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Old 26-04-2003, 01:23 PM
Jim Webster
 
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Michael Percy wrote in message
...
Oz wrote:

Remember humans are not stupid, they learn if they have to. At least

water
would not likely be a limiting factor. The trickyness of cropping when

you
have 90" rainfall pales to nothing compared to cropping when you have

only
below 10" rainfall to water your crop.


I suggest you try it. Personally I reckon it is easier to irrigate to
fetch water in than it is to drain and get it out.


--
Jim Webster

"The pasture of stupidity is unwholesome to mankind"

'Abd-ar-Rahman b. Muhammad b. Khaldun al-Hadrami'



Mike



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Old 26-04-2003, 01:23 PM
Jim Webster
 
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Michael Percy wrote in message
...
Jim Webster wrote:


Michael Percy wrote in message
...
Oz wrote:

Michael Percy writes
Oz wrote:

Michael Percy writes

Sub-humid.

What crops at what yield levels would you expect at this

rainfall?

What ruminant production (if any).


Oh, the usual stuff. Llamas and pot :-) Come on,
you told me it was somewhere in central/east England.

Not much of an answer, is it?
Can't you do better?

I can be less kind.


but hardly contribute less to the discussion


your 10" rainfed damn all grow system is hard to beat


only when taken out of context, remember that there are more ways to get
water to land than to sit on your butt waiting for rain


--
Jim Webster

"The pasture of stupidity is unwholesome to mankind"

'Abd-ar-Rahman b. Muhammad b. Khaldun al-Hadrami'


Mike



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Old 26-04-2003, 01:23 PM
Oz
 
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Phred writes

Jim
don't even need to by as high as 90 inches, add in the right (or wrong)
soil type and you have problems with cropping at 48", unless it falls at
just the right time. Over here on the west side of the UK a lot of land
has too much water for arable cropping.


Depends what you're trying to crop. Most of the north Queensland
sugarcane crop is grown at 80 to 120 inch rainfall


The idea of sugarcane growing in cumbria UK is altogether hilarious!

Good one!

--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.
Note: soon (maybe already) only posts via despammed.com will be accepted.

  #34   Report Post  
Old 26-04-2003, 01:23 PM
Oz
 
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Michael Percy writes
Oz wrote:

Michael Percy writes

Do a reality check with a rainfall map of earth. What you see, the
rainfall isosomethings in the range 0 to 20" closely capture the arid
parts of earth including the deserts. Don't ask me why it does, but it is
a fact. You can't get the same mileage from a transpiration rate map.


That's a rather huge range, to put it mildly, and puts parts of the UK
and europe under your designation of 'desert'. Equally parts of the
world I would describe as 'arid' do indeed have significantly more than
20" rainfall, particularly at low latitude with seasonal intense
rainfall.


Oh well, nothing is perfect. Now you remind me, your definition of
'arid' alternative one, are you still working on it?


Look back in the thread,

In the UK, for example, were I blessed with 10" rainfall evenly spread
through the year to roughly match transpiration I would be growing
massive crops with nary a worry in the world.

Could be quite a tourist attraction too


Not much of a reply, can't you do better?


Heh. Can't take a joke?


Still no answer, I note.

The restriction of cropping isn't confined to low rainfall areas either.


You don't say that. Really, or should I say that is also my impression.
However, there is a bloke here who says if you just got 10" of rain damm
all will grow. Could he be right, and we wrong?


You offered average yields in my area?
With the right timing of rainfall I would be producing similar yields
with a 10" rainfall (probably more) than with my 20" rainfall.

Many areas that have shallow soils but high rainfall cannot be cropped.
Take a look at the west of england, particularly wales northward, and
you will find the vast majority of the farmed area cannot be cropped but
is good stock country. It's rather tricky cropping when you have a 90"
rainfall.


Remember humans are not stupid, they learn if they have to. At least water
would not likely be a limiting factor. The trickyness of cropping when you
have 90" rainfall pales to nothing compared to cropping when you have only
below 10" rainfall to water your crop.


Not if you have 4" of acid soil over bedrock or a 20 degree slope.

--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.
Note: soon (maybe already) only posts via despammed.com will be accepted.

  #35   Report Post  
Old 26-04-2003, 01:23 PM
Oz
 
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Michael Percy writes
Oz wrote:

Michael Percy writes
Oz wrote:

Michael Percy writes

Sub-humid.

What crops at what yield levels would you expect at this rainfall?

What ruminant production (if any).


Oh, the usual stuff. Llamas and pot :-) Come on,
you told me it was somewhere in central/east England.


Not much of an answer, is it?
Can't you do better?


I can be less kind. Give it up.


Why? Don't you have any idea?

Tsk, tsk.

--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.
Note: soon (maybe already) only posts via despammed.com will be accepted.



  #36   Report Post  
Old 26-04-2003, 01:23 PM
Jim Webster
 
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Oz wrote in message
...
Phred writes

Depends what you're trying to crop. Most of the north Queensland
sugarcane crop is grown at 80 to 120 inch rainfall


The idea of sugarcane growing in cumbria UK is altogether hilarious!

Good one!


