and Carefree
Wonder mound as kinda like that. In any case that one's where I've always
lived, here. One of these units, Nevada, was once an ARS Rose of the Month.
Never mind that someone was in a bind and needed something quick, but just the
same...
That person's actually been to the house. stayed in Socorro overnight.
Hasn't been here lately though. A tree freak might like the evolution since
then but I have mixed feelings about things which affect about half the gd
roses. Even though I'm a tree freak. Hell I have a sugar maple on the north
side of the house, shoots straight up bout 30 feet now. Had 2 Crimson King
Maples at different times, you simply wouldn't believe what the sun did to
those leaves. Stunning, that spring red, but man, pure torture after that.
Have all the common fruit trees. My fave tree is the Dawn Redwood, it's on its
way.

I was really disappointed the first spring in myhouse when the sugar
maple in the front yard didn't do anything but stand there deader than
Wild Bill Hickock. At least I can't shoulder the blame. That's when
the decision had to be made - take it down? It was small enough that I
could have easily done it myself. Nope - plant Cecile Brunner Cl.
there. Natural arbor. Now it almost looks like a bloomin' tree.

what would johnny cochran say?

Who's "Johnny" Cochran?

hahaha. oman. he was oj's lawyer. oj simpson. heheh.

Ohhhh, Johnnie...

chuckle

Sorry. Didn't mean to offend by using the word "dealing".

Heck, I'm just a novice when it comes to roses. My garden's only in
its 3rd year. Coincidentally, that's when I bought my house. If it
weren't for the big 40 year old Aloha bush in the front yard, I might
not be have become enamored with roses.

I have a 40 year old rose, actually 42, Girl Scout. It was born and bred
a runt and it's a runt today. Besides the one that came from this one and is
now growing in the world's greatest Rose Garden, it's the only known specimen
in the world, although I'm positive it's still growing somewhere, and probably
even lots of places, but the odds of it remaining anonymous are growing greater
daily. If someone out there is still growing this rose, they have never been
on a computer. I get several mails each spring from Girl Scout leaders
and former Girl Scouts looking for this rose. One of em told me they had
a big group of Girl Scout Rosers, and they be doing the network thing looking
for this rose, and to no avail.
It's so surprising, almost unconscienable, that the Girl Scouts of America
allowed this rose to just disappear. My mom was a Girl Scout leader, got this
rose from The Troops. heheh. 1961.
guess that'll do it for this one, man.

Actually, I don't know how old the Aloha is. The 92 year old lady who
lived across the street since 1918 and who passed away about a year
ago, claimed that that bush had been there since she was a small girl.
Great, except that Aloha wasn't "invented" until 1949. However,
everyone in the neighborhood says the same thing - "I can't remember
that bush *not* being there". so, I'll just be conservative and say 40
years...

Shame about Girl Scout. Is it a nice looking rose? Is it worth saving
as the namesake of the Girl Scouts (it's one of your busted links,
unfortunately).

It's certainly worth saving on its own merits, but maybe you could get
the Girl Scouts involved in getting someone like J&P, Weeks or Moore
to produce the plant.

PS, the rosarian took some of my Aloha pollen to experiment with some
hybridization (don't know what she's planning). She already
successfully raised 4 plants from cuttings, which she sold at the
local show. Fortunately, my boss bought one of them, so I'll be able
to track its growth (and he's going to grow it as a climbing plant
against his new house, so hat will be fun). He was a bit annoyed last
year when the only blooms that he got all balled. This year, he's more
pleased. He *won't* be pleased to be picking off the beetles though.

m

oh, almost forgot. you gave me a list of busted links, thanks for that.

No prob. Figured you want to address that.

the problem is, the list of pics (from which pic to which pic) haven't existed
on the page for quite some time.
Someone else recently sent me a mail describing the same problem.
Anyone knows what causes this? I'm going to have to ask around today.

