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Old 15-03-2004, 03:58 AM
Mark. Gooley
 
Posts: n/a
Default Antique roses at...WalMart?

Yep. Old Blush, St. David's, Blush Noisette, Mutabilis,
and a few others, apparently on their own roots, for about
$7 each at a WalMart StuporCenter in north Florida, fairly
good size in 2-ish gallon pots. First they sell some own-root
bare-root bushes, roots packed in wood waste in those
nasty little plastic-wrapped cylinders, earlier in the year,
and now this.

Yeah, I bought a couple that I don't already have. Mixed
emotions he it's good to see fine old varieties offered
in the mass market, and apparently on their own roots, but
this might do the small rose nurseries more harm than good:
people will expect bigger plants for less money. Compared
with the small but vigorous bushes I have gotten by mail-order
from e.g. The Uncommon Rose and Chamblee's, these are
giants (if a bit bedraggled from shipping and WalMart
handling) -- and that's the problem.

Mark., should have spotted the trend coming





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Old 28-03-2004, 06:03 AM
Darren Garrison
 
Posts: n/a
Default Antique roses at...WalMart?

Bought some two-gallon roses at Wal-Mart today, myself. I know that it is a big no-no to buy the
hacked-root, packed in sawdust ones but should these be okay, even though they are from Wal-Mart?
Last week I bought a "Livin' Easy" two-gallon from there for $12.97 (from Weeks) and the ones I
bought today ranged from $5.97 to $7.88. I bought:

Tropicana
Gold Glow
Chrystler Imperial
Eureka

And one yellow and orange called "Novelty" that appears to be a description rather than the name of
the plant.

Any reason I should expect these sizable, apparently healthy plants to NOT do better than the ones I
have on order from a nursery for 2-3 times the price?



On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 22:10:44 -0500, "Mark. Gooley" wrote:

Yep. Old Blush, St. David's, Blush Noisette, Mutabilis,
and a few others, apparently on their own roots, for about
$7 each at a WalMart StuporCenter in north Florida, fairly
good size in 2-ish gallon pots. First they sell some own-root
bare-root bushes, roots packed in wood waste in those
nasty little plastic-wrapped cylinders, earlier in the year,
and now this.

Yeah, I bought a couple that I don't already have. Mixed
emotions he it's good to see fine old varieties offered
in the mass market, and apparently on their own roots, but
this might do the small rose nurseries more harm than good:
people will expect bigger plants for less money. Compared
with the small but vigorous bushes I have gotten by mail-order
from e.g. The Uncommon Rose and Chamblee's, these are
giants (if a bit bedraggled from shipping and WalMart
handling) -- and that's the problem.

Mark., should have spotted the trend coming





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Old 28-03-2004, 09:32 AM
Mark. Gooley
 
Posts: n/a
Default Antique roses at...WalMart?


"Darren Garrison" wrote:
Bought some two-gallon roses at Wal-Mart today,
myself. I know that it is a big no-no to buy the
hacked-root, packed in sawdust ones but should these
be okay, even though they are from Wal-Mart?
Last week I bought a "Livin' Easy" two-gallon from
there for $12.97 (from Weeks) and the ones I
bought today ranged from $5.97 to $7.88. I bought:

Tropicana

You either like the color or you don't. Oldish garden
standby (1960), good strong fragrance, looks like the
hybrid tea it is. (I'm sick of the shape of HT flowers.)
Gold Glow

1959, also smelly, also a hybrid tea in looks and fact.
One parent was Sutter's Gold, which is a tough oldish
thing, once ubiquitous. Beales has a story about seeing
a huge bush of Sutter's Gold, untended, in Australia.
Chrysler Imperial

Reliable oldish (1952) standard red garden standby.
Also nicely smelly; I'm told it was used to help market
the car of the same name. Said to be prone to powdery
mildew.
Eureka

Dunno. There's a recent (2002) Kordes rose of that name.
Yellow, not very smelly, but Kordes roses tend to be
tough as nails. Floribunda, probably won't grow large.

And one yellow and orange called "Novelty" that
appears to be a description rather than the name of
the plant.

Could be. I can't find anything on it.

Any reason I should expect these sizable, apparently
healthy plants to NOT do better than the ones I have
on order from a nursery for 2-3 times the price?


