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Sustainability in 3rd world agriculture
I have a relative who has spent nearly a year in rural tajikistan, living with local farmers. I have been given permission to quote this extract from an email they sent recently. It's for general interest. =================== The family we stayed with has a hectare of rented land sown to wheat but is only yielding about 0.6 tonnes/ha, which is just enough to feed their family of six children for 4 months. The rest must come from the sale of a couple of cows. But the farmer says: "the land is tired and each year it is producing less and less." In living memory it has never had anything but wheat grown on it. Then take the firewood situation. In order to have enough firewood in the 3 months of winter (when electricity is only supplied 4 hours a day) to heat and cook, he must travel 10 km on his donkey every day for 1 month out to an area where firewood is rapidly being depleted. He also rents a few rows in the apple orchard but the trees are over 50 years old so they are no longer producing what they once did, and besides they are so tall and un-pruned that much of the fruit cannot be harvested. He also had a hectare of land that he once grew chickpeas on. Sadly this last year mud and rocks resembling a big alluvial fan came down from the mountain and completely buried his field. They are just scraping by. Health-wise the family had obvious nutritional deficiencies. The wife had goitre (this country is completely devoid of iodine in its soils) and iron deficiency and no doubt many more. The hard thing to realise is they are in a catch twenty-two situation. They only have just enough to live on now. But what about next year and the one after that and the one after that - when their wheat yields fall even more, when they have to go 15km instead of 10 every day for wood, when the old apple trees give up the ghost and haven’t been replaced. Sustainable???? -- Oz This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious. Note: soon (maybe already) only posts via despammed.com will be accepted. |
Sustainability in 3rd world agriculture
"sw" wrote in message ... Oz wrote: The hard thing to realise is they are in a catch twenty-two situation. They only have just enough to live on now. But what about next year and the one after that and the one after that - when their wheat yields fall even more, when they have to go 15km instead of 10 every day for wood, when the old apple trees give up the ghost and havenâ?Tt been replaced. Sustainable???? Clearly not. it certainly looks grim. The sensible thing to do in that sort of area is for them to diversify out of food production, get jobs where their labour will undercut European wage rates and buy food in. Even a part time job that paid enough to let them get a proper diet would help break the downward spiral. Jim Webster regards sarah -- Waist deep, neck deep We'll be drowning before too long We're neck deep in the Big Muddy And the damned fools keep yelling to push on |
Sustainability in 3rd world agriculture
"Jim Webster" wrote in message ... "sw" wrote in message ... Oz wrote: The hard thing to realise is they are in a catch twenty-two situation. They only have just enough to live on now. But what about next year and the one after that and the one after that - when their wheat yields fall even more, when they have to go 15km instead of 10 every day for wood, when the old apple trees give up the ghost and havenâ?Tt been replaced. Sustainable???? Clearly not. it certainly looks grim. The sensible thing to do in that sort of area is for them to diversify out of food production, get jobs where their labour will undercut European wage rates and buy food in. Even a part time job that paid enough to let them get a proper diet would help break the downward spiral. Leaving his family behind or starving in slums near the city. Being poor in a rural setting is bad it is worse in an urban one. Gordon |
Sustainability in 3rd world agriculture
Jim Webster writes
it certainly looks grim. The sensible thing to do in that sort of area is for them to diversify out of food production, That's what they are trying. They have borrowed to buy beads to make necklaces. The whole thing sounds like a classical pyramid sell and if it is they will have big debts, a pile of unsaleable necklaces, and borrowings to boot. get jobs where their labour will undercut European wage rates and buy food in. Unskilled, uneducated and isolated. Hmmm.... Even a part time job that paid enough to let them get a proper diet would help break the downward spiral. There are no jobs. There is little infrastructure. It's (I think) the third poorest country in the world. -- Oz This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious. Note: soon (maybe already) only posts via despammed.com will be accepted. |
Sustainability in 3rd world agriculture
"Oz" wrote in message ... Jim Webster writes it certainly looks grim. The sensible thing to do in that sort of area is for them to diversify out of food production, That's what they are trying. They have borrowed to buy beads to make necklaces. The whole thing sounds like a classical pyramid sell and if it is they will have big debts, a pile of unsaleable necklaces, and borrowings to boot. get jobs where their labour will undercut European wage rates and buy food in. Unskilled, uneducated and isolated. Hmmm.... Even a part time job that paid enough to let them get a proper diet would help break the downward spiral. There are no jobs. There is little infrastructure. It's (I think) the third poorest country in the world. yet there is a plant making JD tractor parts (I know because we had a bit marked tajikistan. I assumed that it was from a retooled soviet era tank factory.) But let us look at it rationally. 1) there isn't a lot of point of them trying to do anything agricultural because even if they get the land right and yields up they are still just subsistance peasants producing commodity product. I cannot imagine there being a market for Tajik grain beer or melons. 2) I would suspect that educational level/literacy is pretty good so they would happily train up to work in pretty well any industry. At the moment they would doubtless undercut pretty well most other labour pools. 3) With money coming in they have the money behind them to start improving their land, some will buy or rent more, some will give up the land altogether because they make enough from their job. 4) It needs some investment at the start of the process and for the first generation it can be tough, but things improve and you end up with a prosperous urban society with good medical care and adequate food for everyone. It's called the industrial revolution and worked for us. Jim Webster |
