Paying to find non-GE wild corn?
Moosh:] wrote:
On 21 Jul 2003 11:39:12 GMT, Brian Sandle wrote: "Some disease causing bacteria, like Salmonella typhimurium, invade human cells when they infect people. News to me, but there you go. What sort of cells are invaded? Leucocytes? Epithelial cells. It looks like the whole article is free to read: Linkname: J. Bact -- Ferguson et al. 184 (8): 2235 URL: http://jb.asm.org/cgi/content/full/1...&pmid=11914355 size: 947 lines JB International Journal of Systematic and Evolutionary Microbiology Gene Transfer between Salmonella enterica Serovar Typhimurium inside Epithelial Cells Gayle C. Ferguson,1 Jack A. Heinemann,1^,2^* and Martin A. Kennedy3 Department of Plant and Microbial Sciences, University of Canterbury,1 Department of Pathology, Christchurch School of Medicine, Christchurch, New Zealand,3 Norwegian Institute of Gene Ecology, Tromsų, Norway2 Received 5 November 2001/ Accepted 16 January 2002 There the bacteria coul dbe protected from antibiotics while exhanging the genes for antibiotic resistance and the genes that make bacteria better at causing disease. Laboratory tests proved that genes do transfer between these bacteria even when antibiotics are present. The ability of bacteria to exchange genes insdie human cells also suggests the bacteria could transfer genes to the human genome. However, Heinemann says, `This is not necessarily going to cause the transfer of bacterial genes to our sex cells and to our children, because these bacteria do not normally have access to our sex cells'" - Deborah Parker, UC Alumni, Winter 2003, p 19. Though who knows, when, as I posted in the `apocalypse' thread, GM can be used to make, in corn, antibodies which will destroy human sperm. And this would be injected into what site on the body? I don't know if they have to be injected. What is the route of the anti-sperm antibodies that vasectomised men may start to produce? Why would you want to manufacture anti-sperm antibodies? Contraception? If it could be put in food it might be a political tool. These are only just proteins, BTW it is necessary to take more care with drug resistance genes. Is not sufficient care already being taken? No. Things are done with the knowledge of the decade. What more can you ask? When you are working with the bases of life take some heed from people who sacrifice their jobs when they have not been listened to. We should not be feeding drug resistance genes to people en masse, not checking up with control groups if it is triggering anything. What evidence have you that this has not been thoroughly investigated? It has been examined with the old ideas. That genes are transferred from parent to offspring (vertical movement) was the basis. That is now outmoded. Genes go horizontally from one bacteria to another, and that is the more dominant method of passing on resistance. It can happen in human cells where bacteria are protected from antibiotics. But how is this well-known phenomenon related to GE? In GE genes are moved horizontally artificially. They are engineered in a package which makes it easier to move in. They will then be more potently available to bacteria. Heinemann's work was `recognised by the American Society for Microbiology as teh best published in April 2002. The society publishes 600 of the many thousands of articles submitted to its journals each month, and of the 600 published last year, the Canterbury research was singled out as "best of the best."' Fine. Bacteria swap genes. As they can multiply "vertically" from one to 4,722,366,400,000,000,000,000 in just one day, I think this is probably not all that fantastic :) Fritjof Capra already in 1996 reports about Kauffman (1993): `sytems biologists have begun to portray teh genome as a self-organizing network capable of spontaneously producing new forms of order. "We must rethink evolutionary biology," writes Stuart Kauffman. "Much of the order we see in organisms may be the direct result not of natural selection but of the natural order selection was allowed to act on... Evolution is not just a tinkering ... It is an emergent order honored and honed by selection."' |
Paying to find non-GE wild corn?
"ddwyer" wrote in message ... In article , Moosh:] writes Thanks Gordon, good point. Not thet there's much more we can do about it than what we are doing. If you want to convert a sheep or a bacteria to produce a bioactive material such as a protein as a theraputic agent the way foreward is not to breed or mutate but GM a species. I.e. create a self replicating factory. GM food has the potential to generate unwanted materials that mutation and breeding cannot. Can you please give us specifics about "unwanted materials" in GE food that mutation breeding cannot. Thanks. Dave Unwanted material in foodstuffs will be the rare hazard that we wont recognise until too late. Sadly whole populations will consume; not just the ill for whom the risk would ba acceptable. -- ddwyer |
Paying to find non-GE wild corn?
"Brian Sandle" wrote in message ... Jim Webster wrote: "Brian Sandle" wrote in message ... That is what I was trying to convey. It is subtle since if you kill all of your hosts you die, too. There must be some of that knowledge in the genome, too. no, it is purely a matter of categorisation on our part. Diseases kill their hosts, parasites don't necessarily. It is our labelling, not anything the organism is doing Viruses don't even multiply without a host. I presume you look up your memory bank to remind yourself how to keep alive. Do not kill every last host. If there is stress start swopping genes faster. what memory bank? The `junk DNA'. What about the "junk DNA"? This is the memory bank? Dave Where is there any evidence of this. I think you are getting carried away with the classifications again. If you run out of hosts you just find more Jump species? You would have to do that before you killed every last one of the previous species. |
Paying to find non-GE wild corn?
"Brian Sandle" wrote in message ... In sci.med.nutrition Gordon Couger wrote: "Brian Sandle" wrote in message ... In sci.med.nutrition Moosh:] wrote: On 19 Jul 2003 04:05:43 GMT, Brian Sandle wrote: And if you don't want to catch an illness, keep away from the source,if you know what it is. How far away is labelling of GM ingredientsin corn chips, herrings in tomato sauce, chocolate &c &c? Logically, as far away as labelling that a random mutation happened in the corn field. No because the sorts of mutations which nature has learnt to allow to multiply are ones beneficial to itself. The `junk' genes which can later help the plant relate to stress are tested over the thousands of years. Nature has learnt to keep a strict order in the genome. The GM process defeats that. Many people are saying that drug resistance markers should have ceased being used, or never started. With all the random mutations we caused by intentional radiation and chemical mutigens that I can still buy across the counter that are in virtually every variety of every crop out there you worry about one or two genes that were carefully studied and then checked buy the breeders, USDA and in some cases the EPA. The genes were not checked. What genes were not checked? Genes used to make GE plants such as Roundup Ready soybeans and Bt corn? If you answer yes to that, then you are indeed wrong. There was considerable study and gene mapping of these introduced genes. Dave What was checked was the substance the genes were *intended* to make the plant produce. What was not able to be dealt with was the strong promoters needed to make the genes switch on and do their work. Those promoters are going radomly into the genome and are near other genes as well, causing them to possibly switch on, too, with who knows what effects. In the past and it is sill the practice for crops treated with mutigens there is no testing or oversight on a process that you have no idea what you have changed you just take what looks good and breed it back dragging along who knows what kind of hidden mutation along with it. But you are leaving it to the plant to do the organisation after it is damaged. You are not specifically implanting genes to outwit the natural scheme of adjustment. |
Paying to find non-GE wild corn?
