Dave,

Thanks for your reply. I'll respond to the specifics below.

dave weil wrote in message . ..
On 8 Mar 2004 03:45:51 -0800, (Dan Gannon) wrote:

(Dan Gannon) wrote in message . com...
everyone is welcome:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fragrant_mini_roses

Is there no interest among English-speaking people, in fragrant
miniature roses?

Probably only a little. Miniature roses has only a fairly limited
interest compared to, say hybrid teas or old garden roses. And now,
you've limited it even more to a tiny fraction of *those* roses.
Frankly, how much can you say about them?

OK, I can accept that. I am surprised how low the interest seems to
be, at least in this forum. I started another Yahoo group a while
back, and within 2 days, there were more than 100 members. With this
new group, which I *feel* is at least equally interesting and
promising, there are only 2 members so far, after 2 days. (And that's
including myself.) With the first (negative) response I received
here, and the glass of wine I had last night, those were essentially
the stimulii for my posting as irritably as I did. I apologize.

I'm not going to keep the Fragrant Miniature
Roses group open forever with no participation. This is quite
depressing.

Ummmmm, I'd say a couple of things. First of all, give it a little
time. You might get a few takers. Second, considering the narrow
parameters of the group, I wouldn't hold my breath. And third, I
wouldn't take it as a personal affront.

You're right, of course. I agree that the parameters are narrow,
*but* I think it's a compelling subject, for the following reasons:

I think fragrant miniatures have great potential, for use in planters
and pots, both indoors and outdoors. How else can one easily keep a
rose - which *smells* like a rose should - as a houseplant, or keep
quite a few of them on a porch or patio? Urban rose lovers everywhere
should rejoice - especially those who live in apartments or condos.
At least, that's what I think. I guess they haven't come around to my
way of thinking, yet. Perhaps I need to show them, convince them.

I know many have said it's difficult to impossible to keep them
indoors, but so far, I've had nothing but success with it.
Admittedly, I've had the benefit of experience, growing other
difficult plants indoors. But I think, with adequate instruction,
practically anyone could do it. And potted miniatures can easily be
moved - from indoors to out, to a table as a temporary or
semi-permanent centerpiece, etc. The micro-minis can even be grown
under small, inexpensive desk lamps fitted with compact fluorescent
bulbs. With fragrant micros, one needn't travel far to "smell the
roses." For a mini, a larger desk lamp would be suitable, though I'm
still conducting experiments.

At least I know speakers of many other languages are keenly
interested in this topic.

How do you know this?

By speaking with people in those cultures. The interest in fragrant
minis is particularly high in some urban areas. They merely don't
have ready access to the finer fragrant varieties. Further
development of fragrant varieties should considerably brighten the
prospects.

Need the English-speaking world lose out?

Now you're just being a drama queen. Sorry. I doubt that the
English-speaking world is going to collapse because they don't support
an extremely narrow interest group on Yahoo.

I apologize for being so dramatic. What I meant was, the
English-speaking world could well lose out, at least for a time, on
the applications I described above. People aren't mind-readers, so my
statement must have seemed obtuse. At any rate, it was admittedly
dramatic.

You decide. Right now, I'm feeling like I'm only going to
contribute in other languages. (Cantonese, Spanish, Thai, etc.)

Phooey!

Dan

Dan, Dan, Dan, this is no way to introduce yourself to this group.
First of all, it makes you look petty and small.

I had introduced myself here previously, in the form of 2 messages.
Not an extensive introduction, I admit. But I felt it was adequate to
illicit at least one positive response. After all, I was providing a
forum, not setting myself up as the sole authority on the subject. As
a newbie, I recognize I'm not much of an authority.