Finally, as a totally irrelevant aside, there's a new KIA Sorento
commercial (talk about the name of a car that *seems* to mean
something, but is actually just the name of a town in IL) that has
some background music that, when I'm on the computer in the other
room, makes it sound like my phone is ringing in the background.

In article , dave weil
wrote:

On 12 Jun 2003 08:28:35 -0500, (lms) wrote:

In article ,
says...


Well, I cheated. It's a climbing Fairy, of course. I had a rosarian
over to the house last week taking that possible white sport that I
recently posted about and she said she didn't even know that there was
a climbing sport of Fairy. And she said she asked several people at a
recent Birmingham (maybe) show and none of *them* had ever heard of
one either. So, I guess this plant isn't as widely known as I assumed
that it was.

I've heard of it. One of our kitties died a few years back and I buried her,
and I think later that same day--it was winter--I was at the hardware store
and saw this totally bedraggled The Fairy overwintering in a pot outside,
you know the kind, so I planted that thing as a memorial right where the
digging had become easy? So it came spring and The Fairy forgot all about
its
little pot prison.

I've been watching this one cane of a rose I grow for quite some time--
the rose is Vigilance, it's a white sport of Jeanne LaJoie, a much-heralded
climbing pink mini. It grows very much differently from J LaJ, at least
here, it's a mounder instead of a climber.
http://www.aoc.nrao.edu/~mstephen/clvig8x6.jpg
You can see the cane I'm talking about, it's real obvious. I just don't know
what to make of it and I'm lazy too, basically. If it is, it is, and cool.

That looks cool. That's actually the sort of form of rose that I like
- mounding. Not that I have any at my home yet.

Well, you yourself talked about big/catalog appeal being important in
the scheme of things. Frankly, there's big (when it comes to blooms -
probably important in a lot of peoples minds) and big when it comes to
plant structure (hardly important in an HT - when was the last time
you saw a picture of a 10 ft + HT with little foliage and no blooms in
a catalog).

their biz is, of course cash, and mine's strictly entertainment.

Which was my point in pointing out you using catalogs to support your
viewpoint, when, in actuality, it runs sort of counter to what you
seem to find cool in roses.

granted,
few people would call it idyllic, but then, few people would also tell me
how ugly it is, even if it is, right? when you said that, I thought somebody
had hit the rewind button. and yadda yadda yadda.

"Kinda ugly", remember? chuckle

This sort of goes back to your conversation about my Papa Meilland,
which I said was growing too tall to really enjoy. To me, HTs are all
about the bloom, not the plant itself. And when the blooms get too
high to gaze upon, it starts being less appealing to me.

Don't doubt that I find your Mr. Lincoln most impressive. On my
property, it would look stupid - which is why I have to keep a firm
hand on any roses that I grow. My Mr. Lincoln will be trimmed to stay
no more than about 9 feet tall, and this won't hurt the plant at all,
nor will it feel like it's being repressed or marginalized. Right now,
this two month old (in the ground) Mr. Lincoln already has a bud
that's at four feet. It sits by the porch, so its utility will be to
cover the opening of the porch as well as adding some fragrance to the
atmosphere of the porch. I'm hoping that I can keep some shorter bloom
growth going. If it ends up looking like Papa Meilland has been, I
might move it out in the lawn and let it soar to the heavens like
yours has. since everthing I've read about Mr. Lincoln puts it at 4 -
7 feet, I'll feel a bit cheated if it ends up being an overachiever
like yours, since i bought it for a specific place and for a specific
purpose.

