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Old 25-07-2003, 07:02 PM
Hua Kul
 
Posts: n/a
Default Paying to find non-GE wild corn?

"Gordon Couger" wrote in message ...
"Oz" wrote in message
...
Hua Kul writes

Another naif who seems to believe that governments and their
regulations will save us. It was a British government regulation
requiring cattle to be heavily dosed with organophosphate pesticides
which may have triggered the BSE outbreak. See Mark Purdy's research.


Had organophosphates caused it or fairies dancing ainti clockwise on the
dark of a blue moon BSE is still no more than a fart in a hurricane in the
problems of world health.

Gordon


You missed my point, which was that government actions (regarding
*anything*, and no matter how well intentioned) can't be relied upon
to protect us from much of anything, as you seemed to imply by your
vague "testing" post.

You still haven't addressed my larger point, posted in response to
your challenge, that the pharmaceutical industries are intent upon
using elements of our food production systems not to improve the food
but to contaminate it for the purpose of increasing their profits, and
the demonstrated danger in that being the total contamination of an
entire crop globally, as is happening with Monsanto's Starlink GM
corn. To me that one example is enough to totally prohibit any GM
changes, with the possibe exception of those changes that actually
improve the nutrition, safety, or yield of the crop.

--Hua Kul
  #122   Report Post  
Old 25-07-2003, 08:22 PM
Jim Webster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Paying to find non-GE wild corn?


"Brian Sandle" wrote in message
...
In sci.med.nutrition Jim Webster wrote:
utterly irrelevent
he was too weak to take any antibiotic


That vomiting is one of the listed side effects of linezolid, a drug now
used against MRSA. You don't have to be feeble to be taken off it.

Did he use to be able to tolerate the `...cillin' drugs?


Read what I said, he was too was to take any antibiotic




So they switched to the
antiseptic wash

Which they probably use anyway, linezolid or not?

I suppose they will claim linezolid is no worse than any other, but

it
is
better to have more in the arsenal isn't it? Then say do genetic

testing
and do not prescribe by trial and error. Try not to eliminate your

choices
by feeding everybody with GM antibiotic resistance genes, especially

when
we know that DNA is not fully deactivated by digestion, and is also
getting to the unborn.

what total twaddle. As bacteria have far more antibiotic resistant

genes
than GM crops,

They bacteria may have a few more types, if they have been selected by
anitbiotics, but the crop has it in every cell, so far
more altogether, and constantly present.


no, start thinking carefully
all food has bacteria so you eat it with every meal.


Varying amounts, healthy food stops bacteria growing in itself.


Have you any actual evidence for this bizarre statement! And even if it
does, you inhale and swallow bacteria with every mouthful of food.


There
might be some on the surface. But GM food has it all the way through, in
every cell.


So what, it is one know GM, as opposed to millions upon millions of
different, possibly unique bacteria


Each meal with contain
bacteria resistant to antibiotics we haven't even developed yet but are

used
in nature, bacteria resistant to antibiotics that are so old that they

are
no longer used


It is not the age which stops them being used. It is when they don't work
or are too toxic.


Rubbish again. We have seen on our own farm old drugs come back into
usefulness because there were no longer bacteria about which were resistant
to them.


and bacteria more resistant than their fellows to heavy
metals, UV, and for all I know tedium.


Yes, as I posted from Heinemann they learn


learn, is this a night school course, or a full university course? Please
stop using anthropomorphic phrases which don't actually mean anything

under antibiotic selection to
do stress adaptation. If the antibiotic resistance genes are present they
will make use of them.

With GM, firstly not every meal contains GM DNA,


Except if you eat corn most meals.


Exactly, as I said, with GM not every meal contains GM DNA


Snip

you have two choices.


pay enough to make growing conventional worth while


or


eat GM


choice is entirely yours


Or persuade people they are being ripped off, made into serfs, having
their tax used to subsidise research into such activities.


If you hadn't been ripping them off over conventional crops they wouldn't
have had to turn to GM in the first place!

