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Old 26-04-2003, 01:23 PM
Gordon Couger
 
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On a real good year in 30 inch rainfall area that has hot temperatures while
the wheat matures we might do a little better than 3 metric tons per
hectare.
--
Gordon

Gordon Couger
Stillwater, OK
www.couger.com/gcouger
"Oz" wrote in message
...
Michael Percy writes
Oz wrote:

Michael Percy writes
Oz wrote:

Michael Percy writes
Oz wrote:

Michael Percy writes

Sub-humid.

What crops at what yield levels would you expect at this rainfall?

What ruminant production (if any).


Oh, the usual stuff. Llamas and pot :-) Come on,
you told me it was somewhere in central/east England.

Not much of an answer, is it?
Can't you do better?

I can be less kind. Give it up.

Why? Don't you have any idea?

Tsk, tsk.


Ok then don't give up, stand up for your questions instate.


OK so you admit you haven't a clue.

Your
questions assumes that the information 'water is available in possibly,

but
not necessarily limiting amounts' is a predictor for which crops you
grow, the yields obtained, and your ruminant production.


In a dry year we will produce close to, sometimes slightly over, 4T/ac =
10T/Ha *providing* we get 1-2" a month (more like 1" each 3 weeks).
Rainfall august-october is irrelevant. 2" in october will pretty much
see us to spring, add another inch if you like.

Explain why you
think this is a reasonable assumption.


It's happened.

--
Oz
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Old 26-04-2003, 01:23 PM
Oz
 
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Gordon Couger writes

On a real good year in 30 inch rainfall area that has hot temperatures while
the wheat matures we might do a little better than 3 metric tons per
hectare.


gulp

Breakeven for the UK would be somewhere in excess of 8T/Ha and for some
over 9T/Ha.

Due to the very high overheads deintensification is not an option since
the total growing cost is between 1/4 and 1/2 of total costs.

--
Oz
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Old 26-04-2003, 01:23 PM
Oz
 
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Michael Percy writes
Oz wrote:

Michael Percy writes


Yes, you lost it. God, you are pathetic! What kind of idiot insist, and
insists, and insists again that questions be answered -- questions built
on
assumptions the reasonability of which he can't or won't stand up for.


I simply asked you what yields you think I can get in years of sub 20"
rainfall.


Not quite, but what's the difference. How the **** should I know from your
annual rainfall what yields you get!


Because that's what we are discussing of course, and you claim to be
expert.

I am pointing out that rainfall is only half the equation, transpiration
losses are the other half and on top of that is stress (ie death) due to
insufficient water even if *annually* you might appear to have enough.

Not far away I have neighbours on sand over gravel that suffer severe
yield losses every year despite having significantly higher rainfall
(circa 35-40").

--
Oz
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Old 26-04-2003, 01:23 PM
Oz
 
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Michael Percy writes

That's all very fine, but we have you here proclaiming that 10" rainfall at
that sight is sufficient to make massive yields


Not really massive. Typical UK yields for the better farmer on average
to good land. There are plenty of people in the UK with lower rainfall
than me who regularly do better than I do.

with never a worry. We are
dying to see your water budget!


Are you slow on the uptake or something?
Being rainfed I do no budget, never have.


--
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Old 26-04-2003, 01:23 PM
Oz
 
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Michael Percy writes

farming with 10" of water looks easy when your plow is a keyboard and you're
a thousand miles and 5' rainfall away from the aridlands


Actually jim is only a few hundred miles away from me. He has bought
some of my cattle in the past. In fact I would expect within 50 miles of
him, on the rainshadow of the lake district, there will be arable
farmers with similar rainfall to me (probably lower) and very similar
yields.

Also note I specified 10" when *I* wanted it (not when the good lord
deems I should have some).

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Old 26-04-2003, 01:23 PM
Jim Webster
 
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Michael Percy wrote in message
...
Jim Webster wrote:

which if you could overcome your ability to read you will see that

is
what I wrote


Heh.


as I said, you seem to have problems with basic english language
comprehension. I could always use shorter words if it would help.


--
Jim Webster

"The pasture of stupidity is unwholesome to mankind"

'Abd-ar-Rahman b. Muhammad b. Khaldun al-Hadrami'


Mike




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Old 26-04-2003, 01:23 PM
Oz
 
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Michael Percy writes
Oz wrote:
Being rainfed I do no budget, never have.