I was feeling disappointed and, yes, a bit angry. I suppose I was
considering my access to other cultures as a way to divert my efforts
to more attentive audiences. Why stay where there's no interest, when
others in the world are more interested? I can see very little reason
for it. I didn't expect to be greeted with such disinterest. Need I
evangelize? It seems to verge on the ridiculous. If people aren't
convinced of the value of the fragrant minis, after reading this and
my earlier messagess, I don't think they'll become convinced easily.
It's their choice, so let them go without, I say. In other words,
"Phooey!" I also had in mind the old adage, that people often don't
know what they have until it's gone. I was just expressing my
feelings, in an uninhibited manner. I am sorry if I offended anyone.

Second of all,
contrast the worldwide interest in roses to the interest in *your*
subject. And then look at participation in *this* group. It's not
exactly a flood of posts, you know. And so far, we haven't seen all
that much from you that would entice us to join such a group.
Hectoring isn't going to help. Miniature roses is but a portion of the
rose universe. They are interesting, but so are moss roses. Those who
love moss roses don't freak out when people don't discuss them all
that much.

Point well taken. With the huge number of rose gardeners in the
world, the amount of discussion here does seem very, very low. I
suppose there must be reasons for it.

Perhaps most people simply buy a rose, plant it, and watch it grow,
probably with minimal attempts to help it thrive, instead of making it
a more involved hobby and discussing it with others. Perhaps it's
influenced by traditional ways of thinking about roses - possibly many
people have the unspoken opinion that, "they're just supposed to sit
there and look pretty, and that's the end of it." Perhaps many of the
more enthusiastic rose gardeners limit themselves to browsing rose
catalogs, not seeking out discourse or expressing themselves in any
way but their rose purchases. Or perhaps many do discuss their hobby,
but not online. That could be partially due to demographics, such as
ages of rose keepers VS ages of those actively using online forums
like these - USENET specifically. I hadn't really considered that.

I'm glad that you have found a intense interest in this oft-too
ignored niche. But that's all it is - a niche. Heck, if it weren't for
Ralph Moore, it would be a mere curiosity.

It's a smaller niche than I had thought. But I think it deserves to
grow in popularity, for reasons already stated. New and future
varieties do play a large part in that.

I'd say that you're off to
a good start in being a specialist and your input and viewpoint will
be of great value, *if* you choose to share it with everyone, not just
the few individuals who share your passion.

Thanks. You're right. I shouldn't be so quick to discount the entire
group of English-speaking rosarians.

I have noticed that The Uncommon Rose up in your neck of the woods is
carrying some new interesting varieties this year. That's a good
thing.

That's true. I've already ordered five varieties from them. I expect
to receive them soon, probably this week. That should keep me happily
busy for some time.

Again, I apologize for being so grumpy and dramatic in my last
message.

Wishing you a good week,

Dan Gannon

On 8 Mar 2004 13:40:58 -0800, (Dan Gannon) wrote:

I think fragrant miniatures have great potential, for use in planters
and pots, both indoors and outdoors.

I wanted to commend you on taking my "berating" in a positive spirit.
You're probably less defensive than *I* would have been.

I didn't really want to respond to your response point by point, but I
*did* want to respond to this point.

Someone else alluded to this, but I think that you really shouldn't
consider roses of any kind as an indoor plant. Sure, one might have
limited success, but roses are really outdoor plants. The biggest
problem isn't light - as you alluded to, lighting can be duplicated.
The problem is that roses don't *generally* like to live in the same
environment that most humans enjoy. They like open air and *generally*
higher daytime temperatures than humans like. They don't particularly
like to have their roots confined and they are easily affected by
spider mites in "placid" air conditions (not to be confused with "air
conditioning"). I suspect that they are genetically programmed to
respond to the normal differences between day and night temperatures
as well.

But (I hear you say now), that's the same as orchids, right? Well,
sorta. However, orchids are different in that they are almost
succulents and can withstand spider mites for a little longer than the
paper thin leaves of miniature roses. Plus, they seem a little more
suited to the kinds of climates that humans find comfortable (in that
you can actually use lights to create little micro-climates - but
again, circulation is key for them as well).