Jim Webster


  #123   Report Post  
Old 25-07-2003, 08:22 PM
Jim Webster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Paying to find non-GE wild corn?


"Oz" wrote in message
...
Jim Webster writes

round here you can wait weeks for the afternoon sun. Haven't seen it

since
Monday


IT'S RAINING HERE!!!!!

Maybe 3mm (1/10") since yesterday!

Yippppeeee!!!!

If it stops by monday, that will be nice.

I seem to remember you reporting no sight of the sun for three months
once, although you did report the odd rainless day.


we can get months like that, certainly the back end of 2000/2001 was grim,
we didn't have two consecutive days without rain

Jim Webster


--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.
Note: soon (maybe already) only posts via despammed.com will be accepted.



  #124   Report Post  
Old 26-07-2003, 10:35 AM
Gordon Couger
 
Posts: n/a
Default Paying to find non-GE wild corn?


"Jim Webster" wrote in message
...

"Oz" wrote in message
...
Jim Webster writes

round here you can wait weeks for the afternoon sun. Haven't seen it

since
Monday


IT'S RAINING HERE!!!!!

Maybe 3mm (1/10") since yesterday!

Yippppeeee!!!!

If it stops by monday, that will be nice.

I seem to remember you reporting no sight of the sun for three months
once, although you did report the odd rainless day.


we can get months like that, certainly the back end of 2000/2001 was grim,
we didn't have two consecutive days without rain

I don't have to mow the grass anymore because it quit growing. I am watering
the foundation around the house to keep it from cracking and the trees less
than 5 years old to keep then from dying.

Gordon


  #125   Report Post  
Old 26-07-2003, 11:12 AM
Oz
 
Posts: n/a
Default Paying to find non-GE wild corn?

Gordon Couger writes
I don't have to mow the grass anymore because it quit growing. I am watering
the foundation around the house to keep it from cracking and the trees less
than 5 years old to keep then from dying.


I suspect you may have a problem with jim's climate.

Probably never gets hotter than 25C or colder than 0C (OK, maybe
transiently), and rains most days, sun seen occasionally.

Sun probably sets 11.00PM around midsummer and 3.00PM around midwinter.

Grass grows like sugarcane in summer.
Even grows quite a bit in winter.

It's a rare month indeed when transpiration exceeds precipitation.

--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.
Note: soon (maybe already) only posts via despammed.com will be accepted.



  #126   Report Post  
Old 26-07-2003, 12:22 PM
Oz
 
Posts: n/a
Default Paying to find non-GE wild corn?

Gordon Couger writes

"Oz" wrote in message

I suspect you may have a problem with jim's climate.

It's a rare month indeed when transpiration exceeds precipitation.


I wouldn't know what to do with that. I just want to get wells dug that make
enough water that I don't care if it rains.


Jim just want's field drains and ditches that can take it away quickly..

--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.
Note: soon (maybe already) only posts via despammed.com will be accepted.

  #127   Report Post  
Old 26-07-2003, 09:02 PM
Gordon Couger
 
Posts: n/a
Default Paying to find non-GE wild corn?


"Oz" wrote in message
...
Gordon Couger writes

"Oz" wrote in message

I suspect you may have a problem with jim's climate.

It's a rare month indeed when transpiration exceeds precipitation.


I wouldn't know what to do with that. I just want to get wells dug that

make
enough water that I don't care if it rains.


Jim just want's field drains and ditches that can take it away quickly..

There is no shortage of rain just a destitution problem.

Gordon


  #128   Report Post  
Old 26-07-2003, 11:42 PM
Jim Webster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Paying to find non-GE wild corn?


"Oz" wrote in message
...
Gordon Couger writes

"Oz" wrote in message

I suspect you may have a problem with jim's climate.

It's a rare month indeed when transpiration exceeds precipitation.


I wouldn't know what to do with that. I just want to get wells dug that

make
enough water that I don't care if it rains.


