Not sure if this is the right place for this question. If you know of
a better place for it, please do tell me.

The Question: I assume that when a certain site is used for a long
time as a vineyard, there will be some typical changes in ground
chemistry due to leeching of deposition effects of the plants. Some
might also come from fungicide treatments, or similar. What might
these typical 'signatures' be? If I'm trying to find out if wine was
planted on a field sometime in the last 100 years or so, what would I
look for?

Any literature references are greatly welcome.

On 30 May 2003 01:25:36 -0700, (Control) wrote:

Not sure if this is the right place for this question. If you know of
a better place for it, please do tell me.

The Question: I assume that when a certain site is used for a long
time as a vineyard, there will be some typical changes in ground
chemistry due to leeching of deposition effects of the plants. Some
might also come from fungicide treatments, or similar. What might
these typical 'signatures' be?

Typically, if the soil has been used for a number of years for
growing of wine, there would be an elevated copper content
signature in the soil.

If I'm trying to find out if wine was
planted on a field sometime in the last 100 years or so, what would I
look for?

If planted for just a few years, maybe 100 years ago, I think there
is probably very little to find of physical evidence in the soil
chemistry that it ever happened. Without records it could be an
unknowable.

Any literature references are greatly welcome.

Re copper in vineyard soil, you might like to contact
Remi Chaussod at INRA in France.

Thanks for the Info, I'll definately follow the contact you gave.

Just a question to the copper. I would have thought that the copper
comes from the fungicides used to fight mildew. Wouldn't this be quite
a recent effect, or did people use copper before say 1800? The
situation is question is the following: The area around a small
village is found to have been known for wine exports during the 1700s
and 1800s, and maybe even later. Today however, there are only a few
small vineyards in the area. There are lots of possible sites, as the
area is rather hilly. I was wondering if there's any way to detect
where those old vineyards were.

If my assumption regarding the copper is true, is there any ground
chemistry changes produced by the vines themselves?

On 30 May 2003 07:41:11 -0700, (Control) wrote:

Thanks for the Info, I'll definately follow the contact you gave.

Just a question to the copper. I would have thought that the copper
comes from the fungicides used to fight mildew. Wouldn't this be quite
a recent effect, or did people use copper before say 1800?

Nah. It is a more recent invention, from about 1890.

The
situation is question is the following: The area around a small
village is found to have been known for wine exports during the 1700s
and 1800s, and maybe even later. Today however, there are only a few
small vineyards in the area. There are lots of possible sites, as the
area is rather hilly. I was wondering if there's any way to detect
where those old vineyards were.

If my assumption regarding the copper is true, is there any ground
chemistry changes produced by the vines themselves?

No unique strongly indicative changes that I am aware of, and not at
all persistent over that timeframe. Records kept from the known wine
production/export businesses might be more promising than looking into
soil chemistry.

Control writes
Thanks for the Info, I'll definately follow the contact you gave.

Just a question to the copper. I would have thought that the copper
comes from the fungicides used to fight mildew. Wouldn't this be quite
a recent effect, or did people use copper before say 1800?

I think the use of copper as a fungicide is quite old. Probably not pre
1800, but torsten will correct me if not.

If you worry about copper consider a level of say 20ppm (a level I would
kill to have here). Take the top 200mm (0.2Ha) then 1Ha contains 2000
cubic metres weighting perhaps 4000T so 20ppm would be 80kg copper. I
would guess a copper-lime fungicide would contain some 10% copper and be
applied at a few kg/Ha, maybe 10. That's some 1kg/annum so 20ppm would
be some 80 years of use. I have a memory that 40ppm is still fine, but
take advice.

Anyway, it's easy to test for copper in the soil.

If my assumption regarding the copper is true, is there any ground
chemistry changes produced by the vines themselves?

Probably, but not anything I, personally, would give any concern about
whatsoever.

--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.
Note: soon (maybe already) only posts via despammed.com will be accepted.

If my assumption regarding the copper is true, is there any ground
chemistry changes produced by the vines themselves?

Probably, but not anything I, personally, would give any concern about
whatsoever.

Ooops, I think you misunderstood me. I'm not concerned about ground
quality changes or anything like that, I'm looking for a method to
detect old (several centuries) locations of vineyards. If copper was
used as a fungicide before 1800, then copper concentration
measurements might be worth a try.

Does anyone know if copper-lime fungicides are used for other crops
than for wine? Anything I might have to consider mistaking for old
vineyards (planted on south facing hillsides, treated with copper)?

Control writes

Ooops, I think you misunderstood me. I'm not concerned about ground
quality changes or anything like that, I'm looking for a method to
detect old (several centuries) locations of vineyards. If copper was
used as a fungicide before 1800, then copper concentration
measurements might be worth a try.

Apparently not, according to torsten.

Does anyone know if copper-lime fungicides are used for other crops
than for wine? Anything I might have to consider mistaking for old
vineyards (planted on south facing hillsides, treated with copper)?

Potatoes, but you don't find them on dry south facing slopes.

Judging by archaeological programs in the UK, you might be able to
detect the rows of posts and probably deep vinous root remains with soil
conductivity or ground radar. You would be looking for rows at vinyard
spacing.

They may even be visible at the right time of year and the right season,
by crop colour changes where there is a little more moisture where an
old root was.

--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.
Note: soon (maybe already) only posts via despammed.com will be accepted.

"Oz" wrote in message
...
Control writes

Ooops, I think you misunderstood me. I'm not concerned about ground
quality changes or anything like that, I'm looking for a method to
detect old (several centuries) locations of vineyards. If copper was
used as a fungicide before 1800, then copper concentration
measurements might be worth a try.

Apparently not, according to torsten.

Does anyone know if copper-lime fungicides are used for other crops
than for wine? Anything I might have to consider mistaking for old
vineyards (planted on south facing hillsides, treated with copper)?

Potatoes, but you don't find them on dry south facing slopes.

Judging by archaeological programs in the UK, you might be able to
detect the rows of posts and probably deep vinous root remains with soil
conductivity or ground radar. You would be looking for rows at vinyard
spacing.

They may even be visible at the right time of year and the right season,
by crop colour changes where there is a little more moisture where an
old root was.

If you can find remains of the stakes you can carbon date them. But that is
a crap shoot because the stakes would be replaced from time to time. I don't
know what woods are used for stakes there but there are woods that will last
over 100 year in the ground.

Digging down below the plow pan you should be able to find evidence of thing
long past. I have seen prairie dog holes were the parried dog town was
killed out 60 years before the oil well slush pit was dug in very sandy
soil.

Gordon

Any literature references are greatly welcome.

This site shows that "Bouillie Bordelaise" (a Copper Sulphate and
Calcium Carbonate solution) was introduced into wine production in SW
France as a treatment for mildew in 1885:

http://www.logassist.com/gastronomie/vins/histoire.asp

Hope this helps.

regards
Marcus