It certainly looks like it's going to be a pretty damn vigorous plant.

an interesting little development today. My longest longtime bud, the best
man at both my weddings, Mr. Wargames, has ended up in Seattle, where he is
from, and the house he bought has about 30 rose bushes. A few weeks back he
told me how jazzed he was at this. (He's been here many times, knows about
the jungle) Well today guess what, he sent me a pic of Mr. Lincoln. I'll
withhold my comments on his pic cause he might someday get wind of rgr
but in any case, suffice it to say he was pumped about it.
Also sent me a pic of this 'white' rose, which he has already evidently dug
up and relegated to the back yard--didn't know what it was but I'm pretty
sure
it was Margaret Merrill. Now *those were very pretty. Reminded me of this
thread, almost to a T.
So I gave him the link for the Mr. Lincoln and without so much as saying a
word about it, I told him to write me back and tell me what his reaction was
to
this pic. I'll let you know. hahahahaha
I looked at it again btw. From about 5 feet up it's got plenty of those
earliest of early red red leaves. So basically, I'd say that was just about
the right amount of nakedness and in perfect proportion to the rest of the
plant. heheh

You should take a pic of it when it's actually in full bloom. Maybe
I'd chance my mind about it. On a property like yours, maybe being
able to step back 20 feet to take in the whole view would chnce my
mind about structure vs. bloom.

With my Papa (and that ID is now in question because the rosarian lady
said that she didn't think it had enough scent for PM), it's hard to
get a view from my flat property that allows the blooms to shine. It
looks like a torch with a tiny flame on top.:

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/PMaybe.jpg

Fortunately, taking the blooms with their 2 1/2 foot long stems, has
automatically shorted the plant considerably. Now, if I could just get
rid of the black spot that has just this year hit it, I'd be happy.

For me, big would be important in a bush-type rose, but of little
significance in an HT. I have a plant that combines the both of both
worlds though, and that's Aloha. It definitely doesn't have an HT
appearance in the bush form that it takes in my yard.

Aloha's an unusual bird--most non-sport climbers are called Large Flowered
Climbers, but that one's classified a Climbing HT. Never grown it.

And I've never seen a pic of it grown as a climber. All of the pics
I've seen of it have been as a bush. It certainly does look good as a
huge bush, although it's a Japanese Beetle magnet. And mine has had a
problem with blackspot the last couple of years.

Mine is sort of like your Mr. Lincoln - it's pretty awe inspiring when
it looks good, i.e. first flush. It's a traffic stopper.

Frankly, I don't really care all that much for HTs in general, other
than the fact that I have a few varieties that make good arrangements
in vases and are eye-catchers when in bloom. Otherwise, I think that
most of the time, they're pretty ugly plants. I much prefer things
that have more visual interest in addition to the blooms, i.e.
structure and foliage.

yo tambien. and visual interest, well I still most definitely think Mr.
Lincoln as I know it, qualifies. Very few things about the plantation here
are orthodox.

And, since that's to your liking, it's a good thing.

I thought that dissing a whole class of "follow-on" Peaces was pretty
ascerbic. Ballistic? Almost. The followup to my post certainly was
borderline ballistic.

ok, sorry. Dave, I've been through the Peace thing a few times. Would you
care to speculate on the Commemorative Rose for the war just 'ended'?

How about World's Policeman?

Jackass works for me. Congress Abdicated. Fabricated WMD. Fox's War.
What the hell are we going to call a rose named after an indefinite period?
I just think of these J$P guys rubbing their hands together every time they
bring out the F-117s.
I'm not so enthralled with Peace that I don't see wasted dastardly examples
but
I see that with just about all roses.

Frankly, my impression of the regular Peace is based on the examples
I've seen at the two rose shows that I've attended. They looked like
those powder puff things that women used to use.

Even *my* Desert Peace sometimes makes me gag g.

Old Garden Roses, for the most part, and for some reason, do not have this
propensity to sway so far either way from the average blossom.

I like 'em. Mainly because i find the form of the plant more "natural"
looking (for the most part).

I think it's weird that you freak out over the name of a plant that
has just as good of structure *and* more vivid colors than your two
favorite Peace plants. You rave over the variation in colors in Peace
and yet it can't hold a candle to the variations and depth of color
that Desert Peace offers. And Chicago Peace only comes close, from the
fictures I've seen.

fictures, I like it. And I don't disbelieve you.

I liked it too when I saw it.

usage doth a word make, it's getting used.



Maybe you need to embrace your feminine side.

I embrace my feminine side plenty enough, I'm growing five clitoria this
season.