In sci.med.nutrition David Kendra wrote:
"Brian Sandle" wrote in message ... In sci.med.nutrition Gordon Couger wrote: "Brian Sandle" wrote in message ... In sci.med.nutrition Moosh:] wrote: On 19 Jul 2003 04:05:43 GMT, Brian Sandle wrote: And if you don't want to catch an illness, keep away from the source,if you know what it is. How far away is labelling of GM ingredientsin corn chips, herrings in tomato sauce, chocolate &c &c? Logically, as far away as labelling that a random mutation happened in the corn field. No because the sorts of mutations which nature has learnt to allow to multiply are ones beneficial to itself. The `junk' genes which can later help the plant relate to stress are tested over the thousands of years. Nature has learnt to keep a strict order in the genome. The GM process defeats that. Many people are saying that drug resistance markers should have ceased being used, or never started. With all the random mutations we caused by intentional radiation and chemical mutigens that I can still buy across the counter that are in virtually every variety of every crop out there you worry about one or two genes that were carefully studied and then checked buy the breeders, USDA and in some cases the EPA. The genes were not checked. What genes were not checked? Genes used to make GE plants such as Roundup Ready soybeans and Bt corn? If you answer yes to that, then you are indeed wrong. There was considerable study and gene mapping of these introduced genes. Yes. Now engineers in any field, mechanical or electrical or anything, know that what theory says is not always what works. There is a lot of trial and error and practical theories are continually improved. Moving the parts on a computer motherboard might stop it from being so fast, or make it unstable. Just electric network theory may be severely lacking. When you introduce a gene you also introduce a promoter and the process is a bit hit and miss. It has been found that the characterization of Rounup Ready soy was rather inexact. The promoter, when strong, may not just switch on the gene next to it, but also ones further along. And it may not do that until certain conditions of stress come up. Heat, drought, cold, other herbicides or pesticides which are later found necessary. The theories are not good enough to predict it all. Dave What was checked was the substance the genes were *intended* to make the plant produce. What was not able to be dealt with was the strong promoters needed to make the genes switch on and do their work. Those promoters are going radomly into the genome and are near other genes as well, causing them to possibly switch on, too, with who knows what effects. In the past and it is sill the practice for crops treated with mutigens there is no testing or oversight on a process that you have no idea what you have changed you just take what looks good and breed it back dragging along who knows what kind of hidden mutation along with it. But you are leaving it to the plant to do the organisation after it is damaged. You are not specifically implanting genes to outwit the natural scheme of adjustment. |
Paying to find non-GE wild corn?
Moosh:] wrote:
On 21 Jul 2003 11:53:41 GMT, Brian Sandle wrote: In sci.med.nutrition Gordon Couger wrote: "Brian Sandle" wrote in message ... Not anthropomorphism, ecology of genes. The chief of the University of Canterbury Plant and Microbial Sciences Department runs the New Zealand Gene Ecology organisation. (Jack Heinemann) (do google search in www.canterbury.ac.nz) Because bacteria can exchange genes to their advantage in the protected environment of a human cell it is necessary to take more care with drug resistance genes. We should not be feeding drug resistance genes to people en masse, not checking up with control groups if it is triggering anything. As bacteria make better bacteria we have to make better drugs. However in this case we are doing the opposite. We are giving the bacteria the genes to improve their resistance. You reckon they haven't already tried these somewhere over the past aeons? Afterall where did these "resistance markers" come from? Probably from culturing them in a weak antibiotic environment, then gradually stronger when you find ones which learn to survive. Yes this may be important in the short term, but in the grand scheme of things, it's only a matter of time before these bacteria would have developed resistance to all antibiotics known today. When the resistance is of no use to them then the gene to express it will not be expressing. That is when there is no antibiotic being applied for a while. But put the genes in everyone's food and they are always there. The same is true with insects on the farm. 75 years ago simple natural pesticides work for my father. In the 50's and 60's the first generation of insecticides work very very well. We have had to keep making better insecticides and at the same time more specific ones. But as Jim admitted there is no drug that could cure his father's MRSA (methicillin resistant Staphylococcus aureus). I suspect there was, but his father was unable to take it. Something like vancomycin? I have read someone suggesting using it for prevention when they do operations. So resistance to it by Staph. aureus will probably be developing, too. Yes it is a bit toxic - maybe hearing damage to quite a few. There is always a drug which can kill the illness, but may quite often kill the patient, agreed. It had to be left to nature to take its course with some nursing care (soap and water and bandages). We also learned how to extend their usefulness but he means `by' not `but'. refuges and IPM. When you plant bt corn or cotton you plant it in a checkerboard pattern with non-bt so some of the bugs will develop in non-bt and the development of resistance will be slowed a bit. Still there will be loss of effectiveness of organic bt to the organic farmers who only apply it when necessary, and have it active for a short period. With that use resistance does not develop. With the bt crops teh bt is there all the time and gradually weakens as the crop ages - perfect for development of resistance. It always amazes me how Organic folk can accept a GE "chemical" as OK for their needs. Bt is a natural soil bacterium, Bacillus thuringiensis, which happens to be toxic to butterfly and moth larvae. It is not a GE "chemical", though the genes producing the Bt toxins have been engineered into GE crops. Desperation? Anyways, Bt has been so overused that it only has a limited useful life. Now that it is present perpetually, whether really needed or not, you are right. New specific pesticides will be developed. Which we do not know the problems with. And the produce will probably not sell as well as when the organic Bt stuff was used occasionally. If you want to blame some one for antibiotic resistant bacteria the water out of the sewer plant has several orders of magnitude more effect that crops possibly could because they are mixed with the pathogens at the sewer and in the environment and give them a chance to build resistance. Sewage is not being eaten by everyone. But it's where epidemics start. Epidemics start when the bugs are resistant to the conditions in the host. They continue when drugs given to the host are resisted by the bugs, too. When everyone is eating food with the resistance in it that is far more likely. Also it will be worse with incompletely digested naked DNA from GM crops. I don't see why. Why should a gut commensal suddenly become pathogenic at the same time it absorbs a million-to-one chance of a compatible antibiotic resistant gene? Bacterial resistance tends to be multidrug resistant. Poor food hygiene introduces the bacteria from a worker who has not washed themselves or animal faecal contamination. An infected beast or human is treated with antibiotics and the bacteria has ducked inside a huamn cell and exchanges drug resistance from naked DNA which has got there since everyone has it in their diet. Lots in the population have less than optimal digestion, leaky guts from gluten injury, and will get the naked DNA into their circulation. Seems very far-fetched to me. Of course there will likely be plenty of other antibiotics to treat this rare event, if that is what is needed. Another class of antibiotics may have deleterious side effects - hearing damage, kidney damage, liver damage. Some 3 to 14% of hospital admissions result from prescribed drug injury. |
Paying to find non-GE wild corn?
Jim Webster wrote:
Why would estrogenic compounds have nothing to do with estrogenic pasture? you asked about the effects of estrogenic pasture on cattle, you have shown no evidence that there is such an effect I asked you as one farmer whether you have noticed anything. Have you ever had cows on red clover to any extent? Then have you noticed any affect on them? Or the estrogenic mycotoxin zearallenone? Don't some farmers use it as a steroid to increase growth of animals? I think I posted how it reduces fertility. |
Paying to find non-GE wild corn?