However, since claiming that 10" rainfall is sufficient to make massive
yields, now in need to do one. Tze water budget, please can we see it?


Do try not to be a pratt all your life.

It's quite clear already that you don;t have a clue what you are talking
about.

--
Oz
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Old 26-04-2003, 01:23 PM
Oz
 
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Michael Percy writes
Oz wrote:

Also note I specified 10" when *I* wanted it (not when the good lord
deems I should have some).


Yup! That's the one! Tze water budget, please...


1" when I have a 1" water deficit.

Typically every three weeks in summer.

--
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Old 26-04-2003, 01:23 PM
Oz
 
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Michael Percy writes

I don't, you are just making that up, but what's the difference? How the
**** should ANYONE know from the rainfall being 20", what crops are grown,
the yields, and the ruminant production!


You are claiming that you can, just by looking at the annual
precipitation maps in your atlas.

--
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Old 26-04-2003, 01:23 PM
Oz
 
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Michael Percy writes
Oz wrote:

Michael Percy writes
Oz wrote:

Also note I specified 10" when *I* wanted it (not when the good lord
deems I should have some).

Yup! That's the one! Tze water budget, please...


1" when I have a 1" water deficit.
Typically every three weeks in the summer.


Typical of what, summer 'as you know it', or the budget case?

(Sorry, I didn't meant to interrupt, but you were just about to make an
estimate of the rainfall demands in the summer period. Do go on.)


You are stunningly stupid.

What is the point of estimating water demands for rainfed agriculture?
There isn't.
I know nobody in the UK that does it.

So there *are* no water demand figures for cereals in the UK (and I
doubt even on the continent).

Please try and use your brain cell, it's not very hard.

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Old 26-04-2003, 01:23 PM
Oz
 
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Michael Percy writes

Noone has said anything about water demands. However, the specification is
rainfall when *you* demand it, (=rainfall demands) -- further specified as
1" rainfall when you have a 1" deficit. We understand that to mean you want
precipitation to track water loss closely. You estimate this will result
in a demand of 1" rainfall every three weeks in the summer, **typically**.


Indeed.
Strangely it depends how hot it is, hence the 'typically'.

Typical of what, summer 'as you know it', or the budget case?


Typical of a UK summer with normal variability, of course.

(The budget case would seem to attempt to utilize potential
evapotranspiration during summer to the fullest. In summer 'as you know
it', you are rainfed -- outside your control -- and you can't be utilizing
the potential evapotranspiration fully.)


Actually we normally run a deficit from about may/june until harvest.
Fortunately it's rarely more than 2" but when it's greater some of my
soiltypes start to suffer. Get to 4" deficit or so and yields start to
drop rather alarmingly if it's hot at the same time.

Most of my rainfall comes in winter, and heads northseawards having
passed through my field drains.

(Again, I didn't mean to interrupt, but you were just about to make an
estimate of the rainfall demands which would be necessary to balance the
evapotranspiration loss in the summer period. Do go on.)


Eh? Circa 7" would do. I've had reasonable yields with less, and
significant drought loss with more.

--
Oz
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Old 26-04-2003, 01:23 PM
Oz
 
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Michael Percy writes
Oz wrote:

Michael Percy writes


Typical of what, summer 'as you know it', or the budget case?


Typical of a UK summer with normal variability, of course.


OK. I suspected that. Then those deficits are not realistic for your budget
case.


Que? I am not assuming a significant deficit (1", because that's better
for crop growth) , that's why I left 3" spare.

Actually we normally run a deficit from about may/june until harvest.
Fortunately it's rarely more than 2" but when it's greater some of my
soiltypes start to suffer. Get to 4" deficit or so and yields start to
drop rather alarmingly if it's hot at the same time.


That's it. The soil is normally in water deficit to a degree during your
summer, and the evapotranspiration suffers.


It's pretty well always between 1" and 2" deficit.
That's what happens if you have six weeks without rain.

In the budget case you have
changed that. Thinking you have enough water, and whenever you demand it,
you settle out to boost the evapotranspiration to the utmost.


Hardly, that wouldn;t give best yields.
A deficit of about 1" (maybe rather more in late spring) is better.

Most of my rainfall comes in winter, and heads northseawards having
passed through my field drains.


That will change very much in the budget case.


Obviously. There is no requirement for a surplus rainfall wt 10".

Eh? Circa 7" would do. I've had reasonable yields with less, and
significant drought loss with more.