There are certain places where you might be able to easily grow roses
"indoors". I'm thinking of Southern California or Hawaiian rooms that
might involve walled in porches and the like (you know, those
wonderful homes that don't need air conditioning and you can leave
open year round if yu choose). but for the average apartment dweller,
I think it would be a stuggle to keep an indoor miniature rose happy
for very long. Sure, you can have success for weeks or even months at
a time, I suppose, but really, to be successful, the plant needs to
breath fresh outdoor air instead of canned, recirculating air
conditioned air, even if it's humidified. This is just a guess on my
part.

Perhaps, some research could be done to genetically breed strains of
roses that are tolerant of indoor conditions. Since there are roses
that grow in cooler climates, perhaps they could be developed to like
similar temperatures to indoor conditions.

Oh yeah, the conversation around here is very cyclical, just like
gardening is. We are about to get an increased volume of postings as
people get out and putz around with their roses during growing season.
We are now on the cusp of going from virtually no postings to an
explosion of interest in gabbing about the hobby. Still, this is a
fairly mature newsgroup (in terms of age - I know that *I'm* not
particularly mature g). That means that many subjects are old hat
and have been rehashed many times. So, a lot of the conversation in
the coming months will be connected with helping newbies to the hobby
and talking about new varieties. This doesn't mean that we don't like
talking about roses though.

Well, now I think I'll retire to thoughts of pruning, fertilizing and
wish-list making...

On 8 Mar 2004 13:40:58 -0800, (Dan Gannon) wrote:

I think fragrant miniatures have great potential, for use in planters
and pots, both indoors and outdoors.

I wanted to commend you on taking my "berating" in a positive spirit.
You're probably less defensive than *I* would have been.

I didn't really want to respond to your response point by point, but I
*did* want to respond to this point.

Someone else alluded to this, but I think that you really shouldn't
consider roses of any kind as an indoor plant. Sure, one might have
limited success, but roses are really outdoor plants. The biggest
problem isn't light - as you alluded to, lighting can be duplicated.
The problem is that roses don't *generally* like to live in the same
environment that most humans enjoy. They like open air and *generally*
higher daytime temperatures than humans like. They don't particularly
like to have their roots confined and they are easily affected by
spider mites in "placid" air conditions (not to be confused with "air
conditioning"). I suspect that they are genetically programmed to
respond to the normal differences between day and night temperatures
as well.

But (I hear you say now), that's the same as orchids, right? Well,
sorta. However, orchids are different in that they are almost
succulents and can withstand spider mites for a little longer than the
paper thin leaves of miniature roses. Plus, they seem a little more
suited to the kinds of climates that humans find comfortable (in that
you can actually use lights to create little micro-climates - but
again, circulation is key for them as well).

There are certain places where you might be able to easily grow roses
"indoors". I'm thinking of Southern California or Hawaiian rooms that
might involve walled in porches and the like (you know, those
wonderful homes that don't need air conditioning and you can leave
open year round if yu choose). but for the average apartment dweller,
I think it would be a stuggle to keep an indoor miniature rose happy
for very long. Sure, you can have success for weeks or even months at
a time, I suppose, but really, to be successful, the plant needs to
breath fresh outdoor air instead of canned, recirculating air
conditioned air, even if it's humidified. This is just a guess on my
part.

Perhaps, some research could be done to genetically breed strains of
roses that are tolerant of indoor conditions. Since there are roses
that grow in cooler climates, perhaps they could be developed to like
similar temperatures to indoor conditions.

Oh yeah, the conversation around here is very cyclical, just like
gardening is. We are about to get an increased volume of postings as
people get out and putz around with their roses during growing season.
We are now on the cusp of going from virtually no postings to an
explosion of interest in gabbing about the hobby. Still, this is a
fairly mature newsgroup (in terms of age - I know that *I'm* not
particularly mature g). That means that many subjects are old hat
and have been rehashed many times. So, a lot of the conversation in
the coming months will be connected with helping newbies to the hobby
and talking about new varieties. This doesn't mean that we don't like
talking about roses though.