You might try interacting with them.

They're not big enough yet.

That's why you have to interact with them. They get bigger that way.

Looked at them yesterday. They're growing.

Now that the foreplay is over, time to get to it.

I don't know how you make this leap. But, for the record, I now get
that you were talking tongue in cheek. I *really* didn't know that,
since most of the bushes that you've posted here don't resemble that
in the least. And since you seem opposed to regular shape in roses, I
thought that you might have thought of that as a pruned big yew with
blooms.

I have a yew tree, same size as Sunsprite, they're basically twins, nope,
no
confusion.

Can't tell if you take my point.

I don't know which kinda yew tree you're talking about.

I'm talking about those trimmed yews that you see around. There's one
at the local library. It's trimmed to almost a perfect globe. A globe
with a 6 foot diameter. That's what put Cass' picture in mind of a yew
type "French garden"- type highly pruned hedge plant.

My yews are trimmed into a straight hedge shape.

I have the one that
looks like a succulent from the ground up to about 7 feet now, the thought
of a pruned one of these is like totally foreign to my brain.

Well, I'd say that yews are mostly grown with more formal shapes. At
least, that's how you seem to see them around (you being a universal
you). I have to keep my trimmed straight across or my porch would
disappear.

I'd say that growing them like you do is very rare. Of course, then
you have the other extreme - think Edward Scissorhands...

but no, absolutely not, that's what roses are supposed to do--right now there
are 2 hundred foot double-rowed walls and 1 50 foot wall of roses, solid gd
roses, and growing together most dangerously. If I don't do something soon,
there's going to be this 100 fffoot wall with one weird side that's 40 or
50
feet wide. A battle to the death, take no quarter, that's what it seems
they're doing.
I don't have many roses that are lucky enough to stand alone, full-sun like
that. Cl. Cecile Brunner's one. Huge mound, solid blooms.

I'm hoping that mine will end up like that. The dead sugar maple that
it's growing on will eventually collapse in on itself, probably in the
next three years..

I guess I
could count the Raz Ice, Nevada, Foetida Bicolor, Dortmund, and Carefree
Wonder mound as kinda like that. In any case that one's where I've always
lived, here. One of these units, Nevada, was once an ARS Rose of the Month.
Never mind that someone was in a bind and needed something quick, but just
the
same...
That person's actually been to the house. stayed in Socorro overnight.
Hasn't been here lately though. A tree freak might like the evolution since
then but I have mixed feelings about things which affect about half the gd
roses. Even though I'm a tree freak. Hell I have a sugar maple on the north
side of the house, shoots straight up bout 30 feet now. Had 2 Crimson King
Maples at different times, you simply wouldn't believe what the sun did to
those leaves. Stunning, that spring red, but man, pure torture after that.
Have all the common fruit trees. My fave tree is the Dawn Redwood, it's on
its
way.

I was really disappointed the first spring in myhouse when the sugar
maple in the front yard didn't do anything but stand there deader than
Wild Bill Hickock. At least I can't shoulder the blame. That's when
the decision had to be made - take it down? It was small enough that I
could have easily done it myself. Nope - plant Cecile Brunner Cl.
there. Natural arbor. Now it almost looks like a bloomin' tree.

what would johnny cochran say?

Who's "Johnny" Cochran?

hahaha. oman. he was oj's lawyer. oj simpson. heheh.

Ohhhh, Johnnie...

chuckle

Sorry. Didn't mean to offend by using the word "dealing".

Heck, I'm just a novice when it comes to roses. My garden's only in
its 3rd year. Coincidentally, that's when I bought my house. If it
weren't for the big 40 year old Aloha bush in the front yard, I might
not be have become enamored with roses.