Well, they're probably grafted plants, probably on "Dr.
Huey" rootstock. Which rootstock may well be okay
for your area. The nursery plants you have on order
are probably grafted onto Dr. Huey as well, unless
it's a nursery specializing in own-root roses (as opposed
to, say, Wayside Gardens; heck, some varieties shipped by
Jackson and Perkins mail-order these days are own-root),
or it's in Florida and uses R. fortuniana as a rootstock (it
tolerates the climate and the nematodes.

(What boggled my mind and led me to my original post in
this thread was the classic old varieties that Wal-Mart was
offering, and that they seemed to be on their own roots [I
saw no sign of a graft union.])

They should be okay: nothing way special, but okay value
for money, and Tropicana and Chrysler Imperial have stood
the test of time. I prefer own-root roses (just yanked a sucker
off the base of my grafted Blanc Double de Coubert: time to
take cuttings and root them, if not long overdue) but Heaven
knows that the cheapness of mass-produced grafted ones has
led me to buy more than my share of those.

Mark.




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Old 28-03-2004, 11:02 AM
Mike
 
Posts: n/a
Default Antique roses at...WalMart?

Darren Garrison asks:

...Any reason I should expect these sizable, apparently healthy plants to NOT
do better than the ones I have on order from a nursery for 2-3 times the price?


Yes. The old adage "you get what you pay for" applies. First off, you're
not getting the same grade on grafted or budded roses. You're getting grade
1 1/2 (sometimes generously applied,) which means "we cannot sell this rose
ourselves as grade 1 - let's ship it to Wal-Mart and let them sell it."
They might even be selling roses from a big name nursery everyone
recognizes and trusts, but only because that nursery doesn't want to sell
the inferior grade directly. Grade 1 1/2 isn't a poor rose, but it's not as
healthy and vigorous as a grade 1.

There's also the lack of any responsibility on the part of the seller.
Wal-Mart is not concerned about its reputation when it sells you a rose.
There's no guarantee. If your rose has been mislabeled, or you discover
mosaic patterns on the leaves, you're pretty much stuck with what you've
bought. You *might* be able to return the rose if it's in the original pot
with all the labels attached, you have the receipt and too much time hasn't
passed. Not a very likely set of circumstances.

You should also go back a week or so after these chain stores first receive
their roses in spring and notice the rampant spread of disease. They don't
hire people who know how to care for roses. They simply overhead water them
every day and the roses are usually crammed together, creating a most
welcoming environment for fungal spores. I'd almost guarantee your rose
came home with a fungal disease, even if you didn't see symptoms when it
was purchased.

When you pay a little more to buy roses directly from a reputable nursery,
you get grade 1. Most guarantee the rose to be virus-free. They manage
their plants to keep them free of pests and disease. If your rose succumbs
the first season, most will replace it at no cost to you and they will not
require return. If you are still not satisfied, you have recourse in the
form of public forums (i.e. Garden Watchdog.) These places care about their
reputations. Not too many people will stop shopping at Wal-Mart because
your Tropicana turned out to be Brilliant Pink Iceberg and Wal-Mart knows
this.

Of course, you may luck out and your rose will be fine. It's a gamble. That
rose may only be $6.00 or $7.00, but you have to dig the hole, plant it,
mulch it, feed it, water it, etc. You've got more than just a few bucks
invested in it's success.

Mike



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Old 28-03-2004, 11:12 AM
Mike
 
Posts: n/a
Default Antique roses at...WalMart?

Darren Garrison asks:

...Any reason I should expect these sizable, apparently healthy plants to NOT
do better than the ones I have on order from a nursery for 2-3 times the price?


Yes. The old adage "you get what you pay for" applies. First off, you're
not getting the same grade on grafted or budded roses. You're getting grade
1 1/2 (sometimes generously applied,) which means "we cannot sell this rose
ourselves as grade 1 - let's ship it to Wal-Mart and let them sell it."
They might even be selling roses from a big name nursery everyone
recognizes and trusts, but only because that nursery doesn't want to sell
the inferior grade directly. Grade 1 1/2 isn't a poor rose, but it's not as
healthy and vigorous as a grade 1.

There's also the lack of any responsibility on the part of the seller.
Wal-Mart is not concerned about its reputation when it sells you a rose.
There's no guarantee. If your rose has been mislabeled, or you discover
mosaic patterns on the leaves, you're pretty much stuck with what you've
bought. You *might* be able to return the rose if it's in the original pot
with all the labels attached, you have the receipt and too much time hasn't
passed. Not a very likely set of circumstances.