All I remember about sugar cane is learning as a kid that they used to
use fire to get rid of the various snakes etc living in it (when it was
all cut by hand). Your chances of getting any crop to burn in a cumbrian
autumn depend entirely on whether you were going to naphalm it or not.
No other option would come anywhere close. :-))


--
Jim Webster

"The pasture of stupidity is unwholesome to mankind"

'Abd-ar-Rahman b. Muhammad b. Khaldun al-Hadrami'



--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.
Note: soon (maybe already) only posts via despammed.com will be

accepted.



  #37   Report Post  
Old 26-04-2003, 01:23 PM
Oz
 
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Michael Percy writes

tell us where you practised your 10" rainfed damn grow all system


If you take the rainfall I have quite often had in summer and remember
that transpiration rates in winter here are very low, there you have it.

--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.
Note: soon (maybe already) only posts via despammed.com will be accepted.

  #38   Report Post  
Old 26-04-2003, 01:23 PM
Oz
 
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Michael Percy writes
Oz wrote:

Michael Percy writes
Oz wrote:

Michael Percy writes

Do a reality check with a rainfall map of earth. What you see, the
rainfall isosomethings in the range 0 to 20" closely capture the arid
parts of earth including the deserts. Don't ask me why it does, but it
is a fact. You can't get the same mileage from a transpiration rate map.

That's a rather huge range, to put it mildly, and puts parts of the UK
and europe under your designation of 'desert'. Equally parts of the
world I would describe as 'arid' do indeed have significantly more than
20" rainfall, particularly at low latitude with seasonal intense
rainfall.

Oh well, nothing is perfect. Now you remind me, your definition of
'arid' alternative one, are you still working on it?


Look back in the thread,


Not that one, the one you screwed up in message id


No answer I see.

In the UK, for example, were I blessed with 10" rainfall evenly spread
through the year to roughly match transpiration I would be growing
massive crops with nary a worry in the world.

Could be quite a tourist attraction too

Not much of a reply, can't you do better?

Heh. Can't take a joke?


Still no answer, I note.


Heh. There was also no question. Are you always this helpless?


Still no answer I see.

The restriction of cropping isn't confined to low rainfall areas either.

You don't say that. Really, or should I say that is also my impression.
However, there is a bloke here who says if you just got 10" of rain damm
all will grow. Could he be right, and we wrong?


You offered average yields in my area?
With the right timing of rainfall I would be producing similar yields
with a 10" rainfall (probably more) than with my 20" rainfall.


I doubt that. Let us see your water budget for that enterprise.


Easy. It's not unusual for me to have less than 10" summer rainfall.

--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.
Note: soon (maybe already) only posts via despammed.com will be accepted.

  #39   Report Post  
Old 26-04-2003, 01:23 PM
Oz
 
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Michael Percy writes
Oz wrote:

Michael Percy writes
Oz wrote:

Michael Percy writes
Oz wrote:

Michael Percy writes

Sub-humid.

What crops at what yield levels would you expect at this rainfall?

What ruminant production (if any).


Oh, the usual stuff. Llamas and pot :-) Come on,
you told me it was somewhere in central/east England.

Not much of an answer, is it?
Can't you do better?

I can be less kind. Give it up.


Why? Don't you have any idea?

Tsk, tsk.


Ok then don't give up, stand up for your questions instate.


OK so you admit you haven't a clue.

Your
questions assumes that the information 'water is available in possibly, but
not necessarily limiting amounts' is a predictor for which crops you
grow, the yields obtained, and your ruminant production.


In a dry year we will produce close to, sometimes slightly over, 4T/ac =
10T/Ha *providing* we get 1-2" a month (more like 1" each 3 weeks).
Rainfall august-october is irrelevant. 2" in october will pretty much
see us to spring, add another inch if you like.

Explain why you
think this is a reasonable assumption.


It's happened.

--
Oz
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  #40   Report Post  
Old 26-04-2003, 01:23 PM
Oz
 
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Michael Percy writes
Oz wrote:

Michael Percy writes

tell us where you practised your 10" rainfed damn grow all system


If you take the rainfall I have quite often had in summer and remember
that transpiration rates in winter here are very low, there you have it.


Let us see your water budget for that enterprise.


I am entirely rainfed. No irrigation whatsoever. This is normal in the
UK outside vegetable crops (and often not even then). Remember I am not
farming in a continental climate and I am about as far north as quebec.

Consequently no water budget, I just plants the seeds and let the lord
rain how he will.

--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.
Note: soon (maybe already) only posts via despammed.com will be accepted.



  #41   Report Post  
Old 26-04-2003, 01:23 PM
Oz
 
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Michael Percy writes
In a dry year we will produce close to, sometimes slightly over, 4T/ac =
10T/Ha *providing* we get 1-2" a month (more like 1" each 3 weeks).
Rainfall august-october is irrelevant. 2" in october will pretty much
see us to spring, add another inch if you like.

Explain why you
think this is a reasonable assumption.


It's happened.


Yes, you lost it. God, you are pathetic! What kind of idiot insist, and
insists, and insists again that questions be answered -- questions built on
assumptions the reasonability of which he can't or won't stand up for.