Moosh:] wrote:
On 19 Jul 2003 12:04:27 GMT, Brian Sandle wrote: Moosh:] wrote: On 19 Jul 2003 04:24:23 GMT, Brian Sandle wrote: Moosh:] wrote: On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 08:59:34 -0700, Dzogvi Gzboli wrote: Where can I find a list of the persons/cases in which diagnosable injury resulted from ingesting GE corn? Or medical journal reports? You are joking? Doesn't the inability to find such say something? Not really. Farmers are judging that cows fed on GM corn give less milk. Which farmers? Which cows? Which corn? Where? I shall have to search it out. But you might expect it. It does not take much to affect milk production, cows even have music preferences. If you say so :) I've heard tomatoes do too. As I reported before rats given the choice of GM and non-GM feed had a preference for the latter. So that could affect the cows. The rats play different music? How did the rats tell the difference? Its extremely difficult for science to differentiate. Animals have good sense organs. They can almost sense the theoretical limit of low light intensity. They have a good sense of smell, and the different protein expression in the food would smell different. It is a few percent of the plant. Besides the extra Roundup may have a taste or smell. Before Roundup Ready times strict withholding periods for herbicides had to be adhered to. Which herbicides? They are all different. With holding times still apply. Roundup has been promoted as safe so is applied more. Look, glyphosate ( a very safe plant enzyme inhibitor) can be applied to RR crops during growth. Whereas with conventional crops it is applied heavily before sowing, and then other more toxic and expensive selective herbicides are applied during growth. It migh not be ideal, but it is a big improvement on the conventional regime. I know it is thought to be safe. Indeed some farmers used it to dry out a crop for harvest. Now I wonder what they do about that. Extra? Something else? And isn't Roundup resistance transfering to the weeds so the other herbicides are needed anyway? And you have to buy it with the Monsanto seed. No you don't. You can not buy anything you like. You can not buy anything you like. You contract to buy Roundup when you buy the RR seeds. So it will be used, most likely, since it has been bought under the contract, whether it is really needed or not. Do Monsanto allow you to buy the seed without Roundup next time? Then how do they make their profit on the loss leader technology fee on the seeds? It is the Roundup sale which makes the profit. So there will be more Roundup in the corn crop now. It breaks down rapidly in plants see EXTOXNET: http://ace.orst.edu/info/extoxnet/pips/ghindex.html But it does adhere to soil particles and may not break down, even in waterways. And anyway, it is quite harmless. Not necessarily to water creatures, or to many humans, possibly. It will be more estrogenic. Like many many molecules in the environment. But that is assuming it has survived the breakdown in the plant. It is soil bacteria which attempt to break it down. The RR plants will metabolise it something else, then you have to check the toxicity of that. Estrogenic pasture is generally a reproductive problem. as I have posted. That would be some clovers? Some more than others, and mycotoxins. Perhaps Jim might comment on pendulous udders in developing calves produced from cows on estrogenic pasture. They will be harder to milk. Maybe an estrogenic mycotxin is causing it, or red clover, or Roundup? Needs research, I would say. And it hasn't been researched? I'm sure I've come across lots over the years. Who does it profit to research it? Can they afford the research? Will they be bought out? Oh yes when zearallenones increase growth rate of animals owing to their estrogenicity then that gets published. But how often the reproductive problems? Not so much, I believe. It takes a while for troubles to show up in humans. If a few percent more women have to bottle supplement their babies that may reduce a nations great IQ test as the DHA in human milk helps eye - possibly brain development. A long bow to draw? The business world is always trying to avoid taking long time spans into account. That's the job of the regulator, and I believe yours has taken all this into account. The stuff has not been around for a generation. The extra Roundup in human diets of Roundup Ready crops provides extra xeno-estrogen in the diet. What "more Roundup"? The glyphosate, or the surfactant wetting agent? I think it is proprietary information. What is? Glyphosate and surfactant (dish liquid or shampoo)? And a sticky agent, probably. More xeno-oestrogen than what? Than before the advent of Roundup Ready. I very much doubt that. Have you seen the list of hormone disruptors? Reads like the Merck Index. Depends on how much of them or their metabolites are in the food, and environment. You may not see results till the developing eggs in the ovaries of todays foetuses are being fertilised 30 years away. Farmers who would have gone organic are getting caught with polluting Monsanto genes in their crops and rather than fighting are finding it easier to pay up and go totally Roundup Ready, rather than lose the farm. Roundup Ready has huge advantages if a farmer can afford it. Saves on use of far more toxic and expensive herbicides. Roundup also can save much soil erosion from mechanical pre-seeding weed control. Some farmers have `succeeded' with Roundup Ready, but the technology fee is still a loss leader. Well don't buy it. Simple. Monsanto don't expect folks to buy their product if it provides them with no advantage. Then if you happen to get it on your land you are liable. One or two farmers in such cirucumstances have resisted going GE paying the technology fee. Even if they think it is not providing them with advantage they are still charged. Then it is very hard to track an origin of a disease which jumps species in one individual then spreads rapidly through the new species. The GM technology is designed to get genes to cross barriers they otherwise would not. The probability of a jump in one individual is very low, but in the population of China you have to multiply by a billion. I think you are confusing two entirely separate phenomena. Why do you? Well you are talking about the possible spread of gene sequences expressing proteins providing antibiotic resistance to organisms, and then about new diseases. I can't see the connection. They are both furthered by the technology which increases the probability of gene transfer. The drug resistance marker in the GM crops has been warned against by many. But nothing has come of it? What problems has this ever caused? The experminent going on is uncontrolled. Therefore although infectious disease is increasing world wide it cannot be pinned on the GM technology. What infectious diseases are increasing world wide and of which the cause is not known? go to http://www.i-sis.org.uk and search for infectious diseases. One interesting point: Linkname: SARS Virus Genetically Engineered URL: http://www.i-sis.org.uk/SVGE.php size: 247 lines [...] Urnovitz believes that the spike protein of the SARS virus is the result of genetic rearrangements provoked by environmental genotoxic agents, much like those he and his colleagues have detected in Gulf War I veterans suffering from Gulf War Syndrome. But how did the virus get to south China? A possible answer was provided by Urnovitz: Migratory birds that frequent gene-swapping hot spots like southeast China could have carried the SARS virus there. Urnovitz himself doesn't think the SARS virus is the real cause of SARS. Instead, it is the piece of reshuffled human chromosome 7 that others are referring to as the spike protein gene of the SARS virus. That alone is sufficient to trigger serious autoimmune responses in people. Hence, to create vaccines against that `spike' protein is also tantamount to vaccinating people against their own genes (see "Dynamic genomics", this series). [...] All bacteria have always swopped their genes, Just like humans and all beings which reproduce sexually. But bacteria can swap quite a percentage in a day. Their generation span is 20 minutes in ideal situations. But they pass on resistance more by swapping genes rather than passing them on from parent to offspring. they really have a common gene bank, Like all species-like groups No really rather different. You are behind with your reading. In what way different, then. No point saying I'm behind in this and that and outdated. What is intrinsically different from sexual reproductive gene mixing and the way bacteria do it. They don't do it sexually of course. I have explained that a bit, but you can read more in: This is the html version of the file http://www.nzige.canterbury.ac.nz/fi...ubmission.pdf. G o o g l e automatically generates html versions of documents as we crawl the web. To link to or bookmark this page, use the following url: http://www.google.com/cobrand_univ?q... l=en&ie=UTF-8 [...] 3. Issue 2.1, the difference between gene transfer and gene transmission and how that difference should be used in risk analysis. 3.1. Preamble. That HGT is real and an important mechanism by which some genes reproduce is by now widely acknowledged. Yet that acknowledgment is only recent. Had this application been made even five years earlier, the debate on its acceptability would have been at the level of arguing whether HGT happened at all. This is to say that the science of HGT is young even though the effects of HGT have been described since the mid-20th Century (Ferguson and Heinemann, 2002). HGT's role in evolution is just starting to be studied outside of specialist biological examples (eg, Agrobacterium and plants). Technologies purpose designed for its study are only just appearing. So it is understandable, perhaps, that despite the realisation by the larger scientific community that HGT is real and frequent, HGT is not universally incorporated into the daily working analyses of molecular biologists, botanists and zoologists. Moreover, it will take time for this new specialist branch of genetics to become widely incorporated in curricula through the publication of new textbooks. Still, the incorporation of HGT in risk analysis must transcend a cursory knowledge of HGT and cultural barriers to these ideas within some branches of biology. [...] &c, a bit much to quote. and what you do to one gets around and is made use of by the others. Yep, happens in all sexually reproducing gene pools. All surviving mutations will spread into the gene pool. You are behind. Mid 1990s the question was whether horizontal gene transfer occurs. Now it totally accpeted. Bacteria probably pass on more of their survival characteristics through it than through vertical transfer. What is the vertical transfer? Cloning? No parent to offspring. Again, what is intrinsically different in mixing genetic material one way or another? Nothing is new, however. Bacteria have been doing what they do for millions of years. The ref I gave explains. Then you get indirect harm from GM when the drugs we have can no longer treat the illnesses. Examples? I have been in a hospital ward which had MRSA. When I went back to hospital 4 years later I had a red medicalert sticker on my bracelet. It turned out to be an MRSA warning. Several tests were done and some weeks before it was removed. Was MRSA caused by GM? I thought it was bacteria doing what bacteria do. Evolving to resist environmental attack. GM can cause things by direct engineering or secondary picking up of resistance from GM foods and other products. In the latter case what was treatable Staph aureus turns itself into untreatable Staph aureus. If aniamls are being fed GM food with antibiotic resistance genes, and given low dose antibiotic growth promoters en masse, it seems important to look into whether that increases the rate of increase of resistance to antibiotics. Oh, yes, as with the computer viruses made by the people who wish to sell antidotes, it is all work for them. Resistance can develop from animals fed antibiotics, but what about when humans are fed antibiotic resistance genes en masse? They are denatured and digested, along with all the other food we eat. Not when the digestion is not perfect. For one thing transgenes from GE food can be found in colostomy bags. The antibiotics we take lightly are another matter. But it is a bit of a different dimension of risk. Funding of research these days is based on partnerships with profit driven companies. So risk analysis which might take away the quick-profit-and-get-out-of-it is a poor relation. Well if you haven't got a strong regulator.... But don't confuse this with "science". If we had strong Govt risk analysis we would not have had GE crops with antibiotic resistance. |
Paying to find non-GE wild corn?