You should also go back a week or so after these chain stores first receive
their roses in spring and notice the rampant spread of disease. They don't
hire people who know how to care for roses. They simply overhead water them
every day and the roses are usually crammed together, creating a most
welcoming environment for fungal spores. I'd almost guarantee your rose
came home with a fungal disease, even if you didn't see symptoms when it
was purchased.

When you pay a little more to buy roses directly from a reputable nursery,
you get grade 1. Most guarantee the rose to be virus-free. They manage
their plants to keep them free of pests and disease. If your rose succumbs
the first season, most will replace it at no cost to you and they will not
require return. If you are still not satisfied, you have recourse in the
form of public forums (i.e. Garden Watchdog.) These places care about their
reputations. Not too many people will stop shopping at Wal-Mart because
your Tropicana turned out to be Brilliant Pink Iceberg and Wal-Mart knows
this.

Of course, you may luck out and your rose will be fine. It's a gamble. That
rose may only be $6.00 or $7.00, but you have to dig the hole, plant it,
mulch it, feed it, water it, etc. You've got more than just a few bucks
invested in it's success.

Mike





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Old 28-03-2004, 04:02 PM
Hamp
 
Posts: n/a
Default Antique roses at...WalMart?

I bought two potted roses from Wally World last year late at a
discount price (Climbing America and Climbing Joseph's Coat), both
did real well. I bought one of the "frowned upon bare root in saw
dust and plastic bag" (Sally Holmes) mid March this year. It was "own
root". I live in zone 7/8 and ammended my clayish soil as usual with
compost and organic matter, planted, mulched , fertilized with timed
released fertilizer, and watered. It has really taken off and has
buds.
Haven't seen any of the potted own root roses yet here in Mississippi.
Hamp

Darren Garrison wrote in message . ..
Bought some two-gallon roses at Wal-Mart today, myself. I know that it is a big no-no to buy the
hacked-root, packed in sawdust ones but should these be okay, even though they are from Wal-Mart?
Last week I bought a "Livin' Easy" two-gallon from there for $12.97 (from Weeks) and the ones I
bought today ranged from $5.97 to $7.88. I bought:

Tropicana
Gold Glow
Chrystler Imperial
Eureka

And one yellow and orange called "Novelty" that appears to be a description rather than the name of
the plant.

Any reason I should expect these sizable, apparently healthy plants to NOT do better than the ones I
have on order from a nursery for 2-3 times the price?



On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 22:10:44 -0500, "Mark. Gooley" wrote:

Yep. Old Blush, St. David's, Blush Noisette, Mutabilis,
and a few others, apparently on their own roots, for about
$7 each at a WalMart StuporCenter in north Florida, fairly
good size in 2-ish gallon pots. First they sell some own-root
bare-root bushes, roots packed in wood waste in those
nasty little plastic-wrapped cylinders, earlier in the year,
and now this.

Yeah, I bought a couple that I don't already have. Mixed
emotions he it's good to see fine old varieties offered
in the mass market, and apparently on their own roots, but
this might do the small rose nurseries more harm than good:
people will expect bigger plants for less money. Compared
with the small but vigorous bushes I have gotten by mail-order
from e.g. The Uncommon Rose and Chamblee's, these are
giants (if a bit bedraggled from shipping and WalMart
handling) -- and that's the problem.

Mark., should have spotted the trend coming



  #7   Report Post  
Old 28-03-2004, 04:13 PM
Hamp
 
Posts: n/a
Default Antique roses at...WalMart?

"Mark. Gooley" wrote in message ...
Yep. Old Blush, St. David's, Blush Noisette, Mutabilis,
and a few others, apparently on their own roots, for about
$7 each at a WalMart StuporCenter in north Florida, fairly
good size in 2-ish gallon pots. First they sell some own-root
bare-root bushes, roots packed in wood waste in those
nasty little plastic-wrapped cylinders, earlier in the year,
and now this.

Yeah, I bought a couple that I don't already have. Mixed
emotions he it's good to see fine old varieties offered
in the mass market, and apparently on their own roots, but
this might do the small rose nurseries more harm than good:
people will expect bigger plants for less money. Compared
with the small but vigorous bushes I have gotten by mail-order
from e.g. The Uncommon Rose and Chamblee's, these are
giants (if a bit bedraggled from shipping and WalMart
handling) -- and that's the problem.