Well, now I think I'll retire to thoughts of pruning, fertilizing and
wish-list making...

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Hi Philip,

I understand.

For myself, I thought a specific forum was necessary for the fragrant
miniatures. As it stands, it's very difficult to identify all of the
fragrant miniatures. Many of them appear "lost" in the sea of other
varieties, some may have slipped into obscurity, some are only
mentioned in particular forums or publications, etc. I think a
thorough search and record of these varieties is essential. There are
outstanding varieties, both new and old, that are virtually unknown
among rosarians, even some who specialize in miniatures! I think
these varieties could be much more popular if the general public could
become aware of them. The average miniature rose I see in local
stores is non-fragrant, not an identified cultivar, and often
disappointing for other reasons. I think these factors have severely
harmed the public awareness and oinion of miniature roses. There
doesn't seem to be any valid reason that it must remain so.

I wish to see further development of new varieties, which may be
accelerated with further attention given to the subject. I personally
will be attempting to develop new varieties. There is no guarantee of
success, but I think if I persevere, I increase my chances.

I apologize for the disgruntled nature of my previous message.

Dan

Philip Lewis wrote in message .edu...
(Dan Gannon) writes:
Is there no interest among English-speaking people, in fragrant
miniature roses? I'm not going to keep the Fragrant Miniature

While I personally am interested in miniatures (and bonsai, and other
dwarfed species... sucks to only have a small yard I do not feel
I have sufficient interest in joining yet another yahoogroup. This
newsgroup is about roses in general so miniature rose discussion would
be on topic here. Personally, i'll stay/ask here if i have
questions on miniatures.

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Xref: kermit rec.gardens.roses:97482

Hi Philip,

I understand.

For myself, I thought a specific forum was necessary for the fragrant
miniatures. As it stands, it's very difficult to identify all of the
fragrant miniatures. Many of them appear "lost" in the sea of other
varieties, some may have slipped into obscurity, some are only
mentioned in particular forums or publications, etc. I think a
thorough search and record of these varieties is essential. There are
outstanding varieties, both new and old, that are virtually unknown
among rosarians, even some who specialize in miniatures! I think
these varieties could be much more popular if the general public could
become aware of them. The average miniature rose I see in local
stores is non-fragrant, not an identified cultivar, and often
disappointing for other reasons. I think these factors have severely
harmed the public awareness and oinion of miniature roses. There
doesn't seem to be any valid reason that it must remain so.

I wish to see further development of new varieties, which may be
accelerated with further attention given to the subject. I personally
will be attempting to develop new varieties. There is no guarantee of
success, but I think if I persevere, I increase my chances.

I apologize for the disgruntled nature of my previous message.

Dan

Philip Lewis wrote in message .edu...
(Dan Gannon) writes:
Is there no interest among English-speaking people, in fragrant
miniature roses? I'm not going to keep the Fragrant Miniature

While I personally am interested in miniatures (and bonsai, and other
dwarfed species... sucks to only have a small yard I do not feel
I have sufficient interest in joining yet another yahoogroup. This
newsgroup is about roses in general so miniature rose discussion would
be on topic here. Personally, i'll stay/ask here if i have
questions on miniatures.

Mike,

I apologize if I've offended you. It was also not my intention to
threaten; I was stating my thoughts and feelings honestly, though
perhaps without tact. If nobody's interested, is it a threat t say
I'll take my efforts elsewhere?

I'm afraid you're mistaken about my "elitist worldview." I'm a native
English speaker. Granted, I'm dissatisfied with some things in the
culture I belong to. But that's not the same as elitism.

You are certainly free to pass, of course. As is everyone - including
myself.

Dan

Mike wrote in message ...
On 8 Mar 2004, (Dan Gannon) wrote:
(Dan Gannon) wrote in message
.com...
everyone is welcome:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fragrant_mini_roses

Is there no interest among English-speaking people, in fragrant
miniature roses? I'm not going to keep the Fragrant Miniature
Roses group open forever with no participation. This is quite
depressing.

