wrote in message
...


Jim Webster wrote:

wrote in message
...
A Fiat shares a lot of physical characteristics with a Lamborgini.
You don't care, I say that there is some difference.
Humans share lots of genes with the mouse. We share ~99% of the
genes.
However, religious and ethical believes of many people might tell
them that is not the same to eat rat, pig, human or chicken.

ethics are not necessarily rational, and often have no relationship
to
the real world.

In the real world people eat human meat?

have done since since we came down from the trees in one part of the
world or another. Read any account of the siege of Leningrad.

Enron, Global Crossing, et al are a rational way to make business?
Child abuse by priests is the way to go in the real world?


exactly, I think priests should be banned from making decisions on plant
science.

I think one thing is people not behaving ethically, another is to make
unethical behavior the accepted norm.

so you believe that women have no souls and are therefore not people,
because that is the ethical norm in some places.


--
Jim Webster

"The pasture of stupidity is unwholesome to mankind"

'Abd-ar-Rahman b. Muhammad b. Khaldun al-Hadrami'

wrote in message
...


Jim Webster wrote:

wrote in message
...
Spain does not export oil to America. Today it's coasts are
covered
with oil.
Who would have thought!
I know about shuch things as continents but corn travels in ships.


and how well does maize survive immersion in salt water?

think a little


The original point was that corn can travel over oceans with no
problem,
does so regularly. Pollen viability is a small problem compared to
whole shipments of grain from USA to Africa or USA to SouthAmerica.
(Mexican germplasm of maize has already been contaminated with GMO's,
and it was not a cloud of pollen but a shipment of USA 'AID'.
Other sources of germplasm contamination include regular exchanges
between plant breeding programs around the world.
Accidents happen. They happen regularly. GMO's containing
pharmaceutical have been mixed with grain destined for human
consumption.
This was reported because of luck. Other accidents have probably not
been reported. Other large scale experiments with humans like those of
mad cow disease in England where denied for years until people started
to suspect something wrong. Before people just died from an unknown
disease.
Some of you where arguing that the problem of GMO's are a question of
doing
good control and regulation. Well, tell that to the spaniards and
their
oiled coasts or tell that to the English and their mad cows, pigs and
sheep.
Some problems are much cheaper and easier to fix at the source, not
down the
line. That is a basic science and engineering principle.
Now, go ahead take your own advise. Think a little.

don't ever get in a car

don't ever cross a road



--
Jim Webster

"The pasture of stupidity is unwholesome to mankind"

'Abd-ar-Rahman b. Muhammad b. Khaldun al-Hadrami'

writes

If there is the strong posibility that the pig organ might carry viruses
that are going to jump the species barrier and infect the human race,

1) People have been living with pigs for millennia.
2) Those doing the work are well aware of the potential problems and
taking the required precautions.

and
in exchange I can get a few months of the worse quality of life, what do
you think I can do for my kids? Don't forget, we all die. Learn to live
with that!

Don;t be a prat.
So, like, you refuse vaccines made from animals, I don;t think so.

--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.
Note: soon (maybe already) only posts via despammed.com will be accepted.

Jim Webster wrote:
....
exactly, I think priests should be banned from making decisions on plant
science.


Leave those decisions to the CEO's of Monsanto, IDM and Cargil?

Oz wrote:

writes

If there is the strong posibility that the pig organ might carry viruses
that are going to jump the species barrier and infect the human race,

1) People have been living with pigs for millennia.

Living with pigs is one thing, transplanting their organs
is another.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...ks/howbig.html
....

Walid Heneine, PhD. Centers For Disease Control
Does giving the pig organ human genes increase the risk of pig
viruses evolving to infect us?
It's an open question.
....

Jonathan S. Allan, D.V.M.
Department Of Virology And Immunology, Southwest Foundation For Biomedical Research
The question really is "viruses," not "virus." When you think about the kinds of
viruses that could be present in one species that could jump into humans, you
have to think about a whole class of viruses or a whole family of viruses, not
just one virus.
....
But there may be many other viruses that are present --
that we don't have a handle on -- that could also be transmitted to humans,
and that could potentially be even a larger problem. . .
The viruses you worry about in the transplant setting are blood-borne diseases
or sexually transmitted types of diseases. People argue that we've been in
contact with pigs for hundreds of thousands of years; we slaughter them every
day; we live next to them every day; so, they argue, if pigs had anything that
could be nasty for us, we would have already gotten it. And the answer to
that is, "Yes, the ones that we could easily get from them. But in a transplant
setting, you may be dealing with viruses that don't normally have access to
humans, ones that are blood-borne, ones that are sexually transmitted." In the
transplant setting, you provide the most ideal environment by introducing a
virus with the organ, overcoming all natural barriers, immunosuppressing the
heck out of them. So you're creating the most ideal situation for a virus
to arise.
....
Hugh Auchincloss, jr M.D.
FDA Subcommittee on Xenotransplantation
One quality that viruses have is the ability to change; they can mutate.
They can also lay dormant for long periods of time. Do these qualities
of the virus give you any comfort, as it were?