I have a 40 year old rose, actually 42, Girl Scout. It was born and bred
a runt and it's a runt today. Besides the one that came from this one and
is
now growing in the world's greatest Rose Garden, it's the only known specimen
in the world, although I'm positive it's still growing somewhere, and
probably
even lots of places, but the odds of it remaining anonymous are growing
greater
daily. If someone out there is still growing this rose, they have never
been
on a computer. I get several mails each spring from Girl Scout leaders
and former Girl Scouts looking for this rose. One of em told me they had
a big group of Girl Scout Rosers, and they be doing the network thing looking
for this rose, and to no avail.
It's so surprising, almost unconscienable, that the Girl Scouts of America
allowed this rose to just disappear. My mom was a Girl Scout leader, got
this
rose from The Troops. heheh. 1961.
guess that'll do it for this one, man.

Actually, I don't know how old the Aloha is. The 92 year old lady who
lived across the street since 1918 and who passed away about a year
ago, claimed that that bush had been there since she was a small girl.
Great, except that Aloha wasn't "invented" until 1949. However,
everyone in the neighborhood says the same thing - "I can't remember
that bush *not* being there". so, I'll just be conservative and say 40
years...

Shame about Girl Scout. Is it a nice looking rose? Is it worth saving
as the namesake of the Girl Scouts (it's one of your busted links,
unfortunately).

It's certainly worth saving on its own merits, but maybe you could get
the Girl Scouts involved in getting someone like J&P, Weeks or Moore
to produce the plant.

PS, the rosarian took some of my Aloha pollen to experiment with some
hybridization (don't know what she's planning). She already
successfully raised 4 plants from cuttings, which she sold at the
local show. Fortunately, my boss bought one of them, so I'll be able
to track its growth (and he's going to grow it as a climbing plant
against his new house, so hat will be fun). He was a bit annoyed last
year when the only blooms that he got all balled. This year, he's more
pleased. He *won't* be pleased to be picking off the beetles though.

m

oh, almost forgot. you gave me a list of busted links, thanks for that.

No prob. Figured you want to address that.

the problem is, the list of pics (from which pic to which pic) haven't existed
on the page for quite some time.
Someone else recently sent me a mail describing the same problem.
Anyone knows what causes this? I'm going to have to ask around today.

Finally, as a totally irrelevant aside, there's a new KIA Sorento
commercial (talk about the name of a car that *seems* to mean
something, but is actually just the name of a town in IL) that has
some background music that, when I'm on the computer in the other
room, makes it sound like my phone is ringing in the background.

In article , says...

In article , lms
wrote:

Moonlight,
a rose named Moonlight should be a no-brainer, should kill
everything under it, not have to worry about gd grass. I
think Iwas taken in by the line in the catalog that went
something like'lights up the night garden like searchlights'.

Yeah, some northern roser used to wax poetic about Moonlight
in thenight garden. Smells good. How the hell did he keep
it alive, you wonder. HM's aren't terribly hardy, Regina tells me.

I either got the HM attribution wrong or the Regina attribution wrong.
She tells me she isn't responsible for this nugget, so either she and I
were talking about something else or it was someone else. How's that
for great authority for a proposition? Somewhere that stuck in the data
banks, but I'll be damned if I know where I heard it.

every aspect of Moonlight was a surprise and disappointment.

Not a great rose, but it has the most horizontal, layered, make like
an Egyptian look of any rose I grow. Would look good in Martha Stewarts
garden. eg

I think her dreams of being on the cover of the J$P catalog have been
quashed. I still like her perky perky blonde hair-----do, but I think
has about 400 million new wrinkles.


I will
faithfully cultivate any rose I plant, meaning I will keep the tall
grass generally out of its face while it's getting extablished, but
at some point I expect the rose to help me out some. This one was
simply content with bloodying my knuckles and the reward was way
below the bottom line of what was necessary. So I left it to its own
designs, which were totally predictable. I think names like
Moonlight should be reserved for roses which grow everywhere there's
moonlight. After this experience, right or wrong, I have left all
Hybrid Musks on the catalog pages. It's one of the more ambiguous
rose classifications in the first place-- the parentage of Moonlight
is Trier x Sulphurea. Trier is a Hybrid Multiflora and Sulphurea is
a Tea. So where's the Musk? Tea Roses aren't particularly known for
their hardiness? hahahaha