Mark., should have spotted the trend coming


Obviously Mike doesn't work at Walmart. Wonder which Rose Nursery
he's affliatedwith that's getting hurt by the super centers. I try
not to be prejudiced against or for any seller. I want a decent
product at a fair price. Often I get this from online sources such as
Chamblees or Antique Rose Imporium and local Nurserys but I'm not
opposed to purchasing anything from any source if I want. As to
Walmart's return policy, it's far better than any nursery or online
retailer I've dealt with. They will give a replacement or refund with
no questions.
Hamp
  #8   Report Post  
Old 28-03-2004, 04:53 PM
Sunflower
 
Posts: n/a
Default Antique roses at...WalMart?


"Darren Garrison" wrote in message
...
Bought some two-gallon roses at Wal-Mart today, myself. I know that it is

a big no-no to buy the
hacked-root, packed in sawdust ones but should these be okay, even though

they are from Wal-Mart?
Last week I bought a "Livin' Easy" two-gallon from there for $12.97 (from

Weeks) and the ones I
bought today ranged from $5.97 to $7.88. I bought:

Tropicana
Gold Glow
Chrystler Imperial
Eureka

And one yellow and orange called "Novelty" that appears to be a

description rather than the name of
the plant.

Any reason I should expect these sizable, apparently healthy plants to NOT

do better than the ones I
have on order from a nursery for 2-3 times the price?


Wally World buys it's low cost crap from the cheap Texas growers who have an
epidemic of Rose Mosaic Virus. THey send the grade 1 1/2 or 2 plants to
canners who pot up the leftover roses that won't even make it to waxed
hackroot status at the discount Marts. Good thing roses are resilient
creatures that bounce back from a lot of abuse. Because once unloaded off
the truck, they'll receive no tender loving care for sure. They're likely
to be inside the shade structure and drowned while the hosta sit in full sun
and go dry or suffer any number of non creative moronic plant abuse.
Occasionally you can find a gem of a rose embedded in the manure, but it
takes a knowledgable eye and a lot of searching. There has been a
heartening trend of seeing antique roses ownroot at the Orange Borg and
others, but they too suffer the tortures of the minimum wage generation ADD
attendants.

Sunflower
MS 7b


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Old 29-03-2004, 12:12 PM
rose_luver
 
Posts: n/a
Default Antique roses at...WalMart?

Mike wrote in message .. .
On 28 Mar 2004, (Hamp) responded:

Obviously Mike doesn't work at Walmart. Wonder which Rose Nursery
he's affliated with that's getting hurt by the super centers.


No, I don't work at Wal-Mart. Do you? I am not affiliated with any rose
nursery.

I try not to be prejudiced against or for any seller.


If you are not "prejudiced" against a seller that consistently sells
inferior product, than you are an idiot.

As to Walmart's return policy, it's far better than any nursery or online
retailer I've dealt with. They will give a replacement or refund with
no questions.
Hamp


Wal-Mart will not give a refund or replacement without a receipt and the
original product being returned, as stated in my post. They will
definitely not refund or replace a rose that's been in the ground for six
months under any circumstances, unlike most rose vendors, such as the two
you mentioned, who guarantee their roses throughout the first growing
season and do not require a receipt or return for refund or replacement.

As I said at the beginning of my original post - you get what you pay for.
That was the whole point.

Mike


As my mother once said "children, children, stop that before someone
gets hurt!
Each to his own opinion which you both have strongly but differently.
Differing opinions are great but let's try not to impose ours on
others, this is called arrogance. And Mike, please don't call anyone
an "idiot".
Rose


  #11   Report Post  
Old 29-03-2004, 01:32 PM
Mike
 
Posts: n/a
Default Antique roses at...WalMart?

On 29 Mar 2004, (rose_luver) wrote:

As my mother once said "children, children, stop that before someone
gets hurt!
Each to his own opinion which you both have strongly but differently.
Differing opinions are great but let's try not to impose ours on
others, this is called arrogance. And Mike, please don't call anyone
an "idiot".
Rose


Rose - I was responding to a direct question posted here by Darren as to
why a cheap rose from Wal-Mart would not be expected to be of the same
quality as the same rose costing more from a rose nursery. No one is
*imposing* their opinions on anyone here. We were asked.