Jim just want's field drains and ditches that can take it away quickly..

--


yes, I have land that I will not take cattle on between October and March,
even though I can silage it in May.
I do find it fascinating reading when everyone is discussing the advantages
of no-till and struggling to retain soil moisture, round here ploughing is
used to dry the land out a bit. You plough and let the sun and wind take
away some of the moisture so you can get a tilth.

Funny old world

Jim Webster


  #129   Report Post  
Old 27-07-2003, 07:32 AM
Brian Sandle
 
Posts: n/a
Default Paying to find non-GE wild corn?

Jim Webster wrote:

"Oz" wrote in message
...
Gordon Couger writes

"Oz" wrote in message

I suspect you may have a problem with jim's climate.

It's a rare month indeed when transpiration exceeds precipitation.

I wouldn't know what to do with that. I just want to get wells dug that

make
enough water that I don't care if it rains.


Jim just want's field drains and ditches that can take it away quickly..

--


yes, I have land that I will not take cattle on between October and March,
even though I can silage it in May.
I do find it fascinating reading when everyone is discussing the advantages
of no-till and struggling to retain soil moisture, round here ploughing is
used to dry the land out a bit. You plough and let the sun and wind take
away some of the moisture so you can get a tilth.


Funny old world


What are various types of trees like at extracting water from the ground?

I suppose evergreens keep the sun off the land, but they might shelter
animals from wind.

I am thinking that the surface area of roots in contact with soil is
greater than the area exposed to wind by ploughing. Then the leaves
contact the wind. Also the trees could be a crop.

You could plant several types of trees, each working better in slightly
different conditions. Diversity is much better against troubles. You can
have the diversity within each farm, or else you use the govt to buffer
against loss as with BSE, or both. I hate to think who will bear the brunt
of troubles with the huge GM reduced diversity scheme.
  #130   Report Post  
Old 27-07-2003, 09:34 AM
Jim Webster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Paying to find non-GE wild corn?


"Brian Sandle" wrote in message
...
Jim Webster wrote:

"Oz" wrote in message
...
Gordon Couger writes

"Oz" wrote in message

I suspect you may have a problem with jim's climate.

It's a rare month indeed when transpiration exceeds precipitation.

I wouldn't know what to do with that. I just want to get wells dug

that
make
enough water that I don't care if it rains.

Jim just want's field drains and ditches that can take it away

quickly..

--


yes, I have land that I will not take cattle on between October and

March,
even though I can silage it in May.
I do find it fascinating reading when everyone is discussing the

advantages
of no-till and struggling to retain soil moisture, round here ploughing

is
used to dry the land out a bit. You plough and let the sun and wind take
away some of the moisture so you can get a tilth.


Funny old world


What are various types of trees like at extracting water from the ground?

I suppose evergreens keep the sun off the land, but they might shelter
animals from wind.

I am thinking that the surface area of roots in contact with soil is
greater than the area exposed to wind by ploughing. Then the leaves
contact the wind. Also the trees could be a crop.

You could plant several types of trees, each working better in slightly
different conditions. Diversity is much better against troubles. You can
have the diversity within each farm, or else you use the govt to buffer
against loss as with BSE, or both. I hate to think who will bear the brunt
of troubles with the huge GM reduced diversity scheme.


not in the UK, planting trees is a waste of time and is not economically
viable unless you have an awful lot of land.Plant trees here and you would
drive people off the land

Jim Webster




  #131   Report Post  
Old 27-07-2003, 10:06 AM
Oz
 
Posts: n/a
Default Paying to find non-GE wild corn?

Jim Webster writes

Some moron:
I am thinking that the surface area of roots in contact with soil is
greater than the area exposed to wind by ploughing.


Moron.
How do you grow a crop when the land is covered by trees?
The moisture loss from green grass, trees and open water is similar.
The aim is to get a top layer dry enough to work/drill.

Then the leaves
contact the wind. Also the trees could be a crop.


Not in the UK. Typically the value of small (say 1000T) of standing
timber is approximately zero. Most places the highest value sale is for
firewood.