I don't think they give me comfort. Could the current pig endogenous
retrovirus, the sequence that defines that virus, change to turn it
into a more virulent or different kind of virus? The answer is yes,
it could.
....
Daniel R Salmon M.D.
Virologist, Scripps Research Institute
What we know about the family of viruses that are closely related to
the virus in the pig that we're concerned about is that they all
produce lymphomas and leukemias. These are cancers of the blood system

What do we know so far about these pig viruses? How active and aggressive
do they seem to be?

What we know about these pig viruses today is that, first of all, they do
infect human cells. Secondly, under certain circumstances, they can
actively infect human cells. In other words, they can infect a human
cell initially, replicate themselves, and spread to other human cells.
So that's part of why there's a real concern.
....


__________________________________________________ _________
Although people living with pigs and ducks in asia is
assumed to be the cause of genetic recombination and the creation of
new races of influenza virus.

http://www.niaid.nih.gov/newsroom/fo...background.htm
....
Where Influenza Comes From
In nature, the flu virus can often be found in wild aquatic birds such as
ducks and shore birds. The virus has persisted in these birds for millions
of years, scientists believe, and does them no harm. But because the virus
is always mutating in ways that allow it to infect the cells of a different
species, it can jump from wild aquatic birds to other birds. Usually, the
virus spreads to domestic ducks, and from there moves on to either pigs or
chickens before infecting humans. Pigs facilitate transition of the virus
from ducks to humans because pig cells have both the receptor molecules on
their surfaces used by viruses that infect birds and also the receptors
used by viruses that infect humans. So a pig could pick up the influenza
virus from a bird, and that virus could mutate in the pig into a form
infectious to humans. Recently, the virus has jumped from chickens to
humans, and scientists speculate that chickens may also have the receptor
used by human-type viruses. When a brand new viral strain reaches humans,
individuals don't have immunity and the virus can spread quickly
around the globe. This is called a flu pandemic. Pandemics can also be
triggered by the reemergence of a viral strain that has not circulated
for many years. Epidemics are more localized outbreaks, usually occurring
yearly, caused by variants of already circulating strains.
....

2) Those doing the work are well aware of the potential problems and
taking the required precautions.


One thing is good people finding out potential problems, another is
politicians, businessmen and imbecils in control of the precautions
or thinking that someone else is taking all the precautions for you.
Talidomide, Mad cow disease! Aids in the blood supply, remember?
Is only when the dead start to pile up that the economic interests
have a second look at the liabilities!

writes


Gordon Couger wrote:

...
There is a speculation that a virus being replicated in the pigs cells could
jump to human cells and create a new disease. But we have been using the
valves from pigs hearts for years with no problems.


http://www.biotechanalytics.com/Topi..._main_text.htm
...
tissue transplantation is on a different scale from organ transplantation,
and so any virus or prion disease may be transferred in a greater dose in
a whole organ transplant.

So? The trick is to get them virus-free in the first place.

Mind you, you should be a LOT more worried about transplants from
humans. These people have not been carefully bred, maintained in a
disease-free environment and regularly checked, but are known to carry a
host of human diseases.

Xenotransplantation of live tissue is clearly a high risk area which needs
careful consideration. Some eminent virologists remain to be convinced of its
safety. Robin Weiss of the Institute of Cancer Research, London, issues a note
of caution when he states that "the ethical and technical problems of
maintaining vigilance over Xenotransplantation should not be underestimated."
...

Of course the same applies to human-human transplantation but more so.
It IS being carried out, isn't it?

Don;t even THINK about 100 years of blood transfusions ....

--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.
Note: soon (maybe already) only posts via despammed.com will be accepted.

writes
Oz wrote:

writes

If there is the strong posibility that the pig organ might carry viruses
that are going to jump the species barrier and infect the human race,

1) People have been living with pigs for millennia.

Living with pigs is one thing, transplanting their organs
is another.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...ks/howbig.html
...

Walid Heneine, PhD. Centers For Disease Control
Does giving the pig organ human genes increase the risk of pig
viruses evolving to infect us?
It's an open question.

It's an open question, quite.

However humans have a whole bunch of viruses specifically designed to
attack humans ....

--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.
Note: soon (maybe already) only posts via despammed.com will be accepted.

wrote in message
...

"the ethical and technical problems of
maintaining vigilance over Xenotransplantation should not be
underestimated."
...

the english translation of that is "so funding will have to increase"


--
Jim Webster

"The pasture of stupidity is unwholesome to mankind"

'Abd-ar-Rahman b. Muhammad b. Khaldun al-Hadrami'

wrote in message
...