Moosh:] wrote:
[Re Roundup persistence in corn:] It breaks down rapidly in plants see EXTOXNET: http://ace.orst.edu/info/extoxnet/pips/ghindex.html Pulling a fastie, eh? Your reference contradicts your claim. |
Paying to find non-GE wild corn?
"ddwyer" wrote in message ... In article , Moosh:] writes Thanks Gordon, good point. Not thet there's much more we can do about it than what we are doing. If you want to convert a sheep or a bacteria to produce a bioactive material such as a protein as a theraputic agent the way foreward is not to breed or mutate but GM a species. I.e. create a self replicating factory. GM food has the potential to generate unwanted materials that mutation and breeding cannot. Unwanted material in foodstuffs will be the rare hazard that we wont recognise until too late. Sadly whole populations will consume; not just the ill for whom the risk would ba acceptable. Due to testing in GM food stuffs we are much less likely to get unintended hazards in food stuffs than we are in in normally bred food stuffs. I can list several cases of food stuffs that case harm bred with conventional methods an you can't list a single one with GM methods. If you are going to use arguments use ones that you don't loose at the onset with proven facts. Gordon |
Paying to find non-GE wild corn?
Jim Webster wrote:
"Brian Sandle" wrote in message ... In sci.med.nutrition Gordon Couger wrote: But as Jim admitted there is no drug that could cure his father's MRSA (methicillin resistant Staphylococcus aureus). It had to be left to nature to take its course with some nursing care (soap and water and bandages). Jim did no such thing I might not have made it clear.. Jims father was too weak for the drugs but didn't need them anyway because the bacteria were taken out with an antiseptic wash (which will contain bacterialcides) and soap and water. The drugs were offered but he couldn't handle them What drugs? Here they said soap and water, that is a few years ago. Plus everyone going near the infected people had to wear protective gear. |
Paying to find non-GE wild corn?
Gordon Couger wrote:
"ddwyer" wrote in message ... In article , Moosh:] writes Thanks Gordon, good point. Not thet there's much more we can do about it than what we are doing. If you want to convert a sheep or a bacteria to produce a bioactive material such as a protein as a theraputic agent the way foreward is not to breed or mutate but GM a species. I.e. create a self replicating factory. GM food has the potential to generate unwanted materials that mutation and breeding cannot. Unwanted material in foodstuffs will be the rare hazard that we wont recognise until too late. Sadly whole populations will consume; not just the ill for whom the risk would ba acceptable. Due to testing in GM food stuffs we are much less likely to get unintended hazards in food stuffs than we are in in normally bred food stuffs. To my knowledge they only test people with protein that they expect the GM plant to make. The actual plant could have the engineered promoters switching on other genes, causing troubles you would not be looking for. When the tryptophan from GE sources killed some people it might not have been discovered if the symptoms were similar to some other lethal but fairly common disease. I can list several cases of food stuffs that case harm bred with conventional methods an you can't list a single one with GM methods. They get withdrawn if they cause trouble that is plain obvious. If you are going to use arguments use ones that you don't loose at the onset with proven facts. He means the promoters switching on unexpected gene expression in some conditions. |
Paying to find non-GE wild corn?
On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 09:31:21 GMT, "Gordon Couger"
wrote: Due to testing in GM food stuffs we are much less likely to get unintended hazards in food stuffs than we are in in normally bred food stuffs. I can list several cases of food stuffs that case harm bred with conventional methods an you can't list a single one with GM methods. It is not clear which testing you are referring to -- somewhat linked to it being unclear what you mean by 'food stuffs'. Maybe you meant to write 'varieties'? But then your argument would seem to assume that GM methods are not used in combination with conventional breeding methods. Which they are, and which I know that you know that they are. Or, it assumes that unintended food hazards from the conventional breeding methods involved are being tested for in GM varieties, but not in non-GM varieties of the same crop species -- and that you can name several such comparable non-GM varieties that cause harm because they were not similarly tested from the outset. And, that, I - erm - might well not think that you can. TO make things worse, were you to be inable to name them, that would put you in an awkward position with your argument, since in any given crop species that have GM varieties used for food currently, you would have had vastly more non-GM varieties to pick your alleged harm-causers from, than your opponent would have had GM-varieties. So, perhaps better; can I ask you to rephrase your argument, please. |
Paying to find non-GE wild corn?
"Gordon Couger" wrote in message ...
"ddwyer" wrote in message ... In article , Moosh:] writes Thanks Gordon, good point. Not thet there's much more we can do about it than what we are doing. If you want to convert a sheep or a bacteria to produce a bioactive material such as a protein as a theraputic agent the way foreward is not to breed or mutate but GM a species. I.e. create a self replicating factory. GM food has the potential to generate unwanted materials that mutation and breeding cannot. Unwanted material in foodstuffs will be the rare hazard that we wont recognise until too late. Sadly whole populations will consume; not just the ill for whom the risk would ba acceptable. Due to testing in GM food stuffs we are much less likely to get unintended hazards in food stuffs than we are in in normally bred food stuffs. Another naif who seems to believe that governments and their regulations will save us. It was a British government regulation requiring cattle to be heavily dosed with organophosphate pesticides which may have triggered the BSE outbreak. See Mark Purdy's research. I can list several cases of food stuffs that case harm bred with conventional methods an you can't list a single one with GM methods. I certainly can, a company in San Diego named Epicyte. They are producing a spermicide in corn kernals via GM. ================================================== =========== Vast fields of maize could soon be churning out antibodies for preventing sexually transmitted diseases. Researchers at Epicyte, a biotech company in San Diego, say their technology promises to make the mass production of therapeutic antibodies easier and cheaper. At the moment, therapeutic antibodies are produced using hamster ovary cells - an expensive method that produces limited amounts. But Epicyte's new "plantibody" technology allows the DNA that codes for antibodies to be introduced into crop plants such as maize. The antibodies are only produced in the maize kernels, making it easy to extract them using current maize-processing methods. Epicyte is already well on the way to producing an antibody to prevent herpes infection, says Andrew Hiatt, who helped develop the technology. The antibody, HX8, works by sticking to the virus and blocking its entry into cells, and has proved highly effective in animal tests. Although condoms provide some protection against herpes infection, they are not 100 per cent reliable. But HX8 can provide protection in the vagina for 24 hours. Epicyte is also developing antibodies that block HIV transmission and the virus that causes genital warts. The HX8 genes have already been transferred into maize, and Epicyte plans to start clinical trials of the antibody next year. Hiatt hopes plantibodies will be cheap enough for consumers to buy them over the counter. "That's the ultimate goal," he says. Claire Ainsworth http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99991373 ================================================== =================== I don't want my balls to be damaged every time I eat corn just because a company wants to improve it's bottom line. Once their GM pollen escapes into the air there's no going back, and no protection for any other corn plant in the world. It's already happened. ================================================== ================ "Biotech Company Admits StarLink Contamination is Forever Knight Ridder/Tribune Biotech Firm Executive Says Genetically Engineered Corn Is Here to Stay Mar. 19 A top Aventis CropScience executive said Sunday that the food supply will never be rid of the new strain of corn that the company genetically engineered at Research Triangle Park." http://www.purefood.org/ge/starlinkforever.cfm ================================================== ================== ================================================== ================== "Genetically Modified Corn Spreading to Protected Wild Corn Despite Mexico's 3-year-old moratorium on the use of genetically altered corn, scientists have detected genetically modified DNA in wild maize in the mountains of the state of Oaxaca. Wayward genes from genetically modified corn that is widely grown in Canada and the United States are spreading in remote mountainous regions of Mexico. Up to 70% of wild Mexican maize now carries transgenes that could only have come from genetically engineered crops. The transgenes, which scientists borrow from viruses and bacteria, have been engineered into GM crops." Nature November 29, 2001;414:541-543 http://www.mercola.com/2001/dec/12/gm_corn.htm ================================================== ===================== If you are going to use arguments use ones that you don't loose at the onset with proven facts. Gordon I just used proven facts. --Hua Kul |
Paying to find non-GE wild corn?