At least I know speakers of many other languages are keenly
interested in this topic. Need the English-speaking world lose
out? You decide. Right now, I'm feeling like I'm only going to
contribute in other languages. (Cantonese, Spanish, Thai, etc.)

Phooey!

Dan

Ummm.. you're coming off a bit strong there, Dan. It's a turn-off. Sounds
like you're scolding and threatening us if we don't join your group. Then
there's that elitist worldview that English-speaking people are boors
slipping into your rant that'll just charm the pants off everyone. Pass.

Mike

Mike,

I apologize if I've offended you. It was also not my intention to
threaten; I was stating my thoughts and feelings honestly, though
perhaps without tact. If nobody's interested, is it a threat t say
I'll take my efforts elsewhere?

I'm afraid you're mistaken about my "elitist worldview." I'm a native
English speaker. Granted, I'm dissatisfied with some things in the
culture I belong to. But that's not the same as elitism.

You are certainly free to pass, of course. As is everyone - including
myself.

Dan

Mike wrote in message ...
On 8 Mar 2004, (Dan Gannon) wrote:
(Dan Gannon) wrote in message
.com...
everyone is welcome:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fragrant_mini_roses

Is there no interest among English-speaking people, in fragrant
miniature roses? I'm not going to keep the Fragrant Miniature
Roses group open forever with no participation. This is quite
depressing.

At least I know speakers of many other languages are keenly
interested in this topic. Need the English-speaking world lose
out? You decide. Right now, I'm feeling like I'm only going to
contribute in other languages. (Cantonese, Spanish, Thai, etc.)

Phooey!

Dan

Ummm.. you're coming off a bit strong there, Dan. It's a turn-off. Sounds
like you're scolding and threatening us if we don't join your group. Then
there's that elitist worldview that English-speaking people are boors
slipping into your rant that'll just charm the pants off everyone. Pass.

Mike

"Dan Gannon" wrote in message
om...
Hello, everyone!

You're invited to my new Yahoo Group, "Fragrant Miniature Roses." The
purpose of the group is identifying, discussing and sharing photos of
the fragrant miniatures.

Here's the link:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fragrant_mini_roses/


I have never understood the need of people to create a create specialized
categories, when the volume for that subject is so low. Most of the
questions about minis in rec.gardens.roses are along the lines of "I bought
this mini at the nursery on impulse, and now it's dying, please help"

"If you build it, they will come" only worked in field of dreams. But I
guess the lack of membership to your group has proven that.

Sameer

On 8 Mar 2004 13:40:58 -0800, (Dan Gannon) wrote:

I think fragrant miniatures have great potential, for use in planters
and pots, both indoors and outdoors.

I wanted to commend you on taking my "berating" in a positive spirit.
You're probably less defensive than *I* would have been.

I didn't really want to respond to your response point by point, but I
*did* want to respond to this point.

Someone else alluded to this, but I think that you really shouldn't
consider roses of any kind as an indoor plant. Sure, one might have
limited success, but roses are really outdoor plants. The biggest
problem isn't light - as you alluded to, lighting can be duplicated.
The problem is that roses don't *generally* like to live in the same
environment that most humans enjoy. They like open air and *generally*
higher daytime temperatures than humans like. They don't particularly
like to have their roots confined and they are easily affected by
spider mites in "placid" air conditions (not to be confused with "air
conditioning"). I suspect that they are genetically programmed to
respond to the normal differences between day and night temperatures
as well.

But (I hear you say now), that's the same as orchids, right? Well,
sorta. However, orchids are different in that they are almost
succulents and can withstand spider mites for a little longer than the
paper thin leaves of miniature roses. Plus, they seem a little more
suited to the kinds of climates that humans find comfortable (in that
you can actually use lights to create little micro-climates - but
again, circulation is key for them as well).