Jim Webster wrote:
...
exactly, I think priests should be banned from making decisions on
plant
science.


Leave those decisions to the CEO's of Monsanto, IDM and Cargil?

If you insist, but I wouldn't advise it.

I'd let these matters be decided by self appointed experts on the usenet


--
Jim Webster

"The pasture of stupidity is unwholesome to mankind"

'Abd-ar-Rahman b. Muhammad b. Khaldun al-Hadrami'

Jim Webster writes

wrote in message
...

"the ethical and technical problems of
maintaining vigilance over Xenotransplantation should not be
underestimated."
...

the english translation of that is "so funding will have to increase"

:-)

--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.
Note: soon (maybe already) only posts via despammed.com will be accepted.

Oz wrote:
...
tissue transplantation is on a different scale from organ transplantation,
and so any virus or prion disease may be transferred in a greater dose in
a whole organ transplant.

So? The trick is to get them virus-free in the first place.

Mind you, you should be a LOT more worried about transplants from
humans. These people have not been carefully bred, maintained in a
disease-free environment and regularly checked, but are known to carry a
host of human diseases.


The patient with the transplant is the only ones that suffers
or dies when transplanted with a sick human organ.
In the case of animal transplantation into humans, a few pigs are
multiplied in an industrial setting to suit thousands of patients.
The risks grow exponentially.


Xenotransplantation of live tissue is clearly a high risk area which needs
careful consideration. Some eminent virologists remain to be convinced of its
safety. Robin Weiss of the Institute of Cancer Research, London, issues a note
of caution when he states that "the ethical and technical problems of
maintaining vigilance over Xenotransplantation should not be underestimated."
...

Of course the same applies to human-human transplantation but more so.
It IS being carried out, isn't it?

Don;t even THINK about 100 years of blood transfusions ....

If it had been possible to produce human blood in pigs, say 20 years
ago, think about the additional damage that a then unknown HIV virus
would have caused to humanity.


--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.
Note: soon (maybe already) only posts via despammed.com will be accepted.

Oz wrote:

writes
Oz wrote:

writes

If there is the strong posibility that the pig organ might carry viruses
that are going to jump the species barrier and infect the human race,

1) People have been living with pigs for millennia.

Living with pigs is one thing, transplanting their organs
is another.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...ks/howbig.html
...

Walid Heneine, PhD. Centers For Disease Control
Does giving the pig organ human genes increase the risk of pig
viruses evolving to infect us?
It's an open question.

It's an open question, quite.


An open question, like having a revolver with one bullet and while
playing russian roulette, asking the question: 'is this one going
to kill me? ' with the difference that you are playing with
other people's lifes and making money in the process.


However humans have a whole bunch of viruses specifically designed to
attack humans ....

--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.
Note: soon (maybe already) only posts via despammed.com will be accepted.

Jim Webster wrote:

wrote in message
...

"the ethical and technical problems of
maintaining vigilance over Xenotransplantation should not be
underestimated."
...

the english translation of that is "so funding will have to increase"


My translation is : "don't be a fool, you are going to get burned, even
with the best vigilance"


--
Jim Webster

"The pasture of stupidity is unwholesome to mankind"

'Abd-ar-Rahman b. Muhammad b. Khaldun al-Hadrami'

Jim Webster wrote:

wrote in message
...


Jim Webster wrote:
...
exactly, I think priests should be banned from making decisions on
plant
science.


Leave those decisions to the CEO's of Monsanto, IDM and Cargil?

If you insist, but I wouldn't advise it.

I'd let these matters be decided by self appointed experts on the usenet


And that would be you?


--
Jim Webster

"The pasture of stupidity is unwholesome to mankind"

'Abd-ar-Rahman b. Muhammad b. Khaldun al-Hadrami'

wrote in message
...


Jim Webster wrote:

wrote in message
...

"the ethical and technical problems of
maintaining vigilance over Xenotransplantation should not be
underestimated."
...

the english translation of that is "so funding will have to
increase"


My translation is : "don't be a fool, you are going to get burned,
even
with the best vigilance"

having seen the shroud wavers every year when grants are set I beg to
differ.

World health organisation back in 1989.

"There will be 1 million AIDS cases in Britian by the end of 1991"

by 1994 there had been 9000 cases

Same with BSE, we were promised millions dead before the turn of the
century, we have barely lost much more than a hundred.

But my god a lot of people have made good solid careers on the back of
these stories.
--
Jim Webster

"The pasture of stupidity is unwholesome to mankind"

'Abd-ar-Rahman b. Muhammad b. Khaldun al-Hadrami'



--
Jim Webster

"The pasture of stupidity is unwholesome to mankind"

'Abd-ar-Rahman b. Muhammad b. Khaldun al-Hadrami'