On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 09:31:21 GMT, "Gordon Couger"
wrote: Due to testing in GM food stuffs we are much less likely to get unintended hazards in food stuffs than we are in in normally bred food stuffs. I can list several cases of food stuffs that case harm bred with conventional methods an you can't list a single one with GM methods. It is not clear which testing you are referring to -- somewhat linked to it being unclear what you mean by 'food stuffs'. Maybe you meant to write 'varieties'? But then your argument would seem to assume that GM methods are not used in combination with conventional breeding methods. Which they are, and which I know that you know that they are. Or, it assumes that unintended food hazards from the conventional breeding methods involved are being tested for in GM varieties, but not in non-GM varieties of the same crop species -- and that you can name several such comparable non-GM varieties that cause harm because they were not similarly tested from the outset. And, that, I - erm - might well not think that you can. TO make things worse, were you to be inable to name them, that would put you in an awkward position with your argument, since in any given crop species that have GM varieties used for food currently, you would have had vastly more non-GM varieties to pick your alleged harm-causers from, than your opponent would have had GM-varieties. So, perhaps better; can I ask you to rephrase your argument, please. |
Paying to find non-GE wild corn?
"Gordon Couger" wrote in message ...
"ddwyer" wrote in message ... In article , Moosh:] writes Thanks Gordon, good point. Not thet there's much more we can do about it than what we are doing. If you want to convert a sheep or a bacteria to produce a bioactive material such as a protein as a theraputic agent the way foreward is not to breed or mutate but GM a species. I.e. create a self replicating factory. GM food has the potential to generate unwanted materials that mutation and breeding cannot. Unwanted material in foodstuffs will be the rare hazard that we wont recognise until too late. Sadly whole populations will consume; not just the ill for whom the risk would ba acceptable. Due to testing in GM food stuffs we are much less likely to get unintended hazards in food stuffs than we are in in normally bred food stuffs. Another naif who seems to believe that governments and their regulations will save us. It was a British government regulation requiring cattle to be heavily dosed with organophosphate pesticides which may have triggered the BSE outbreak. See Mark Purdy's research. I can list several cases of food stuffs that case harm bred with conventional methods an you can't list a single one with GM methods. I certainly can, a company in San Diego named Epicyte. They are producing a spermicide in corn kernals via GM. ================================================== =========== Vast fields of maize could soon be churning out antibodies for preventing sexually transmitted diseases. Researchers at Epicyte, a biotech company in San Diego, say their technology promises to make the mass production of therapeutic antibodies easier and cheaper. At the moment, therapeutic antibodies are produced using hamster ovary cells - an expensive method that produces limited amounts. But Epicyte's new "plantibody" technology allows the DNA that codes for antibodies to be introduced into crop plants such as maize. The antibodies are only produced in the maize kernels, making it easy to extract them using current maize-processing methods. Epicyte is already well on the way to producing an antibody to prevent herpes infection, says Andrew Hiatt, who helped develop the technology. The antibody, HX8, works by sticking to the virus and blocking its entry into cells, and has proved highly effective in animal tests. Although condoms provide some protection against herpes infection, they are not 100 per cent reliable. But HX8 can provide protection in the vagina for 24 hours. Epicyte is also developing antibodies that block HIV transmission and the virus that causes genital warts. The HX8 genes have already been transferred into maize, and Epicyte plans to start clinical trials of the antibody next year. Hiatt hopes plantibodies will be cheap enough for consumers to buy them over the counter. "That's the ultimate goal," he says. Claire Ainsworth http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99991373 ================================================== =================== I don't want my balls to be damaged every time I eat corn just because a company wants to improve it's bottom line. Once their GM pollen escapes into the air there's no going back, and no protection for any other corn plant in the world. It's already happened. ================================================== ================ "Biotech Company Admits StarLink Contamination is Forever Knight Ridder/Tribune Biotech Firm Executive Says Genetically Engineered Corn Is Here to Stay Mar. 19 A top Aventis CropScience executive said Sunday that the food supply will never be rid of the new strain of corn that the company genetically engineered at Research Triangle Park." http://www.purefood.org/ge/starlinkforever.cfm ================================================== ================== ================================================== ================== "Genetically Modified Corn Spreading to Protected Wild Corn Despite Mexico's 3-year-old moratorium on the use of genetically altered corn, scientists have detected genetically modified DNA in wild maize in the mountains of the state of Oaxaca. Wayward genes from genetically modified corn that is widely grown in Canada and the United States are spreading in remote mountainous regions of Mexico. Up to 70% of wild Mexican maize now carries transgenes that could only have come from genetically engineered crops. The transgenes, which scientists borrow from viruses and bacteria, have been engineered into GM crops." Nature November 29, 2001;414:541-543 http://www.mercola.com/2001/dec/12/gm_corn.htm ================================================== ===================== If you are going to use arguments use ones that you don't loose at the onset with proven facts. Gordon I just used proven facts. --Hua Kul |
Paying to find non-GE wild corn?
"Brian Sandle" wrote in message ... Jim Webster wrote: Why would estrogenic compounds have nothing to do with estrogenic pasture? you asked about the effects of estrogenic pasture on cattle, you have shown no evidence that there is such an effect I asked you as one farmer whether you have noticed anything. Zearalenone is a mycotoxin produced by the fungus Fusarium. To my knowledge this mycotoxin is not produced in red clover. The fungus is a cereal pathogen and consequently zearalenone is found in wheat, barley and corn. Dave Have you ever had cows on red clover to any extent? Then have you noticed any affect on them? Or the estrogenic mycotoxin zearallenone? Don't some farmers use it as a steroid to increase growth of animals? I think I posted how it reduces fertility. |
Paying to find non-GE wild corn?
"Brian Sandle" wrote in message ... Gordon Couger wrote: "ddwyer" wrote in message ... In article , Moosh:] writes Thanks Gordon, good point. Not thet there's much more we can do about it than what we are doing. If you want to convert a sheep or a bacteria to produce a bioactive material such as a protein as a theraputic agent the way foreward is not to breed or mutate but GM a species. I.e. create a self replicating factory. GM food has the potential to generate unwanted materials that mutation and breeding cannot. Unwanted material in foodstuffs will be the rare hazard that we wont recognise until too late. Sadly whole populations will consume; not just the ill for whom the risk would ba acceptable. Due to testing in GM food stuffs we are much less likely to get unintended hazards in food stuffs than we are in in normally bred food stuffs. To my knowledge they only test people with protein that they expect the GM plant to make. The actual plant could have the engineered promoters switching on other genes, causing troubles you would not be looking for. Can you please give a real example where a promoter that controls a specific gene switches to turn on other genes? Thanks. Dave When the tryptophan from GE sources killed some people it might not have been discovered if the symptoms were similar to some other lethal but fairly common disease. I can list several cases of food stuffs that case harm bred with conventional methods an you can't list a single one with GM methods. They get withdrawn if they cause trouble that is plain obvious. If you are going to use arguments use ones that you don't loose at the onset with proven facts. He means the promoters switching on unexpected gene expression in some conditions. |
Paying to find non-GE wild corn?
