"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 29 Apr 2003 15:46:09 -0500, "Gordon Couger"
wrote:
"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message
Tillage Survey News Release 1995-1996, and still no RR beans in sight:
No-till soybean acres now account for 30 percent of all soybean acres
planted in the U.S."

That's a no till crop not no till farming on a long term basis over a
period
of years

Right on! No till beans is a crop, not a farming system:

On Mon, 28 Apr 2003 00:34:05 -0500, "Gordon Couger":
Before RR cotton and beans there was no such thing as no till
cotton or beans.

We have been able to raise no till crops that way for a lot longer than
that. Experiments have been going on since the 60's. Looking at the
herbicides they used in all the experiment stations in that time frame there
are a number of weeds that are not controlled. As long as you don't have
these weeds and they don't show up you can get away with it. It was not a
viable long term way of farming. Because the weeds quickly show up.

Short term no till is not much benefit to the soil or the farmer other than
save a little money. It is sure no barging for the environment with the
persistent herbicides used at that time.

Play all the word games you want. Without Round Up ready crops long term no
till is not possible with cotton and beans. Unless you do it like the fellow
that rotated wheat and cotton every year. That way he can mange the summer
weeds on the wheat stubble and the winter weeds on the cotton stalks. It was
practical for him because that was all the water he had. If he had enough
water he would have planted all cotton most of the time.

Gordon

"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 29 Apr 2003 15:43:52 -0500, "Gordon Couger"
wrote:


"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 29 Apr 2003 19:05:57 GMT, "David Kendra"
wrote:

Another major concern from farmers that I have spoken to is the fact
that
another major crop with RR technology will interfer with weed control
strategies. They already hve RR soybeans and corn so why add aother
major crop? I for one hope RR wheat is not commercialized.

Assuming RR wheat were commercialised, and a farmer found it to
interfering with his weed control strategy, couldn't it be held
against him, that he was misusing the technology? I mean, for this
concern to truly hold water, it would have to be the case that RR
technology in wheat necessarily would interfere with weed control
strategies, that there is no room for it to be used as just another
tool.

Rememeber there is no what to keep seed truely seprate. Combines will get
in
the wrong feild, fail to be cleaned out properly or some one at the seed
cleaning plant will get the seed mixed up. There are people involed in
every
step of the system that can and do make mistakes. Combines will scatter
if
from feild to feild.

And vice versa, with other RR crops. I guess in a perverse way, each
extra RR crop could be said to limit the utility of the existing.

It is not by any means uncommon to see where a bag of the wrong kind of
wheat seed got planted in a feild at harvest.

We use wheat as a cover crop for no till Round Up Ready cotton. Some
stray
RR wheat would cause an extra spraying or mixing another herbicide in the
mix. unless it was major mix up such as a bag of RR wheat it should not
be
an economic probelm the first year if it was just left alone It would use
mositure in the spots it still lived but unless they were thick they
wouldn't be an economic problem. Any number of cheimcals other than round
up
will kill wheat.

Be careful of the trade war that is on the verge of staring between the US
and EU. The recent expansion of the EU and the intoduction of the Euro
doesn't put you on the best economic footing. There are no winners in a
trade war but one side can loose a lot worse than the other.

The anti global stance seems to be driving the green movement will hurt the
EU worse than anyone else if it succeds.

I think the RR wheat that is kinda stuck in your pipeline would be
S.wheat, as you know we do not do that very much over here. It would
be a certain sales flop :-)

Speaking our W.wheat, Roundup has already found a huge niche in the
stubble field. RR W.wheat would seem a bit misplaced, it would mean
Roundup should shift to being used during the growth season when it
could act out to the utmost its potential for environmental damage to
non target plants and trees -- and that some other herbicide, maybe
not as benign would need to take it's place in the stubbles. Perhaps
not a very good idea.
================
One of the best things about Round Up is its safty to non target plants. I
treated the weeds in my front lawn using a foam brush wet with Round Up
wiping it on the weeds leaves and the undesiable grass that sticks up above
the Bremuda grass a week ago. For years we used Round up on ordary cotton
feilds using recurlaing sprayers that sprayed horoznaly above the cotton
into a catch bin or use a wipe on roap or tube that killed weeds that grew
above the cotton. Unfortunaly weeds have done a great deal of damgae by the
time they get this size if there are very many of them.