Sustainability in 3rd world agriculture
Jim Webster writes
But let us look at it rationally. 1) there isn't a lot of point of them trying to do anything agricultural because even if they get the land right and yields up they are still just subsistance peasants producing commodity product. I cannot imagine there being a market for Tajik grain beer or melons. It's cotton. Takes all the essential irrigation water, trashes the environment. Ex-soviet megafarms, apparently. 2) I would suspect that educational level/literacy is pretty good I don't know, but I suspect not. so they would happily train up to work in pretty well any industry. At the moment they would doubtless undercut pretty well most other labour pools. No, because it's a full time job getting water, firewood and basic foods. 3) With money coming in they have the money behind them to start improving their land, some will buy or rent more, some will give up the land altogether because they make enough from their job. I think they are currently several stages earlier than this. 4) It needs some investment at the start of the process and for the first generation it can be tough, but things improve and you end up with a prosperous urban society with good medical care and adequate food for everyone. It's called the industrial revolution and worked for us. Trouble is you are competing with china. Which has vastly superior infrastructure and is apparently stable politically. -- Oz This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious. Note: soon (maybe already) only posts via despammed.com will be accepted. |
Sustainability in 3rd world agriculture
"Oz" wrote in message ... Jim Webster writes But let us look at it rationally. 1) there isn't a lot of point of them trying to do anything agricultural because even if they get the land right and yields up they are still just subsistance peasants producing commodity product. I cannot imagine there being a market for Tajik grain beer or melons. It's cotton. Takes all the essential irrigation water, trashes the environment. Ex-soviet megafarms, apparently. I've seen the Aral sea from the air:-(( 2) I would suspect that educational level/literacy is pretty good I don't know, but I suspect not. I have been to Uzebeckistan when it was still soviet and they had pretty good levels of education, but I don't know whether this was general so they would happily train up to work in pretty well any industry. At the moment they would doubtless undercut pretty well most other labour pools. No, because it's a full time job getting water, firewood and basic foods. That is what you have to break away from. The grinding poverty which doesn't actually give you time to get away from your grinding poverty Jim Webster |
Sustainability in 3rd world agriculture
"Jim Webster" wrote in message ... "Oz" wrote in message ... Jim Webster writes But let us look at it rationally. 1) there isn't a lot of point of them trying to do anything agricultural because even if they get the land right and yields up they are still just subsistance peasants producing commodity product. I cannot imagine there being a market for Tajik grain beer or melons. It's cotton. Takes all the essential irrigation water, trashes the environment. Ex-soviet megafarms, apparently. I've seen the Aral sea from the air:-(( 2) I would suspect that educational level/literacy is pretty good I don't know, but I suspect not. I have been to Uzebeckistan when it was still soviet and they had pretty good levels of education, but I don't know whether this was general so they would happily train up to work in pretty well any industry. At the moment they would doubtless undercut pretty well most other labour pools. No, because it's a full time job getting water, firewood and basic foods. That is what you have to break away from. The grinding poverty which doesn't actually give you time to get away from your grinding poverty I have a friend whose husband works in Siberia for Halliburton. He has 3 secretaries that top one get $300 a month. They are pretty, intelligent and very hard worker putting in more hour that they are paid. Because there are a thousand more just a pretty, just as smart that will work just as hard wanting the job. After Africa Siberia is the promised land. Gordon |
Sustainability in 3rd world agriculture
"Jim Webster" wrote in message ... "Oz" wrote in message ... Jim Webster writes it certainly looks grim. The sensible thing to do in that sort of area is for them to diversify out of food production, That's what they are trying. They have borrowed to buy beads to make necklaces. The whole thing sounds like a classical pyramid sell and if it is they will have big debts, a pile of unsaleable necklaces, and borrowings to boot. get jobs where their labour will undercut European wage rates and buy food in. Unskilled, uneducated and isolated. Hmmm.... Even a part time job that paid enough to let them get a proper diet would help break the downward spiral. There are no jobs. There is little infrastructure. It's (I think) the third poorest country in the world. yet there is a plant making JD tractor parts (I know because we had a bit marked tajikistan. I assumed that it was from a retooled soviet era tank factory.) But let us look at it rationally. 1) there isn't a lot of point of them trying to do anything agricultural because even if they get the land right and yields up they are still just subsistance peasants producing commodity product. I cannot imagine there being a market for Tajik grain beer or melons. 