Evapotranspiration losses cannot be limited to 7" during a summer typical
for UKs temperature and wind profile, while meeting the specification:
1" rain when you have 1" deficit.


So you say, I would beg to differ.

Mind you, anyone who says 'the UK temperature and wind profile' doesn't
know much about the UK.

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Old 26-04-2003, 01:23 PM
Michael Percy
 
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Oz wrote:

Michael Percy writes
Oz wrote:

Michael Percy writes


Typical of what, summer 'as you know it', or the budget case?

Typical of a UK summer with normal variability, of course.


OK. I suspected that. Then those deficits are not realistic for your
budget case.


Que?


Because you are changing deficit management, causing change of actual
evapotranspiration.

I am not assuming a significant deficit (1", because that's better
for crop growth) , that's why I left 3" spare.


Actually we normally run a deficit from about may/june until harvest.
Fortunately it's rarely more than 2" but when it's greater some of my
soiltypes start to suffer. Get to 4" deficit or so and yields start to
drop rather alarmingly if it's hot at the same time.


That's it. The soil is normally in water deficit to a degree during your
summer, and the evapotranspiration suffers.


It's pretty well always between 1" and 2" deficit.
That's what happens if you have six weeks without rain.


Your intial specification for the budget case is 0-1".

In the budget case you have
changed that. Thinking you have enough water, and whenever you demand it,
you settle out to boost the evapotranspiration to the utmost.


Hardly, that wouldn;t give best yields.


You command the rain, you decide.

A deficit of about 1" (maybe rather more in late spring) is better.


Specification 1"rain when deficit is 1.5" replaces
specification 1" rain when deficit is 1".

Most of my rainfall comes in winter, and heads northseawards having
passed through my field drains.


That will change very much in the budget case.


Obviously. There is no requirement for a surplus rainfall wt 10".

Eh? Circa 7" would do. I've had reasonable yields with less, and
significant drought loss with more.


Evapotranspiration losses cannot be limited to 7" during a summer typical
for UKs temperature and wind profile, while meeting the specification:
1" rain when you have 1" deficit.


So you say, I would beg to differ.


Evapotranspiration losses can also not be limited to 7" while meeting the
specification: 1" rain when you have 1.5" deficit. We have made you aware
of the problem. It is not a matter of opinion.

Mind you, anyone who says 'the UK temperature and wind profile' doesn't
know much about the UK.


I set your location to east anglia from the consideration that the climate
of the british Isles and european mainland would then need to be perturbed
the least. If you are interested i a swap, we have a well developed sight
in China with your preferred 10" rainfall in the summer, as specified. The
land is currently laid out in shrub and semi desert.

Mike
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Old 26-04-2003, 01:23 PM
Jim Webster
 
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Oz wrote in message

Evapotranspiration losses cannot be limited to 7" during a summer

typical
for UKs temperature and wind profile, while meeting the

specification:
1" rain when you have 1" deficit.


So you say, I would beg to differ.

Mind you, anyone who says 'the UK temperature and wind profile'

doesn't
know much about the UK.


I think that he is having trouble getting his head round the fact that
the temperature/rainfall/wind profile can be significantly different in
places twenty miles apart.
As I said, rainfall increases by one inch a mile as you travel west
along one road round here.

--
Jim Webster

"The pasture of stupidity is unwholesome to mankind"

'Abd-ar-Rahman b. Muhammad b. Khaldun al-Hadrami'




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Old 26-04-2003, 01:23 PM
Oz
 
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Michael Percy writes

Evapotranspiration losses can also not be limited to 7" while meeting the
specification: 1" rain when you have 1.5" deficit. We have made you aware
of the problem. It is not a matter of opinion.


Unfortunately, as a scientist I believe that experiment is king.
It's happened here more than once.

Mind you, anyone who says 'the UK temperature and wind profile' doesn't
know much about the UK.


I set your location to east anglia from the consideration that the climate
of the british Isles and european mainland would then need to be perturbed
the least. If you are interested i a swap, we have a well developed sight
in China with your preferred 10" rainfall in the summer, as specified. The
land is currently laid out in shrub and semi desert.


At what latitude, what average air humidity, and what air temperature
(year round) compared to Eastern england?

I at no time suggested that 10" wasn't marginal for rainfall even here,
what I was trying to point out to you was that available biomass is very
much more complex than just looking at rainfall. Rainfall alone is a
poor guide in itself.

--
Oz
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