"Brian Sandle" wrote in message ... In sci.med.nutrition David Kendra wrote: "Brian Sandle" wrote in message ... In sci.med.nutrition Gordon Couger wrote: "Brian Sandle" wrote in message ... In sci.med.nutrition Moosh:] wrote: On 19 Jul 2003 04:05:43 GMT, Brian Sandle wrote: And if you don't want to catch an illness, keep away from the source,if you know what it is. How far away is labelling of GM ingredientsin corn chips, herrings in tomato sauce, chocolate &c &c? Logically, as far away as labelling that a random mutation happened in the corn field. No because the sorts of mutations which nature has learnt to allow to multiply are ones beneficial to itself. The `junk' genes which can later help the plant relate to stress are tested over the thousands of years. Nature has learnt to keep a strict order in the genome. The GM process defeats that. Many people are saying that drug resistance markers should have ceased being used, or never started. With all the random mutations we caused by intentional radiation and chemical mutigens that I can still buy across the counter that are in virtually every variety of every crop out there you worry about one or two genes that were carefully studied and then checked buy the breeders, USDA and in some cases the EPA. The genes were not checked. What genes were not checked? Genes used to make GE plants such as Roundup Ready soybeans and Bt corn? If you answer yes to that, then you are indeed wrong. There was considerable study and gene mapping of these introduced genes. Yes. Now engineers in any field, mechanical or electrical or anything, know that what theory says is not always what works. There is a lot of trial and error and practical theories are continually improved. How about providing some concrete examples with GE foods to prove your point. Moving the parts on a computer motherboard might stop it from being so fast, or make it unstable. Just electric network theory may be severely lacking. When you introduce a gene you also introduce a promoter not necessarily. some people "fish" for promoters by introducing a selectable marker and looking for gene product. and the process is a bit hit and miss. It has been found that the characterization of Rounup Ready soy was rather inexact. How about the current versions of RR soybeans? The promoter, when strong, may not just switch on the gene next to it, but also ones further along. Only if they are co-regulated. Please provide examples where this is the case with GE products. Thanks. And it may not do that until certain conditions of stress come up. Heat, drought, cold, other herbicides or pesticides which are later found necessary. The theories are not good enough to predict it all. Such blanket statements apply for all genes. We know that heat shock genes down regulates a wide variety of genes in plant and animal species so you your point is what? Dave Dave What was checked was the substance the genes were *intended* to make the plant produce. What was not able to be dealt with was the strong promoters needed to make the genes switch on and do their work. Those promoters are going radomly into the genome and are near other genes as well, causing them to possibly switch on, too, with who knows what effects. In the past and it is sill the practice for crops treated with mutigens there is no testing or oversight on a process that you have no idea what you have changed you just take what looks good and breed it back dragging along who knows what kind of hidden mutation along with it. But you are leaving it to the plant to do the organisation after it is damaged. You are not specifically implanting genes to outwit the natural scheme of adjustment. |
Paying to find non-GE wild corn?
Just in passing phytoestrogen effects in livestock are not unknown. Sheep with a tup fed on clover-rich swards fail to ovulate and breeding can be seriously affected or even prevented. This has been known for decades. It has been postulated that phytoestogens in soya (rather high) are responsible for unpredicted increases in weight gains in pigs, effectively a natural application of hormones (see growth promoters). -- Oz This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious. Note: soon (maybe already) only posts via despammed.com will be accepted. |
Paying to find non-GE wild corn?
David Kendra wrote:
"Brian Sandle" wrote in message ... Jim Webster wrote: Why would estrogenic compounds have nothing to do with estrogenic pasture? you asked about the effects of estrogenic pasture on cattle, you have shown no evidence that there is such an effect I asked you as one farmer whether you have noticed anything. Zearalenone is a mycotoxin produced by the fungus Fusarium. To my knowledge this mycotoxin is not produced in red clover. The fungus is a cereal pathogen and consequently zearalenone is found in wheat, barley and corn. It is sometimes fed to animals to increase their growth. The estrogenic compounds in clover include genistein, same as one in soy. Note clover is Genista. Dave Have you ever had cows on red clover to any extent? Then have you noticed any affect on them? Or the estrogenic mycotoxin zearallenone? Don't some farmers use it as a steroid to increase growth of animals? I think I posted how it reduces fertility. My question is whether the extra estrogenic nature of GM-produced animal feed causes any changes in the developing embryo, or fetus, in a similar fashion to what other estrogenic foods do. |
Paying to find non-GE wild corn?
"Brian Sandle" wrote in message ... Jim Webster wrote: Why would estrogenic compounds have nothing to do with estrogenic pasture? you asked about the effects of estrogenic pasture on cattle, you have shown no evidence that there is such an effect I asked you as one farmer whether you have noticed anything. Have you ever had cows on red clover to any extent? Then have you noticed any affect on them? I have heard of no problems in the UK with this Or the estrogenic mycotoxin zearallenone? Don't some farmers use it as a steroid to increase growth of animals? Not legally in the EU Jim Webster |
Paying to find non-GE wild corn?
"Brian Sandle" wrote in message ... Jim Webster wrote: "Brian Sandle" wrote in message ... That is what I was trying to convey. It is subtle since if you kill all of your hosts you die, too. There must be some of that knowledge in the genome, too. no, it is purely a matter of categorisation on our part. Diseases kill their hosts, parasites don't necessarily. It is our labelling, not anything the organism is doing Viruses don't even multiply without a host. I presume you look up your memory bank to remind yourself how to keep alive. Do not kill every last host. If there is stress start swopping genes faster. what memory bank? The `junk DNA'. so you don't know Where is there any evidence of this. I think you are getting carried away with the classifications again. If you run out of hosts you just find more Jump species? You would have to do that before you killed every last one of the previous species. which isn't a problem, those who prey on only one species are very much a minority Jim Webster |
Paying to find non-GE wild corn?
"Brian Sandle" wrote in message ... Jim Webster wrote: "Brian Sandle" wrote in message ... In sci.med.nutrition Gordon Couger wrote: But as Jim admitted there is no drug that could cure his father's MRSA (methicillin resistant Staphylococcus aureus). It had to be left to nature to take its course with some nursing care (soap and water and bandages). Jim did no such thing I might not have made it clear.. Jims father was too weak for the drugs but didn't need them anyway because the bacteria were taken out with an antiseptic wash (which will contain bacterialcides) and soap and water. The drugs were offered but he couldn't handle them What drugs? Here they said soap and water, that is a few years ago. Plus everyone going near the infected people had to wear protective gear. I don't know. They tried him on the standard antiboitics for dealing with MRSA but after two days they had to take them off him because his appetitie had totally gone and he was being permenantly sick. So they switched to the antiseptic wash Jim Webster |
Paying to find non-GE wild corn?
On 23 Jul 2003 05:41:47 GMT, Brian Sandle
wrote: David Kendra wrote: Zearalenone is a mycotoxin produced by the fungus Fusarium. To my knowledge this mycotoxin is not produced in red clover. The fungus is a cereal pathogen and consequently zearalenone is found in wheat, barley and corn. I can't see why zearalenone could not be produced by Fusarium in red clover hay, but you are right it is most commonly found in grain, notably corn. It is sometimes fed to animals to increase their growth. That's not quite right, I think, but the anabolic substance, or 'beef hormone' you are probably thinking of, common name "Zeranol", might exist in metabolic relationship with zearalenone in animals fed zearalenone-contaminated feed stuffs. Another name for the beef hormone Zeranol is alpha-zearalanol, it differs chemically from zearalenone by the absence of a double bond and the reduction of a ketone group to hydroxyl in the large lactonic ring of the general bicyclic structure of the 'zeranol-group' of compounds. Pharmacologically zeranol differs from zearalenone by having higher estrogenic activity, indeed in some tests it has been found to be as potent as high potency synthetics like (infamous) diethylstilbestrol and ethinyl estradiol. The use of zeranol is banned in production of meat in the EU, because the EU as a matter of principle does not license the use of meat production aids which pose carcinogenic/mutagenic risks to consumers. In e.g. renegade USA such risks to consumers are accepted, and zeranol is widely used in beef production there. The estrogenic compounds in clover include genistein, same as one in soy. Note clover is Genista. Dave Have you ever had cows on red clover to any extent? Then have you noticed any affect on them? Or the estrogenic mycotoxin zearallenone? Don't some farmers use it as a steroid to increase growth of animals? I think I posted how it reduces fertility. My question is whether the extra estrogenic nature of GM-produced animal feed causes any changes in the developing embryo, or fetus, in a similar fashion to what other estrogenic foods do. My first question would be if there is an extra estrogenic nature of GM-produced animal feed. But, it would seem prudent to be open to the possibility that some genetic engineering events in e.g. soy might unintendedly result in elevated levels of phytoestrogens, or phytoestrogen profile changes. |
Paying to find non-GE wild corn?