When Hamp jumped in and accused me of shilling for a rose nursery, being
"prejudiced" against Wal-Mart and challenging the statements I had made, It
was perfectly acceptable for me to respond to his accusations and stand by
the statements I had made in my original post.

The "idiot" comment was appropriate and matched Hamp's tone to a tee. But
just because you brought it up, let me be clear. "You" means "anyone" in
my statement, and I DO believe that if you continue to spend money on
inferior products simply because you don't want to appear "prejudiced"
against a particular vendor, then you ARE an idiot. That is my opinion and
it was my choice to be blunt in this particular instance. People tend to be
just as polite as you are to them. It's called mirroring and it's human
nature.

Thanks for your concern, but I think we were done anyway.

Mike



  #12   Report Post  
Old 30-03-2004, 01:07 AM
Hamp
 
Posts: n/a
Default Antique roses at...WalMart?

Rose, I, in no way intended to ruffle the feathers of anyone. I
obviously came across wrong and for that I appologize. The point I
was making was that some of us have more time than money and have to
shop the culls (inferior products) at the discount centers. An
example is that my first rose came from Walmart, a left over from the
previous year in a 4 inch pot. It was in March and the rose among
other plants was on a discount table marked $1.oo. It was trying to
bud out and roots were coming out everywhere, inferior product yes but
cheap. I didn't then or now know what the rose was. I planted it in
the wrong spot (only about 4 hours of morning sun) and it flourished.
I've propogated countless plants from this one and it is still in the
same spot and has bloomed it's little head off. Except for a little
spring black spot it has never had any problems with disease or pests.
I've since gotten about 35 roses, some from discount stores, some
from reputable nurserys and some from mail order suppliers. Perhaps
the discount store varieties are inferior and need a little extra TLC
but what the heck, I do have more time than money. By the way, today
I purchased two from Home Depot, Compte de Chambard and Reine des
Violettes for $6.95 each, potted and budded ready to bloom, good root
structure. As I tried to say unsuccessfully before, I have had
success with discount store products regardless of what anyone says.
Hamp
(rose_luver) wrote in message . com...
Mike wrote in message .. .
On 28 Mar 2004,
(Hamp) responded:

Obviously Mike doesn't work at Walmart. Wonder which Rose Nursery
he's affliated with that's getting hurt by the super centers.


No, I don't work at Wal-Mart. Do you? I am not affiliated with any rose
nursery.

I try not to be prejudiced against or for any seller.


If you are not "prejudiced" against a seller that consistently sells
inferior product, than you are an idiot.

As to Walmart's return policy, it's far better than any nursery or online
retailer I've dealt with. They will give a replacement or refund with
no questions.
Hamp


Wal-Mart will not give a refund or replacement without a receipt and the
original product being returned, as stated in my post. They will
definitely not refund or replace a rose that's been in the ground for six
months under any circumstances, unlike most rose vendors, such as the two
you mentioned, who guarantee their roses throughout the first growing
season and do not require a receipt or return for refund or replacement.

As I said at the beginning of my original post - you get what you pay for.
That was the whole point.

Mike


As my mother once said "children, children, stop that before someone
gets hurt!
Each to his own opinion which you both have strongly but differently.
Differing opinions are great but let's try not to impose ours on
others, this is called arrogance. And Mike, please don't call anyone
an "idiot".
Rose

  #13   Report Post  
Old 06-04-2004, 08:15 PM
theoneflasehaddock
 
Posts: n/a
Default Antique roses at...WalMart?

(Hamp) wrote in message . com...
"Mark. Gooley" wrote in message ...
Yep. Old Blush, St. David's, Blush Noisette, Mutabilis,
and a few others, apparently on their own roots, for about
$7 each at a WalMart StuporCenter in north Florida, fairly
good size in 2-ish gallon pots. First they sell some own-root
bare-root bushes, roots packed in wood waste in those
nasty little plastic-wrapped cylinders, earlier in the year,
and now this.

Yeah, I bought a couple that I don't already have. Mixed
emotions he it's good to see fine old varieties offered
in the mass market, and apparently on their own roots, but
this might do the small rose nurseries more harm than good:
people will expect bigger plants for less money. Compared
with the small but vigorous bushes I have gotten by mail-order
from e.g. The Uncommon Rose and Chamblee's, these are
giants (if a bit bedraggled from shipping and WalMart
handling) -- and that's the problem.