There are certain places where you might be able to easily grow roses
"indoors". I'm thinking of Southern California or Hawaiian rooms that
might involve walled in porches and the like (you know, those
wonderful homes that don't need air conditioning and you can leave
open year round if yu choose). but for the average apartment dweller,
I think it would be a stuggle to keep an indoor miniature rose happy
for very long. Sure, you can have success for weeks or even months at
a time, I suppose, but really, to be successful, the plant needs to
breath fresh outdoor air instead of canned, recirculating air
conditioned air, even if it's humidified. This is just a guess on my
part.

Perhaps, some research could be done to genetically breed strains of
roses that are tolerant of indoor conditions. Since there are roses
that grow in cooler climates, perhaps they could be developed to like
similar temperatures to indoor conditions.

Oh yeah, the conversation around here is very cyclical, just like
gardening is. We are about to get an increased volume of postings as
people get out and putz around with their roses during growing season.
We are now on the cusp of going from virtually no postings to an
explosion of interest in gabbing about the hobby. Still, this is a
fairly mature newsgroup (in terms of age - I know that *I'm* not
particularly mature g). That means that many subjects are old hat
and have been rehashed many times. So, a lot of the conversation in
the coming months will be connected with helping newbies to the hobby
and talking about new varieties. This doesn't mean that we don't like
talking about roses though.

Well, now I think I'll retire to thoughts of pruning, fertilizing and
wish-list making...

"Dan Gannon" wrote in message
om...
Hello, everyone!

You're invited to my new Yahoo Group, "Fragrant Miniature Roses." The
purpose of the group is identifying, discussing and sharing photos of
the fragrant miniatures.

Here's the link:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fragrant_mini_roses/


I have never understood the need of people to create a create specialized
categories, when the volume for that subject is so low. Most of the
questions about minis in rec.gardens.roses are along the lines of "I bought
this mini at the nursery on impulse, and now it's dying, please help"

"If you build it, they will come" only worked in field of dreams. But I
guess the lack of membership to your group has proven that.

Sameer

On 8 Mar 2004 13:40:58 -0800, (Dan Gannon) wrote:

I think fragrant miniatures have great potential, for use in planters
and pots, both indoors and outdoors.

I wanted to commend you on taking my "berating" in a positive spirit.
You're probably less defensive than *I* would have been.

I didn't really want to respond to your response point by point, but I
*did* want to respond to this point.

Someone else alluded to this, but I think that you really shouldn't
consider roses of any kind as an indoor plant. Sure, one might have
limited success, but roses are really outdoor plants. The biggest
problem isn't light - as you alluded to, lighting can be duplicated.
The problem is that roses don't *generally* like to live in the same
environment that most humans enjoy. They like open air and *generally*
higher daytime temperatures than humans like. They don't particularly
like to have their roots confined and they are easily affected by
spider mites in "placid" air conditions (not to be confused with "air
conditioning"). I suspect that they are genetically programmed to
respond to the normal differences between day and night temperatures
as well.

But (I hear you say now), that's the same as orchids, right? Well,
sorta. However, orchids are different in that they are almost
succulents and can withstand spider mites for a little longer than the
paper thin leaves of miniature roses. Plus, they seem a little more
suited to the kinds of climates that humans find comfortable (in that
you can actually use lights to create little micro-climates - but
again, circulation is key for them as well).

There are certain places where you might be able to easily grow roses
"indoors". I'm thinking of Southern California or Hawaiian rooms that
might involve walled in porches and the like (you know, those
wonderful homes that don't need air conditioning and you can leave
open year round if yu choose). but for the average apartment dweller,
I think it would be a stuggle to keep an indoor miniature rose happy
for very long. Sure, you can have success for weeks or even months at
a time, I suppose, but really, to be successful, the plant needs to
breath fresh outdoor air instead of canned, recirculating air
conditioned air, even if it's humidified. This is just a guess on my
part.

Perhaps, some research could be done to genetically breed strains of
roses that are tolerant of indoor conditions. Since there are roses
that grow in cooler climates, perhaps they could be developed to like
similar temperatures to indoor conditions.