----- Original Message ----- From: "Torsten Brinch" Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition,nz.general,sci.agriculture Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2003 9:52 AM Subject: Paying to find non-GE wild corn? : On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 09:31:21 GMT, "Gordon Couger" : wrote: : : Due to testing in GM food stuffs we are much less likely to get unintended : hazards in food stuffs than we are in in normally bred food stuffs. I can : list several cases of food stuffs that case harm bred with conventional : methods an you can't list a single one with GM methods. : : It is not clear which testing you are referring to -- somewhat linked : to it being unclear what you mean by 'food stuffs'. Maybe you meant to : write 'varieties'? : : But then your argument would seem to assume that GM methods are not : used in combination with conventional breeding methods. Which they : are, and which I know that you know that they are. : : Or, it assumes that unintended food hazards from the conventional : breeding methods involved are being tested for in GM varieties, but : not in non-GM varieties of the same crop species -- and that you can : name several such comparable non-GM varieties that cause harm because : they were not similarly tested from the outset. : : And, that, I - erm - might well not think that you can. TO make things : worse, were you to be inable to name them, that would put you in an : awkward position with your argument, since in any given crop species : that have GM varieties used for food currently, you would have had : vastly more non-GM varieties to pick your alleged harm-causers from, : than your opponent would have had GM-varieties. : : So, perhaps better; can I ask you to rephrase your argument, please. : Your free to ask anything you want. You can hold your breath until I do it and see how blue you turn. There is the case of the organic zucchini squash that had such high levels of natural pesticides that it was harmful to humans. Bred by organic farmer saving the seed the fared the best ageist the bugs. There are several chili pepper that are not save to pick by hand because the dust can cause serious inflation of the eyes, lungs and sinuses. One cotton variety was bred to be insect resistant that turned out to have levels of gossypol in the cotton seed cake too high for safety. A celery was bread that caused dermatitis in the pickers before mechanical picking While not a breeding problem an organic hydroponic operation use Temic on cucumbers which is strictly against label use and injured some people. Showing not only the dishonesty but the stupidity of some organic producers. That try to hold their product up as the standard for GM crops to match. There have many more tons of GM crops that use GM methods shipped an consumed in the last few year than there have organic crops in the last 20 years and I can find plenty of problems far less organic food than you can many time the amount of GM food. Gordon |
Paying to find non-GE wild corn?
"Hua Kul" wrote in message om... "Gordon Couger" wrote in message ... "ddwyer" wrote in message ... In article , Moosh:] writes Thanks Gordon, good point. Not thet there's much more we can do about it than what we are doing. If you want to convert a sheep or a bacteria to produce a bioactive material such as a protein as a theraputic agent the way foreward is not to breed or mutate but GM a species. I.e. create a self replicating factory. GM food has the potential to generate unwanted materials that mutation and breeding cannot. Unwanted material in foodstuffs will be the rare hazard that we wont recognise until too late. Sadly whole populations will consume; not just the ill for whom the risk would ba acceptable. Due to testing in GM food stuffs we are much less likely to get unintended hazards in food stuffs than we are in in normally bred food stuffs. Another naif who seems to believe that governments and their regulations will save us. It was a British government regulation requiring cattle to be heavily dosed with organophosphate pesticides which may have triggered the BSE outbreak. See Mark Purdy's research. An out break that effects 120 peoples and 600,000 cows. Those are similar to the deaths by lighting over the same period in the south west US. Why don't you do something about he deaths from TB, whooping cough and preventable diseases that are killing people in the UK that can be control for a fraction of the cost of the news on BSE in a week. Gordon |
Paying to find non-GE wild corn?
David Kendra wrote:
"Brian Sandle" wrote in message ... Epithelial cells. It looks like the whole article is free to read: Linkname: J. Bact -- Ferguson et al. 184 (8): 2235 URL: http://jb.asm.org/cgi/content/full/1...&pmid=11914355 size: 947 lines The cells are artificially cultured in vitro. How do they compare to true non-dividing epithelial cells? Thanks. I thought the epithelial cells, such as line the gut, would be frequently dividing. Search for Schubbert R for some info on the fate of the foreign DNA. |
Paying to find non-GE wild corn?
"Brian Sandle" wrote in message ... David Kendra wrote: "Brian Sandle" wrote in message ... Jim Webster wrote: Why would estrogenic compounds have nothing to do with estrogenic pasture? you asked about the effects of estrogenic pasture on cattle, you have shown no evidence that there is such an effect I asked you as one farmer whether you have noticed anything. Zearalenone is a mycotoxin produced by the fungus Fusarium. To my knowledge this mycotoxin is not produced in red clover. The fungus is a cereal pathogen and consequently zearalenone is found in wheat, barley and corn. It is sometimes fed to animals to increase their growth. The estrogenic compounds in clover include genistein, same as one in soy. Note clover is Genista. Dave Have you ever had cows on red clover to any extent? Then have you noticed any affect on them? Or the estrogenic mycotoxin zearallenone? Don't some farmers use it as a steroid to increase growth of animals? I think I posted how it reduces fertility. My question is whether the extra estrogenic nature of GM-produced animal feed causes any changes in the developing embryo, or fetus, in a similar fashion to what other estrogenic foods do. I suppose this data is already available since many animal feeds already contain GE products. The fact that no one is making a fuss would suggest that the products perform similarly to their non-GE counterparts - which is as would be expected since they are isogenic. Dave |
Paying to find non-GE wild corn?
"Brian Sandle" wrote in message ... David Kendra wrote: "Brian Sandle" wrote in message ... Epithelial cells. It looks like the whole article is free to read: Linkname: J. Bact -- Ferguson et al. 184 (8): 2235 URL: http://jb.asm.org/cgi/content/full/1...&pmid=11914355 size: 947 lines The cells are artificially cultured in vitro. How do they compare to true non-dividing epithelial cells? Thanks. I thought the epithelial cells, such as line the gut, would be frequently dividing. The epithelial cells in our guts do in deed divide albeit at a slower rate than in vitro culture. Perhaps more importantly they are sluffed off after a period of time as part of the natural process. Cells in culture can survive for extended periods of time as long as fresh media is added and toxic metabolites removed. Search for Schubbert R for some info on the fate of the foreign DNA. I am well aware of work on foreign DNA. It is a natural process that takes place all the time - so in essence, ALL DNA is GE!!!! What is your take on this work? Dave Dave |
Paying to find non-GE wild corn?
On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 09:46:40 GMT, "Gordon Couger"
wrote: From: "Torsten Brinch" : On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 09:31:21 GMT, "Gordon Couger" : wrote: : : Due to testing in GM food stuffs we are much less likely to get : unintended hazards in food stuffs than we are in in normally bred : food stuffs .. : : It is not clear which testing you are referring to -- somewhat linked : to it being unclear what you mean by 'food stuffs'. Maybe you meant to : write 'varieties'? .. can I ask you to rephrase your argument, please. : Your free to ask anything you want. You can hold your breath until I do it and see how blue you turn. snip But, a request for clarification would not return mere rudeness, assuming you mean to be taken seriously. |
Paying to find non-GE wild corn?
Hua Kul writes
Another naif who seems to believe that governments and their regulations will save us. It was a British government regulation requiring cattle to be heavily dosed with organophosphate pesticides which may have triggered the BSE outbreak. See Mark Purdy's research. Mark Purdy is an ignorant political organic farmer who rightly went to jail for not dosing his cows to eradicate warbles, despite it being approved by organic organisations. His 'theory' is rubbish. Do a google search on "oz purdy bse" and you will be able to find various threads. -- Oz This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious. Note: soon (maybe already) only posts via despammed.com will be accepted. |
Paying to find non-GE wild corn?