I thought the bunch were derived from Trier. Lambertinianas. Next
time we turn around the ARS is going to reclassify them as small
flowered shrubs. I like them, every one. Even Buff Beauty was good
this year,14 inches tall and 7 feet around pos. For me, HM's smell
the best on the air of all roses. From 12 feet, 15 feet if it's hot.

see, that's what I expected. I detect Trier from great distance.
I'm sure the Hybrid Musk fans like to call them Hybrid Musks, sounds
all rosy, but here are just a few. I guess we can assume 'seedling'
is some kinda Hybrid Musk. hahahaha

Buff Beauty
seedling x William Allen Richardson (N)
Munschen
Eva x Reveil Dijonnaise Cl HT
Eva
Robin Hood x JC Thornton
Robin Hood
(Rob in de bois hahaha) Seedling x Miss Edith Cavell (polyantha)
Aurora
Danae (Trier (HMult) x Gloire de Chedane-Guinoisseau (HP)) x Miriam (HT)

one with an unlikely name, Autumn Delight, sounds real nice 1933,
Bentall, white, red stamens

Bishop Darlington Aviateur Bleirot (N) x Moonlight (HMult, T)
and it just goes on and on. Bentall had a lot of them, he was smart
and didn't list the parents. actually the ars already calls Hybrid
Musks shrubs, kinda like calling a gallica
an OGR.


good god. I heard a grown cottonwood does 2500 gallons a day.

Ya think? They're always the first to go when the water table drops,
but I never knew for sure whether it was that or simply that they're
not long lived.

They're not long lived. 100 years is an extremely old one. The
guy who put the roof on the house is going to charge me $350 to take
down this one that's about 15 years old, it became
the first killer tree. Dumbest thing I ever did letting that
thing grow. They're dangerous as all hell here, don't know about
there. You can sometimes just see water pouring out of them. The
other day when there were tornadoes up north we had a little
micro-burst here, scared the living hell out of me, I was replacing
siding on the house where I've ruint it with water, and was
underneath that thing. I'm not going to water the house anymore.


Everywhere the Mormons settled in the desert west, the
planted cottonwood along the river and stream beds. Many many
are dead and dying.

They're thick along the Rio Grande, we live about a half mile
away, east side. There are few things short of a volcano that
sight of several of those cottonwoods going up all at once in a bosque
compare to the fire, they just explode, huge huge balls. Witnessed
the one that went all the way from Belen to the Del Apache from
bed upstairs, ripped through at night. There's just pasture between
us and it and it was all green, wasn't too much scared. But it
jumps theriver when those trees explode, so it was surely in the
back of my mind. The Gov just declared us all a disaster area,
drought, so all this isabout as primed as it can be.
And this was a good one. The little fish just today kicked the city
of Albuquerque's ass. The silvery minnow. Too bad, I guess they'll
just have to postpone those next 300,000 people that wanna move there.
I think they're going to secede.
No, they'll get those same guys that appointed Bush prez to take down
the poor little fish.

Santa Fe is selling rain collecting buckets. hahahahaha.
for 40 bucks, they cost them 80. We have no such water
problems in Socorro, I have a sand-point well goes down 20 feet
and water.


the year we moved here I thought 'what a pretty little weed' and
better that than nothing. That lasted not very long.


And my family is worried about ants.

have you heard about the peanut butter remedy? I haven't tried it,
have been meaning to.

No, and how do you keep the dog from eating it, whatever it is?

dogs aren't parta the equation. that's what I need, dogs with ant
bites all over their tongues. the ants I'm thinkin about have
a hill on one side of the horse barn, dogs don't go there. I'd
have to stand there and watch it though, I don't know what horses
do with peanut butter but I have a pretty good idea.
I've heard the ants take it down in their little underground
apartments and choke everybody at dinner.

m






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In article , lms
wrote:

In article ,
says...