I simply asked you what yields you think I can get in years of sub 20"
rainfall.

You haven't a clue. Just say you haven't a clue.


--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.
Note: soon (maybe already) only posts via despammed.com will be accepted.

  #42   Report Post  
Old 26-04-2003, 01:23 PM
Jim Webster
 
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Michael Percy wrote in message
...
I doubt that. Let us see your water budget for that enterprise.


our water budget is simple

in, from rain, 5' of water

out, by drainage, run off, transpiration, evaporation and carry away in
the crop 5' of water.


--
Jim Webster

"The pasture of stupidity is unwholesome to mankind"

'Abd-ar-Rahman b. Muhammad b. Khaldun al-Hadrami'



  #43   Report Post  
Old 26-04-2003, 01:23 PM
Gordon Couger
 
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Webster"
Newsgroups: sci.agriculture
Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2002 7:16 AM
Subject: Vegans, facts, ranting, bigotry and other related subjects....


:
: Michael Percy wrote in message
: ...
: Jim Webster wrote:
:
: by your definition of arid damn all will grow anyway
:
: The definition I suggested was land with less than 10 inches
: avg. annual rainfall.
:
: and have been told that ten inches isn't arid, see Oz's post.
: Also rainfall doesn't define fertility, available water determines
: rainfall, the fertile cresent has a pretty low rainfall, as has the Nile
: valley.
:
Fog can be enough for forage for elephants and example is the Skeleton Coast
of Africa.

Rainfall, timeliness of rainfall temperature, altitude, latitude and local
modifying conditions all make enormous differences in arid areas.

Things are a lot more complicated in dry areas.

Goats can make a living on real slim pickings. Cattle are for the good
pasture. Goats are the true wonder animal for the poor in arid areas.

Gordon

Gordon Couger
Stillwater, OK
www.couger.com/gcouger


  #44   Report Post  
Old 26-04-2003, 01:23 PM
Gordon Couger
 
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Default Vegans, facts, ranting, bigotry and other related subjects....


"Michael Percy" wrote in message
...
Jim Webster wrote:


Michael Percy wrote in message
...
Oz wrote:

Remember humans are not stupid, they learn if they have to. At least

water
would not likely be a limiting factor. The trickyness of cropping when

you
have 90" rainfall pales to nothing compared to cropping when you have

only
below 10" rainfall to water your crop.


I suggest you try it. Personally I reckon it is easier to irrigate to
fetch water in than it is to drain and get it out.


tell us where you practised your 10" rainfed damn grow all system


I have farmed on years it didn't rain 10" and made a wheat crop on stored
moisture. In 15 to 20 inch rainfall areas they raise small grains using
summer fallow where you raise a crop every other year and keep it clean of
weed on the fallow year. It used to be pretty common in the Panhandle of
Oklahoma. It would make a decent (25 bushel 1950) with no fertile or
anything. At the time LPG cost 5 cents a gallon from the dealer or free at
the refinery so costs were low.

I would much rather try to make a living in agriculture in a 10 inch rain
fall area than 90 inch one. I can truck cattle to feed I can truck crops
where it is dry. My mothers family came to Texas in 1874 and are scattered
all over Texas an New Mexico in the 15 to 30 inch rainfall area raising
cattle and none of them are going broke. Going through my great grand
mothers papers we found one bank note for 200 dollars and my grandmother
said that was get her started on a homestead in New Mexico in 1904. It was
the only note in the papers. My mother's niece will be the 4th generation
just taking on the full management of the ranch she is 59. She and her
husband have been working with her dad for 30 years or so but no one retires
until then can get out take care of the cattle.

With Round Up ready wheat and the right kind of soil it would be possible to
raise no till wheat in 10 inch rain fall areas. The soil type would be all
importation it would need a heavy clay subsoil with 12 to 24 inches of good
soil above it so it acted as a bowl to store moisture. Just kill the sod
with chemicals and keep the weeds down and a dwarf wheat when you had enough
moisture to make a crop. Every 1, 2 or 3 years. You could get by a while
with out RR wheat but cheat grass would eat you up in short order.

It would be necessary that there be some rains when the wheat is maturing.
But if the rains come at the wrong time some other crop would do.

Building ponds an irrigating out of them is another option but you need a
steady supply of water. In this country to make money in the third world to
live.

I seriously doubt if it would be an economically viable way of farming.
First you have no infrastructure to market the wheat or for machinery
supply, parts and repair and a cow calf deal works pretty good.
--
Gordon

Gordon Couger
Stillwater, OK
www.couger.com/gcouger


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Old 26-04-2003, 01:23 PM
Gordon Couger
 
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"Michael Percy" wrote in message
...
Jim Webster wrote:
Michael Percy wrote in message


your 10" rainfed damn all grow system is hard to beat


only when taken out of context, remember that there are more ways to get
water to land than to sit on your butt waiting for rain


tell us more about your raindance assisted 10" rainfed damn all grow

system

Drilling wells and putting in drip irrigation works if you have water under
it.
--
Gordon

Couger
Stillwater, OK
www.couger.com/gcouger


 
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