You could plant several types of trees, each working better in slightly
different conditions.


Trees are not rates for moisture loss.

Diversity is much better against troubles.


Sometimes it is, sometimes not.
In jims case alternatives to grass are problematic.

You can
have the diversity within each farm, or else you use the govt to buffer
against loss as with BSE, or both.


Govt hates to pay farmers anything.
They paid for bse primarily for public health reasons.

I hate to think who will bear the brunt
of troubles with the huge GM reduced diversity scheme.


Que?

not in the UK, planting trees is a waste of time and is not economically
viable unless you have an awful lot of land.Plant trees here and you would
drive people off the land


Absolutely. I doubt they would grow very well given your location
anyway. If the wind didn't get them, the salt would.

--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.
Note: soon (maybe already) only posts via despammed.com will be accepted.

  #132   Report Post  
Old 27-07-2003, 10:52 AM
Brian Sandle
 
Posts: n/a
Default Paying to find non-GE wild corn?

In sci.med.nutrition Moosh:] wrote:
On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 13:36:39 +0100, "Jim Webster"
wrote:



"Brian Sandle" wrote in message
.. .


Organims including humans have learned to coexist.

Now we have to learn new lessons very fast.

Lettuce can take up E coli from soil and have it reside in the
edible portion. That E coli can have multiple drug resistance,
because of current practices.

Bacteria can exchange DNA within human cells, protected from
antibiotics, too.


so what

what has this got to do with the childish anthropomorphism of nature. It
makes as much sense as saying that Gravity has a sense of humour.


Course it does, Jim.
It is the mainstay of slapstick comedy


Indeed!

Linkname: UC Research: The life and times of the undead
URL: http://www.canterbury.ac.nz/publish/research/97/A12.htm
Last Mod: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 19:48:29 GMT
size: 108 lines


The life and times of the undead

[...]
How can our genes reproduce faster than us? When subsets of genes can
be 'swapped' between neighbouring organisms ('horizontal'
reproduction), rather than just passed to offspring ('vertical'
reproduction), they can reproduce faster than the gene sets passed
vertically. Microbes are host to an unsuspectedly enormous flux of
genes through swapping and probably so are we.

That most reproduction in the world might be horizontal rather than
vertical was not anticipated by observing reproduction of plants and
animals. This difference in reproductive styles is more than esoteric,
because by imposing an anthropomorphic bias on evolutionary mechanisms
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
humans have made an enormous medical blunder. The medical association
of disease-causing and antibiotic resistance traits of microbes with
their reproductive success, a reflection of our own biology, has been
counterproductive to attempts to cure disease. If the associations
were accurate, then making certain microbes extinct should
simultaneously remove disease and the source of resistance genes. The
spread and success of the genetic creatures despite our use of
antibiotics is evidence for a reproductive strategy that reveals ours
(vertical) as only the exception to the rule.
[...]
  #133   Report Post  
Old 27-07-2003, 10:52 AM
Brian Sandle
 
Posts: n/a
Default Paying to find non-GE wild corn?

In sci.med.nutrition Oz wrote:
Jim Webster writes


Some moron:
I am thinking that the surface area of roots in contact with soil is
greater than the area exposed to wind by ploughing.


Moron.
How do you grow a crop when the land is covered by trees?
The moisture loss from green grass, trees and open water is similar.
The aim is to get a top layer dry enough to work/drill.


If the soil is too fine - a clay - then water will not drain through it.

If the soil is such that the water will drain through it, it may still be
stopped by excess water at lower levels. Tree roots go a bit deeper and
pump out the lower water, and lower nutrients.


Then the leaves
contact the wind. Also the trees could be a crop.


Not in the UK. Typically the value of small (say 1000T) of standing
timber is approximately zero. Most places the highest value sale is for
firewood.


You don't sell all the `crops' you plant. Some are like lupin to
nitrogenate the soil.