Oh yeah, the conversation around here is very cyclical, just like
gardening is. We are about to get an increased volume of postings as
people get out and putz around with their roses during growing season.
We are now on the cusp of going from virtually no postings to an
explosion of interest in gabbing about the hobby. Still, this is a
fairly mature newsgroup (in terms of age - I know that *I'm* not
particularly mature g). That means that many subjects are old hat
and have been rehashed many times. So, a lot of the conversation in
the coming months will be connected with helping newbies to the hobby
and talking about new varieties. This doesn't mean that we don't like
talking about roses though.

Well, now I think I'll retire to thoughts of pruning, fertilizing and
wish-list making...

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Xref: kermit rec.gardens.roses:97482

Hi Philip,

I understand.

For myself, I thought a specific forum was necessary for the fragrant
miniatures. As it stands, it's very difficult to identify all of the
fragrant miniatures. Many of them appear "lost" in the sea of other
varieties, some may have slipped into obscurity, some are only
mentioned in particular forums or publications, etc. I think a
thorough search and record of these varieties is essential. There are
outstanding varieties, both new and old, that are virtually unknown
among rosarians, even some who specialize in miniatures! I think
these varieties could be much more popular if the general public could
become aware of them. The average miniature rose I see in local
stores is non-fragrant, not an identified cultivar, and often
disappointing for other reasons. I think these factors have severely
harmed the public awareness and oinion of miniature roses. There
doesn't seem to be any valid reason that it must remain so.

I wish to see further development of new varieties, which may be
accelerated with further attention given to the subject. I personally
will be attempting to develop new varieties. There is no guarantee of
success, but I think if I persevere, I increase my chances.

I apologize for the disgruntled nature of my previous message.

Dan

Philip Lewis wrote in message .edu...
(Dan Gannon) writes:
Is there no interest among English-speaking people, in fragrant
miniature roses? I'm not going to keep the Fragrant Miniature

While I personally am interested in miniatures (and bonsai, and other
dwarfed species... sucks to only have a small yard I do not feel
I have sufficient interest in joining yet another yahoogroup. This
newsgroup is about roses in general so miniature rose discussion would
be on topic here. Personally, i'll stay/ask here if i have
questions on miniatures.

On 8 Mar 2004 13:40:58 -0800, (Dan Gannon) wrote:

I think fragrant miniatures have great potential, for use in planters
and pots, both indoors and outdoors.

I wanted to commend you on taking my "berating" in a positive spirit.
You're probably less defensive than *I* would have been.

I didn't really want to respond to your response point by point, but I
*did* want to respond to this point.

Someone else alluded to this, but I think that you really shouldn't
consider roses of any kind as an indoor plant. Sure, one might have
limited success, but roses are really outdoor plants. The biggest
problem isn't light - as you alluded to, lighting can be duplicated.
The problem is that roses don't *generally* like to live in the same
environment that most humans enjoy. They like open air and *generally*
higher daytime temperatures than humans like. They don't particularly
like to have their roots confined and they are easily affected by
spider mites in "placid" air conditions (not to be confused with "air
conditioning"). I suspect that they are genetically programmed to
respond to the normal differences between day and night temperatures
as well.

But (I hear you say now), that's the same as orchids, right? Well,
sorta. However, orchids are different in that they are almost
succulents and can withstand spider mites for a little longer than the
paper thin leaves of miniature roses. Plus, they seem a little more
suited to the kinds of climates that humans find comfortable (in that
you can actually use lights to create little micro-climates - but
again, circulation is key for them as well).

There are certain places where you might be able to easily grow roses
"indoors". I'm thinking of Southern California or Hawaiian rooms that
might involve walled in porches and the like (you know, those
wonderful homes that don't need air conditioning and you can leave
open year round if yu choose). but for the average apartment dweller,
I think it would be a stuggle to keep an indoor miniature rose happy
for very long. Sure, you can have success for weeks or even months at
a time, I suppose, but really, to be successful, the plant needs to
breath fresh outdoor air instead of canned, recirculating air
conditioned air, even if it's humidified. This is just a guess on my
part.