Most of those problems can be over come by using somtheing other than
round
up to kill the wheat except where you are trying to kill in in a RR crop.
In
cotton we could add several things that should kill wheat and not hurt
cotton.

I don't think RR wheat has the market RR cotton an beans have. It has a
market where cheat grass, wild oats and a few other weed that can't be
killed in wheat by today's herbicides. But the tech fee will limit it to
those situation. That is still a good market because there are a large
number of acres of wheat and cheat and wild oats are a big problems. But
2
or 3 years of RR wheat should clean up a cheat problem. I don't know how
long it takes to clean up wild oats. I never got it done.

I may be wrong at there be a bigger market than I think there is for RR
wheat. While I see it as necessary for no till wheat I don't see
necessary
every year as it is with row crops because you don't have the same kinds
of
weed problems. There are many less weed that herbicides can't sort out
between the crop and weed in wheat. In wheat you know what kind of
chronic
weed problems you are going to have and have 2-4-D to use for broad leaf
problems that crop up in the spring.

Well, 2,4-D is long banned over here, but there are of course other
options for broad leaf control. True, it would likely be the ease of
grass weed control, which might give some attraction to RR wheat.

I can see the problems with drift in the denser population of the EU. Its
ability to volatilize a day or two after it is applied and drift is a
problem when used around growing broad leaf plants. We have a May 1 cut off
date for using 2-4-D because of damage to cotton. The cause the rule was the
state highway department. You could find effects in cotton 5 miles from the
place they sprayed it. They spray a mix on a 110 f day and the vapor floated
for miles touching down here and there. It was light enough that it didn't
appear to cause much damage.

On Tue, 29 Apr 2003 23:16:03 -0500, "Gordon Couger"
wrote:


"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 29 Apr 2003 15:46:09 -0500, "Gordon Couger"
wrote:
"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message
Tillage Survey News Release 1995-1996, and still no RR beans in sight:
No-till soybean acres now account for 30 percent of all soybean acres
planted in the U.S."

That's a no till crop not no till farming on a long term basis over
a period of years

Right on! No till beans is a crop, not a farming system:

On Mon, 28 Apr 2003 00:34:05 -0500, "Gordon Couger":
Before RR cotton and beans there was no such thing as no till
cotton or beans.

Play all the word games you want.

Bwahahahahaha

"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 29 Apr 2003 23:16:03 -0500, "Gordon Couger"
wrote:


"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 29 Apr 2003 15:46:09 -0500, "Gordon Couger"
wrote:
"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message
Tillage Survey News Release 1995-1996, and still no RR beans in
sight:
No-till soybean acres now account for 30 percent of all soybean
acres
planted in the U.S."

That's a no till crop not no till farming on a long term basis over
a period of years

Right on! No till beans is a crop, not a farming system:

On Mon, 28 Apr 2003 00:34:05 -0500, "Gordon Couger":
Before RR cotton and beans there was no such thing as no till
cotton or beans.

Play all the word games you want.

Bwahahahahaha

How are your slugs doing?
Gordon

On Tue, 29 Apr 2003 06:24:39 -0500, "Gordon Couger"
wrote:
The no till crops except corn before RR ready crops could not
be kept on the same feilds over a number of years.

No-Till On The Plains 2001
Speakers Jim Kinsella
Jim operates a 850-acre farm which has been in a continuous no-till
corn/soybean system since 1977. He has snip

:-)

On Wed, 30 Apr 2003 02:10:20 -0500, "Gordon Couger"
wrote:


"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 29 Apr 2003 23:16:03 -0500, "Gordon Couger"
wrote:


"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 29 Apr 2003 15:46:09 -0500, "Gordon Couger"
wrote:
"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message
Tillage Survey News Release 1995-1996, and still no RR beans in
sight:
No-till soybean acres now account for 30 percent of all soybean
acres
planted in the U.S."

That's a no till crop not no till farming on a long term basis over
a period of years

Right on! No till beans is a crop, not a farming system:

On Mon, 28 Apr 2003 00:34:05 -0500, "Gordon Couger":
Before RR cotton and beans there was no such thing as no till
cotton or beans.

Play all the word games you want.

Bwahahahahaha

How are your slugs doing?

Bwahahahahaha

Can you say 'continuous no till'?

"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message
snip Torsnsins ranting
Bwahahahahaha

Can you say 'continuous no till'?