2) I would suspect that educational level/literacy is pretty good so they would happily train up to work in pretty well any industry. At the moment they would doubtless undercut pretty well most other labour pools. 3) With money coming in they have the money behind them to start improving their land, some will buy or rent more, some will give up the land altogether because they make enough from their job. 4) It needs some investment at the start of the process and for the first generation it can be tough, but things improve and you end up with a prosperous urban society with good medical care and adequate food for everyone. It's called the industrial revolution and worked for us. Jim Webster And that's just considering the issues for one family, in one poor country. Roughly half the global population live this way, some have it worse. It's actually far more normal to live as they do than as we do. It's been normal through all recorded history for most people to live that way. We're the freaks. Michael Saunby |
Sustainability in 3rd world agriculture
"Michael Saunby" wrote in message ... And that's just considering the issues for one family, in one poor country. Roughly half the global population live this way, some have it worse. It's actually far more normal to live as they do than as we do. It's been normal through all recorded history for most people to live that way. We're the freaks. Michael Saunby too true, but eventually someone will invest there, and export jobs from here to there, so one wonders who will be the freaks then Ironically, one thing we can do in this country that cannot be done in a lot of places is to produce food. Not as cheap as in some places, but more reliably than in most places. Jim Webster |
Sustainability in 3rd world agriculture
Vietnam is the same but cheaper . The Vietnamese manager of an expat restaurant is on US$160 /month which is well paid against his peers let alone those who work manually for a living . 500ml bottle of tiger beer 30p street corner keg beer 5p/glass bowl of noodles on street 5p vietnam fags 30p 4 kebabs stuffed in large roll 25p John Sunckell Dairying Downunder I have a friend whose husband works in Siberia for Halliburton. He has 3 secretaries that top one get $300 a month. They are pretty, intelligent and very hard worker putting in more hour that they are paid. Because there are a thousand more just a pretty, just as smart that will work just as hard wanting the job. After Africa Siberia is the promised land. Gordon |
Sustainability in 3rd world agriculture
"Jim Webster" wrote in message ... "Michael Saunby" wrote in message ... And that's just considering the issues for one family, in one poor country. Roughly half the global population live this way, some have it worse. It's actually far more normal to live as they do than as we do. It's been normal through all recorded history for most people to live that way. We're the freaks. Michael Saunby too true, but eventually someone will invest there, and export jobs from here to there, so one wonders who will be the freaks then Ironically, one thing we can do in this country that cannot be done in a lot of places is to produce food. Not as cheap as in some places, but more reliably than in most places. In absolute global terms it might not be cheap, but compared with other UK "industries", e.g. insurance, banking, IT, hairdressing, vehicle servicing, house building, etc, agriculture is very efficient and very cheap. It's not the low price of imports that keeps UK food prices low, it's the 70% or so of food that we produce for ourselves using the absolute minimum of over-priced, under-productive UK labour. Michael Saunby |
Sustainability in 3rd world agriculture
Jim Webster writes
I have been to Uzebeckistan when it was still soviet and they had pretty good levels of education, but I don't know whether this was general Rural areas may not be so well served. It's still very muslim indeed (not to mention superstitious). -- Oz This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious. Note: soon (maybe already) only posts via despammed.com will be accepted. |
Sustainability in 3rd world agriculture
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Sustainability in 3rd world agriculture
"sw" wrote in message ... Gordon Couger wrote: "Jim Webster" wrote in message ... "sw" wrote in message ... Oz wrote: The hard thing to realise is they are in a catch twenty-two situation. They only have just enough to live on now. But what about next year and the one after that and the one after that - when their wheat yields fall even more, when they have to go 15km instead of 10 every day for wood, when the old apple trees give up the ghost and havenâ?Tt been replaced. Sustainable???? Clearly not. it certainly looks grim. The sensible thing to do in that sort of area is for them to diversify out of food production, get jobs where their labour will undercut European wage rates and buy food in. Even a part time job that paid enough to let them get a proper diet would help break the downward spiral. Leaving his family behind or starving in slums near the city. Being poor in a rural setting is bad it is worse in an urban one. Yes. Ideally an aid agency would arrive with information and funding for local schemes promoting alternative cropping strategies, low-tech water retention, primary health care and education. Then at least the people have a chance of producing sufficient food to feed themselves and their children, and start to reduce the birth rate, which eventually means they all have a better chance of finding the time and energy to invent other projects earning money from outside the area. If someone flies in and dumps a factory on them it might provide an opportunity to earn cash, but it'll almost certainly be a starvation wage with no hope of anything better. Ah, you mean give them some power. There's a reason why this rarely happens. Michael Saunby |
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