Mark., should have spotted the trend coming


Obviously Mike doesn't work at Walmart. Wonder which Rose Nursery
he's affliatedwith that's getting hurt by the super centers. I try
not to be prejudiced against or for any seller. I want a decent
product at a fair price. Often I get this from online sources such as
Chamblees or Antique Rose Imporium and local Nurserys but I'm not
opposed to purchasing anything from any source if I want. As to
Walmart's return policy, it's far better than any nursery or online
retailer I've dealt with. They will give a replacement or refund with
no questions.
Hamp


Oh, sure, criticizing Walmart in favor of other nurseries means he
works for a plant nursery.

Not all who dislike Walmart are paid to dislike it. Personally, I've
gotten plants there that have died almost immediately when put in sun,
becuase they had adjusted to so much shade. Thier conditions aren't
good, and thier plants may well die if not adjusted right.

-
theoneflasehaddock
  #14   Report Post  
Old 06-04-2004, 08:17 PM
theoneflasehaddock
 
Posts: n/a
Default Antique roses at...WalMart?

(rose_luver) wrote in message . com...
Mike wrote in message .. .
On 28 Mar 2004,
(Hamp) responded:

Obviously Mike doesn't work at Walmart. Wonder which Rose Nursery
he's affliated with that's getting hurt by the super centers.


No, I don't work at Wal-Mart. Do you? I am not affiliated with any rose
nursery.

I try not to be prejudiced against or for any seller.


If you are not "prejudiced" against a seller that consistently sells
inferior product, than you are an idiot.

As to Walmart's return policy, it's far better than any nursery or online
retailer I've dealt with. They will give a replacement or refund with
no questions.
Hamp


Wal-Mart will not give a refund or replacement without a receipt and the
original product being returned, as stated in my post. They will
definitely not refund or replace a rose that's been in the ground for six
months under any circumstances, unlike most rose vendors, such as the two
you mentioned, who guarantee their roses throughout the first growing
season and do not require a receipt or return for refund or replacement.

As I said at the beginning of my original post - you get what you pay for.
That was the whole point.

Mike


As my mother once said "children, children, stop that before someone
gets hurt!
Each to his own opinion which you both have strongly but differently.
Differing opinions are great but let's try not to impose ours on
others, this is called arrogance. And Mike, please don't call anyone
an "idiot".
Rose



Yeah, each to their own opinions - so why the **** are you whining at
people for posting their, you hypocritical little whiny bitch?

-
theoneflasehaddock
  #15   Report Post  
Old 06-04-2004, 08:19 PM
ben boorman
 
Posts: n/a
Default Antique roses at...WalMart?

theoneflasehaddock:

I think your reply said a whole lot more about you than anything anyone
ever thought.

ben

theoneflasehaddock wrote:

(rose_luver) wrote in message . com...

Mike wrote in message .. .

On 28 Mar 2004,
(Hamp) responded:

Obviously Mike doesn't work at Walmart. Wonder which Rose Nursery
he's affliated with that's getting hurt by the super centers.

No, I don't work at Wal-Mart. Do you? I am not affiliated with any rose
nursery.


I try not to be prejudiced against or for any seller.

If you are not "prejudiced" against a seller that consistently sells
inferior product, than you are an idiot.


As to Walmart's return policy, it's far better than any nursery or online
retailer I've dealt with. They will give a replacement or refund with
no questions.
Hamp

Wal-Mart will not give a refund or replacement without a receipt and the
original product being returned, as stated in my post. They will
definitely not refund or replace a rose that's been in the ground for six
months under any circumstances, unlike most rose vendors, such as the two
you mentioned, who guarantee their roses throughout the first growing
season and do not require a receipt or return for refund or replacement.

As I said at the beginning of my original post - you get what you pay for.
That was the whole point.

Mike


As my mother once said "children, children, stop that before someone
gets hurt!
Each to his own opinion which you both have strongly but differently.
Differing opinions are great but let's try not to impose ours on
others, this is called arrogance. And Mike, please don't call anyone
an "idiot".
Rose




Yeah, each to their own opinions - so why the **** are you whining at
people for posting their, you hypocritical little whiny bitch?

-
theoneflasehaddock




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