I am starting 90 acers of what we intend to be continuous no till cotton
That the wheat was killed early this wee with round up. and putting 60 some
acres of a alfalfa meadow that is past its productive life in to cotton as
well on my home place. Historically we have kept this place it 14 to 1/3
Alfalfa. No matter the out come I expect we will continue to do that.
Alfalfa is the number on cash crop on this farm. The land just need some
time between alfalfa crop to get rid of the diseases.

On my wife's place in west Texas they had a break down with the drilling rig
and are just now finishing up the testing of the 125 acers of drip so I
expect the farmer will elect to do reduced tillage and with the trenching
that has been done it will take a little more than what world be normally be
in notill cotton grown on drip irrigated land. This combination made 5 480#
bales to the acre in the area in many fields. His intention it to manage
this as no till cotton. Her other place is very short on water an I expect
he will dance with the one that bring him on that place until he has more
experience. Irrigation with limited water is tricky.

While many with pivot irrigated cotton were making 3 to 3.5 bales to the
acre. Drip won't do this much better every year because the weather was
perfect for drip. I need to study the soils there to see what the best
rotations are by they do well wiht long cotton rotatonions if they are
careful to replace what the use. Now with no till the can replace the one
thing than no crop that depended on tillage could do by replacing organic
matter at as slow rate that should start to show results in 5 years and
continue for at least ten more before reaching equilibrium.

In Oklahoma if the water quality is good enough on my home place I plan on
drill in two more wells and see ho much water we have. I currently have 175
Gallons per minute. 600 is consider the ideal to water 120 acres the amount
of ground you cover with a center pivot. I don't expect that much. If I can
get as much as 200 I have a number of options open. put in a center pivot
and water half cotton and half wheat. If I can get the wheat pay. A second
is half alfalfa and half cotton and shoot for three good cuttings a seed
crop and a final forth cutting. Using the low level of water to insure a
better crop every year or install drip in an area where I would be the first
one doing it. If I lived there I would be more likely to do it. But we are
20 years behind on irrigation technology from west Texas. I would rather
some one else introduce the technology to the area. Of course I have the
choice of leaving it alone and be satisfied with the 8 or 19% it pays on its
value every year and depreciation allowance starts all over again and
between all farms will eat up the taxes on 15 or 20 thousand dollars a year.

That's what we are doing for agriculture to reduce erosion, increase
production, better utilize water and increase income.

What are you doing to improve the state of agriculture. Are you raising your
organic garden so you can be sure you food is organic an not the commercial
stuff that was sorted out because of blemishes, marked organic and the
prices doubled and sold to organic wholesalers. Do you trust your organic
food in the store any more than any other company that gets food from all
over the world. They have far less inspections than conventional food. From
the folk that push organic food I wouldn't put anything past them.

Gordon Couger
Stillwater, OK
www.couger.com/gcouger

"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 29 Apr 2003 06:24:39 -0500, "Gordon Couger"
wrote:
The no till crops except corn before RR ready crops could not
be kept on the same feilds over a number of years.

No-Till On The Plains 2001
Speakers Jim Kinsella
Jim operates a 850-acre farm which has been in a continuous no-till
corn/soybean system since 1977. He has snip

How may fallow years did he have?

You made your point. They use the beans to get weed they can't get in corn.
I told you rotations of two crops have worked since the 60's.

I still never took of like it die when RR crops came a long because it made
it much simpler. You didn't have to learn to recognize a large number of
weed species or hire a scout to do it for you. The failures of these systems
were pretty bad as well. Many were plowed up.

Where you have two crops that are profitable that is an option. I west
Texas I am limited to the amount of water I have. It fits cotton and little
else that there is a market for there.

I know a feels that has been in continuous cotton for 75 year it's not a
good thing. But it was still making pretty decent cotton when the fellow the
rented it put it in alfalfa for 5 year and it really made hay and the cotton
was great after that as well.

You noticed the number of farmers that flocked to no till as soon a RR crops
were available.

On Wed, 30 Apr 2003 04:32:55 -0500, "Gordon Couger"
wrote:


"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message

Can you say 'continuous no till'?

I am starting 90 acers of what we intend to be continuous no till cotton

Ahhh. Good. I was beginning to think you couldn't. No, will you please
use that terminology, if you again want to pose as talking about it!

On Wed, 30 Apr 2003 04:45:23 -0500, "Gordon Couger"
wrote:
"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 29 Apr 2003 06:24:39 -0500, "Gordon Couger"
wrote:
The no till crops except corn before RR ready crops could not
be kept on the same feilds over a number of years.