David Kendra wrote:
"Brian Sandle" wrote in message ... David Kendra wrote: "Brian Sandle" wrote in message ... Epithelial cells. It looks like the whole article is free to read: Linkname: J. Bact -- Ferguson et al. 184 (8): 2235 URL: http://jb.asm.org/cgi/content/full/1...&pmid=11914355 size: 947 lines The cells are artificially cultured in vitro. How do they compare to true non-dividing epithelial cells? Thanks. I thought the epithelial cells, such as line the gut, would be frequently dividing. The epithelial cells in our guts do in deed divide albeit at a slower rate than in vitro culture. Perhaps more importantly they are sluffed off after a period of time as part of the natural process. So have to divide quickly to be replacing. Cells in culture can survive for extended periods of time as long as fresh media is added and toxic metabolites removed. So first you complain there is a difference because you say they are not living long, then you complain because you say they are living long. Much bigger differences in GM food. Search for Schubbert R for some info on the fate of the foreign DNA. I am well aware of work on foreign DNA. It is a natural process that takes place all the time So do you or do you not believe foreign DNA is brken down in the gut? - so in essence, ALL DNA is GE!!!! DNA varies, but GE DNA cheats. What is your take on this work? U.S. National Library of Medicine Gateway On the fate of orally ingested foreign DNA in mice: chromosomal association and placental transmission to the fetus. Schubbert R, Hohlweg U, Renz D, Doerfler W. Mol Gen Genet. 1998 Oct;259(6):569-76. Institute of Genetics, University of Cologne, Koeln, Germany. We have previously shown that, when administered orally to mice, bacteriophage M13 DNA, as a paradigm foreign DNA without homology to the mouse genome, can persist in fragmented form in the gastrointestinal tract, penetrate the intestinal wall, and reach the nuclei of leukocytes, spleen and liver cells. Similar results were obtained when a plasmid containing the gene for the green fluorescent protein (pEGFP-C1) was fed to mice. In spleen, the foreign DNA was detected in covalent linkage to DNA with a high degree of homology to mouse genes, perhaps pseudogenes, or to authentic E. coli DNA. We have now extended these studies to the offspring of mice that were fed regularly during pregnancy with a daily dose of 50 microg of M13 or pEGFP-C1 DNA. Using the polymerase chain reaction (PCR) or the fluorescent in situ hybridization (FISH) method, foreign DNA, orally ingested by pregnant mice, can be discovered in various organs of fetuses and of newborn animals. The M13 DNA fragments have a length of about 830 bp. In various organs of the mouse fetus, clusters of cells contain foreign DNA as revealed by FISH. The foreign DNA is invariably located in the nuclei. We have never found all cells of the fetus to be transgenic for the foreign DNA. This distribution pattern argues for a transplacental pathway rather than for germline transmission which might be expected only after long-time feeding regimens. In rare cells of three different fetuses, whose mothers have been fed with M 13 DNA during gestation, the foreign DNA was detected by FISH in association with both chromatids. Is maternally ingested foreign DNA a potential mutagen for the developing fetus? And I bet if there is any more info on this it will be unlikely to get published easily. Who goes out bragging about their troubles? |
Paying to find non-GE wild corn?
Jim Webster wrote:
"Brian Sandle" wrote in message ... Jim Webster wrote: "Brian Sandle" wrote in message ... That is what I was trying to convey. It is subtle since if you kill all of your hosts you die, too. There must be some of that knowledge in the genome, too. no, it is purely a matter of categorisation on our part. Diseases kill their hosts, parasites don't necessarily. It is our labelling, not anything the organism is doing Viruses don't even multiply without a host. I presume you look up your memory bank to remind yourself how to keep alive. Do not kill every last host. If there is stress start swopping genes faster. what memory bank? The `junk DNA'. so you don't know So you don't read Moosh:]'s articles, I have to economize somehwe **** From: "Moosh:]" Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition,nz.general,sci.agriculture Subject: Paying to find non-GE wild corn? Message-ID: Lines: 89 Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 11:54:52 GMT [...] In the junk DNA there is just about everything that has been tried, if it hasn't been harmlessly corrupted over the aeons. [...] **** Where is there any evidence of this. I think you are getting carried away with the classifications again. If you run out of hosts you just find more Jump species? You would have to do that before you killed every last one of the previous species. which isn't a problem, those who prey on only one species are very much a minority Lots of viruses tend to be specific to certain classes of hosts. Calici haemorrhagic disease jumped to rabbits in 1970s in China, though I don't know why. Using pig organs in humans in concert with GM is a risk that pig viruses will jump and spread through the human population. |
Paying to find non-GE wild corn?
"Brian Sandle" wrote in message ... Where is there any evidence of this. I think you are getting carried away with the classifications again. If you run out of hosts you just find more Jump species? You would have to do that before you killed every last one of the previous species. which isn't a problem, those who prey on only one species are very much a minority Lots of viruses tend to be specific to certain classes of hosts. yes, classes of hosts are normally groups of species Calici haemorrhagic disease jumped to rabbits in 1970s in China, though I don't know why. it is comparatively regular occurrance. I don't think I have heard of a single virus, bacteria or other parasite which has become extinct due to the extinction of its sole prey species. Jim Webster |
Paying to find non-GE wild corn?
"Oz" wrote in message ... Hua Kul writes Another naif who seems to believe that governments and their regulations will save us. It was a British government regulation requiring cattle to be heavily dosed with organophosphate pesticides which may have triggered the BSE outbreak. See Mark Purdy's research. Mark Purdy is an ignorant political organic farmer who rightly went to jail for not dosing his cows to eradicate warbles, despite it being approved by organic organisations. His 'theory' is rubbish. Do a google search on "oz purdy bse" and you will be able to find various threads. Had organophosphates caused it or fairies dancing ainti clockwise on the dark of a blue moon BSE is still no more than a fart in a hurricane in the problems of world health. Gordon |
Paying to find non-GE wild corn?
On 21 Jul 2003 12:09:43 GMT, Brian Sandle
wrote: But you are leaving it to the plant to do the organisation after it is damaged. You are not specifically implanting genes to outwit the natural scheme of adjustment. You believe in Gaea? |
Paying to find non-GE wild corn?
On 21 Jul 2003 12:01:49 GMT, Brian Sandle
wrote: It is subtle since if you kill all of your hosts you die, too. There must be some of that knowledge in the genome, too. No, it's just a survival artifact. Those that don't have the luck to cop a survival mutation die out. Only those lucky enough to mutate not to kill out all the hosts survive. Because bacteria can exchange genes to their advantage in the protected environment of a human cell it is necessary to take more care with drug resistance genes. We should not be feeding drug resistance genes to people en masse, not checking up with control groups if it is triggering anything. Do bacteria have a special licence from Nature so they can do their own thing and not need to obey Natures instructions about strict order in the genome? Where do you apply for this licence? I presume you look up your memory bank to remind yourself how to keep alive. Do not kill every last host. If there is stress start swopping genes faster. Gene swapping is done as fast as it CAN be done. There is NO intent. |
Paying to find non-GE wild corn?
On Mon, 21 Jul 2003 23:20:12 +0100, ddwyer
wrote: In article , Moosh:] writes Thanks Gordon, good point. Not thet there's much more we can do about it than what we are doing. If you want to convert a sheep or a bacteria to produce a bioactive material such as a protein as a theraputic agent the way foreward is not to breed or mutate but GM a species. I.e. create a self replicating factory. GM food has the potential to generate unwanted materials that mutation and breeding cannot. Of course. The difference is that GM gives us much more control, than the much more random cross-pollinating. Unwanted material in foodstuffs will be the rare hazard that we wont recognise until too late. But it is much more likelly from cross pollinating or even new random mutations, than GM. Sadly whole populations will consume; not just the ill for whom the risk would ba acceptable. You are talking about engineering threapeutic substances into foods for all? I think this is probably not the best way to go. Unless it is for an epidemic, or has clear public health benefits, like water fluoridation. |
Paying to find non-GE wild corn?
Moosh:] wrote:
On 21 Jul 2003 12:09:43 GMT, Brian Sandle wrote: But you are leaving it to the plant to do the organisation after it is damaged. You are not specifically implanting genes to outwit the natural scheme of adjustment. You believe in Gaea? More like what I posted recently: Fritjof Capra already in 1996 reports about Kauffman (1993): `sytems biologists have begun to portray the genome as a self-organizing network capable of spontaneously producing new forms of order. "We must rethink evolutionary biology," writes Stuart Kauffman. "Much of the order we see in organisms may be the direct result not of natural selection but of the natural order selection was allowed to act on... Evolution is not just a tinkering ... It is an emergent order honored and honed by selection."' So if survival in the past had come about through mutating more when under stress, then that would happen again under stress. I think that is accepted. And anyway it is hard to tell that sort of thing from a Gaia if there is one. What was the origin of the first enzymes? |
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