Perhaps, some research could be done to genetically breed strains of
roses that are tolerant of indoor conditions. Since there are roses
that grow in cooler climates, perhaps they could be developed to like
similar temperatures to indoor conditions.

Oh yeah, the conversation around here is very cyclical, just like
gardening is. We are about to get an increased volume of postings as
people get out and putz around with their roses during growing season.
We are now on the cusp of going from virtually no postings to an
explosion of interest in gabbing about the hobby. Still, this is a
fairly mature newsgroup (in terms of age - I know that *I'm* not
particularly mature g). That means that many subjects are old hat
and have been rehashed many times. So, a lot of the conversation in
the coming months will be connected with helping newbies to the hobby
and talking about new varieties. This doesn't mean that we don't like
talking about roses though.

Well, now I think I'll retire to thoughts of pruning, fertilizing and
wish-list making...

Mike,

I apologize if I've offended you. It was also not my intention to
threaten; I was stating my thoughts and feelings honestly, though
perhaps without tact. If nobody's interested, is it a threat t say
I'll take my efforts elsewhere?

I'm afraid you're mistaken about my "elitist worldview." I'm a native
English speaker. Granted, I'm dissatisfied with some things in the
culture I belong to. But that's not the same as elitism.

You are certainly free to pass, of course. As is everyone - including
myself.

Dan

Mike wrote in message ...
On 8 Mar 2004, (Dan Gannon) wrote:
(Dan Gannon) wrote in message
.com...
everyone is welcome:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fragrant_mini_roses

Is there no interest among English-speaking people, in fragrant
miniature roses? I'm not going to keep the Fragrant Miniature
Roses group open forever with no participation. This is quite
depressing.

At least I know speakers of many other languages are keenly
interested in this topic. Need the English-speaking world lose
out? You decide. Right now, I'm feeling like I'm only going to
contribute in other languages. (Cantonese, Spanish, Thai, etc.)

Phooey!

Dan

Ummm.. you're coming off a bit strong there, Dan. It's a turn-off. Sounds
like you're scolding and threatening us if we don't join your group. Then
there's that elitist worldview that English-speaking people are boors
slipping into your rant that'll just charm the pants off everyone. Pass.

Mike

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Xref: kermit rec.gardens.roses:97482

Hi Philip,

I understand.

For myself, I thought a specific forum was necessary for the fragrant
miniatures. As it stands, it's very difficult to identify all of the
fragrant miniatures. Many of them appear "lost" in the sea of other
varieties, some may have slipped into obscurity, some are only
mentioned in particular forums or publications, etc. I think a
thorough search and record of these varieties is essential. There are
outstanding varieties, both new and old, that are virtually unknown
among rosarians, even some who specialize in miniatures! I think
these varieties could be much more popular if the general public could
become aware of them. The average miniature rose I see in local
stores is non-fragrant, not an identified cultivar, and often
disappointing for other reasons. I think these factors have severely
harmed the public awareness and oinion of miniature roses. There
doesn't seem to be any valid reason that it must remain so.

I wish to see further development of new varieties, which may be
accelerated with further attention given to the subject. I personally
will be attempting to develop new varieties. There is no guarantee of
success, but I think if I persevere, I increase my chances.

I apologize for the disgruntled nature of my previous message.

Dan

Philip Lewis wrote in message .edu...
(Dan Gannon) writes:
Is there no interest among English-speaking people, in fragrant
miniature roses? I'm not going to keep the Fragrant Miniature

While I personally am interested in miniatures (and bonsai, and other
dwarfed species... sucks to only have a small yard I do not feel
I have sufficient interest in joining yet another yahoogroup. This
newsgroup is about roses in general so miniature rose discussion would
be on topic here. Personally, i'll stay/ask here if i have
questions on miniatures.