No-Till On The Plains 2001
Speakers Jim Kinsella
Jim operates a 850-acre farm which has been in a continuous no-till
corn/soybean system since 1977. He has snip

How may fallow years did he have?

Bwahahahahaha

"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 30 Apr 2003 04:32:55 -0500, "Gordon Couger"
wrote:


"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message

Can you say 'continuous no till'?

I am starting 90 acers of what we intend to be continuous no till cotton

Ahhh. Good. I was beginning to think you couldn't. No, will you please
use that terminology, if you again want to pose as talking about it!

I laid out my crop plans for the year, What are your organic crop plans for
the year?

We had planed to have additional 125 acers of cotton in notill but delays in
in stalling the drip irrigation puts that off until next year. The plans in
Oklahoma rotate cotton and alfalfa and in Texas I am not sure of what he
uses for rotation out there. On the other place in west Texas that only of
150 gallons of water per hour when 600 is considered ideal the framer wants
to let others experiment on limited water and no Till and see how much water
we have to spare from the drip system for the system that is short on water
before deciding what to do there.

Gordon

On Wed, 30 Apr 2003 13:13:55 -0500, "Gordon Couger"
wrote:
"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 30 Apr 2003 04:32:55 -0500, "Gordon Couger"
wrote:

I am starting 90 acers of what we intend to be continuous no till cotton

Ahhh. Good.

I laid out my crop plans for the year

But, usually you do not talk much about yourself
and what you've been doing.

"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 30 Apr 2003 04:45:23 -0500, "Gordon Couger"
wrote:
"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 29 Apr 2003 06:24:39 -0500, "Gordon Couger"
wrote:
The no till crops except corn before RR ready crops could not
be kept on the same feilds over a number of years.

No-Till On The Plains 2001
Speakers Jim Kinsella
Jim operates a 850-acre farm which has been in a continuous no-till
corn/soybean system since 1977. He has snip

How may fallow years did he have?

Bwahahahahaha

torsten

grow up

you are just coming across as some sort of idiot child, at one point you
were worth discussing with,

Jim Webster

"Gordon Couger" wrote in message
news:3eae212a_3@newsfeed...



read it again and try and comprehend the reality, RR has allowed a 1 or
2
year rotation

now stop playing silly debating games for points and try to discuss
practical agriculture

Jim,

I am not talking about 1 or 2 year rotations but 5 or more years. We have
been doing continuous no till corn since the 70's. The first started
working
with it in the middle 60's.
Cotton and beans are sensitive to almost all over the top broad leaf weed
killers and there are weeds that preplant and preemergence weed killers
won't get. Before Round Up resistant crops you could only get away with no
till for a year or two before resistant weeds gave you a problem. Only
then
if you have a lot wetter weather then I do. Many of the post emergence
herbicides for cotton don't work very well unless the get some moisture on
them in a week after they are put on. If you were raising cotton on clay
soils where you have to rotate at least every three years because of Texas
Root Rot you could get away with it conventional chemicals with out too
bad
a weed problem because you have to rotate out for 2 or 3 years anyway. I
don't know how long that fungus lives in the soil but it was still there
on
place I farmed that hadn't had cotton on it in 20 years.

The mixes of herbicides used for no till before Round Up were persistent
in
the soil as well.


trouble is this is way past anything in his experience, because he is
restricted to what he reads. hell, even I sit back and listen when I get
practical people talking about dry land farming, something which is almost
incomprehensible to me :-))

I note that Oz has been keeping his ears open and obviously I can see some
of these techniques (probably not the actual irrigation) might come into
play in his circumstances

Jim Webster

"Gordon Couger" wrote in message
news:3eaee296_3@newsfeed...
I don't think RR wheat has the market RR cotton an beans have. It has a
market where cheat grass, wild oats and a few other weed that can't be
killed in wheat by today's herbicides. But the tech fee will limit it to
those situation. That is still a good market because there are a large
number of acres of wheat and cheat and wild oats are a big problems. But 2
or 3 years of RR wheat should clean up a cheat problem. I don't know how
long it takes to clean up wild oats. I never got it done.


I wonder if RR Wheat is actually aimed at a more european market? Oz is far
more up on weeds we have here, but wild oats can be a problem in some
places.
Jim Webster