In article , lms
wrote:

Moonlight,
a rose named Moonlight should be a no-brainer, should kill
everything under it, not have to worry about gd grass. I
think Iwas taken in by the line in the catalog that went
something like'lights up the night garden like searchlights'.

Yeah, some northern roser used to wax poetic about Moonlight
in thenight garden. Smells good. How the hell did he keep
it alive, you wonder. HM's aren't terribly hardy, Regina tells me.

I either got the HM attribution wrong or the Regina attribution wrong.
She tells me she isn't responsible for this nugget, so either she and I
were talking about something else or it was someone else. How's that
for great authority for a proposition? Somewhere that stuck in the data
banks, but I'll be damned if I know where I heard it.

every aspect of Moonlight was a surprise and disappointment.

Not a great rose, but it has the most horizontal, layered, make like
an Egyptian look of any rose I grow. Would look good in Martha Stewarts
garden. eg

I think her dreams of being on the cover of the J$P catalog have been
quashed. I still like her perky perky blonde hair-----do, but I think
has about 400 million new wrinkles.


I will
faithfully cultivate any rose I plant, meaning I will keep the tall
grass generally out of its face while it's getting extablished, but
at some point I expect the rose to help me out some. This one was
simply content with bloodying my knuckles and the reward was way
below the bottom line of what was necessary. So I left it to its own
designs, which were totally predictable. I think names like
Moonlight should be reserved for roses which grow everywhere there's
moonlight. After this experience, right or wrong, I have left all
Hybrid Musks on the catalog pages. It's one of the more ambiguous
rose classifications in the first place-- the parentage of Moonlight
is Trier x Sulphurea. Trier is a Hybrid Multiflora and Sulphurea is
a Tea. So where's the Musk? Tea Roses aren't particularly known for
their hardiness? hahahaha

So, do you say it Tree-air? I do.

I thought the bunch were derived from Trier. Lambertinianas. Next
time we turn around the ARS is going to reclassify them as small
flowered shrubs. I like them, every one. Even Buff Beauty was good
this year,14 inches tall and 7 feet around pos. For me, HM's smell
the best on the air of all roses. From 12 feet, 15 feet if it's hot.

see, that's what I expected. I detect Trier from great distance.
I'm sure the Hybrid Musk fans like to call them Hybrid Musks, sounds
all rosy, but here are just a few. I guess we can assume 'seedling'
is some kinda Hybrid Musk. hahahaha

Buff Beauty
seedling x William Allen Richardson (N)
Munschen
Eva x Reveil Dijonnaise Cl HT
Eva
Robin Hood x JC Thornton
Robin Hood
(Rob in de bois hahaha) Seedling x Miss Edith Cavell (polyantha)
Aurora
Danae (Trier (HMult) x Gloire de Chedane-Guinoisseau (HP)) x Miriam (HT)

one with an unlikely name, Autumn Delight, sounds real nice 1933,
Bentall, white, red stamens

Bishop Darlington Aviateur Bleirot (N) x Moonlight (HMult, T)
and it just goes on and on. Bentall had a lot of them, he was smart
and didn't list the parents. actually the ars already calls Hybrid
Musks shrubs, kinda like calling a gallica
an OGR.

I knew his attributions were suspect and I know that HM's aren't HM's.
But with a lot of teas in there, you wouldn't think they'd be all that
hardy. I saw Reveil Dijonnais(se?) a while back, and it was just as
pretty as the pictures, btw.


And my family is worried about ants.

have you heard about the peanut butter remedy? I haven't tried it,
have been meaning to.

No, and how do you keep the dog from eating it, whatever it is?

dogs aren't parta the equation. that's what I need, dogs with ant
bites all over their tongues. the ants I'm thinkin about have
a hill on one side of the horse barn, dogs don't go there. I'd
have to stand there and watch it though, I don't know what horses
do with peanut butter but I have a pretty good idea.
I've heard the ants take it down in their little underground
apartments and choke everybody at dinner.

Yeah, right. Until the smart one figures out how to get the carton of
milk out of the frig. Then we're hosed.