What I am talking about is `agroforestry'. On a small dairy farm you would
not have a huge tonnage of trees, they would be widely spaced, and where
they pumped out water it would make space for adjoining water to move.

You could plant several types of trees, each working better in slightly
different conditions.


Trees are not rates for moisture loss.


Diversity is much better against troubles.


Sometimes it is, sometimes not.
In jims case alternatives to grass are problematic.


If you are gearing a farm up to sell having some specialist timber on it
might help to sell the farm. How about some spruce, pine or maple for
violin making? I don't know but maybe the growing rates would favour the
type of density of timber? I may be way off. But if you are far enough
from population can you burn your own timber for hot water &C?

You can
have the diversity within each farm, or else you use the govt to buffer
against loss as with BSE, or both.


Govt hates to pay farmers anything.
They paid for bse primarily for public health reasons.


Because the govt paid out the taxpayers should have say in how farming is
done.

I hate to think who will bear the brunt
of troubles with the huge GM reduced diversity scheme.


Que?


The GM genes are being put in a few more strains of crops, but the genetic
diversity is still low. These crops expend energy making the GM protein,
therefore have less viability.

not in the UK, planting trees is a waste of time and is not economically
viable unless you have an awful lot of land.Plant trees here and you would
drive people off the land


Absolutely. I doubt they would grow very well given your location
anyway. If the wind didn't get them, the salt would.


In New Zealand we grow macrocarpa near the sea. That is a useful timber.
The roots can be long and not too deep. A shelter belt of a few rows
produces many single stemmed trees. If they are standing alone you might
need to prune them.
  #134   Report Post  
Old 27-07-2003, 10:52 AM
Gordon Couger
 
Posts: n/a
Default Paying to find non-GE wild corn?


"Brian Sandle" wrote in message
...
Jim Webster wrote:

"Oz" wrote in message
...
Gordon Couger writes

"Oz" wrote in message

I suspect you may have a problem with jim's climate.

It's a rare month indeed when transpiration exceeds precipitation.

I wouldn't know what to do with that. I just want to get wells dug

that
make
enough water that I don't care if it rains.

Jim just want's field drains and ditches that can take it away

quickly..

--


yes, I have land that I will not take cattle on between October and

March,
even though I can silage it in May.
I do find it fascinating reading when everyone is discussing the

advantages
of no-till and struggling to retain soil moisture, round here ploughing

is
used to dry the land out a bit. You plough and let the sun and wind take
away some of the moisture so you can get a tilth.


Funny old world


What are various types of trees like at extracting water from the ground?

I suppose evergreens keep the sun off the land, but they might shelter
animals from wind.

I am thinking that the surface area of roots in contact with soil is
greater than the area exposed to wind by ploughing. Then the leaves
contact the wind. Also the trees could be a crop.

You could plant several types of trees, each working better in slightly
different conditions. Diversity is much better against troubles. You can
have the diversity within each farm, or else you use the govt to buffer
against loss as with BSE, or both. I hate to think who will bear the brunt
of troubles with the huge GM reduced diversity scheme.


Trees in crop and pasture land are weeds. blocking sun and using water that
grass or crops can use.

GM crops increase the biodiversity by increasing the invertebrates,
microbes, birds and other animals that are not disturbed by repeated tillage
and toxic sprays.

In my case they reduced my costs for cotton production as a land lord 50%
and the farmers 15%, reduced the chance of wind and water erosion and let
the soil build organic matter at the rate of 1% a year. www.couger.com/farm
shows the different in notil cotton and conventional till. In this case the
notil is my neighbors and conventional till is mine on an alfalfa hay meadow
that is coming out of hay and into cotton. the other 3/4 of the farm is no
till.

Like most of the detractors of modern framing you have no practical
experience faming. I have been at this 46 years and watch crops lost to
blowing sand when there was noting that could be done about it, seen the
ditches run a mile with and florescent yellow with preplant herbicide that
was striped from the fields along with 2 or 3 inches of soil in 6 inches of
rain that came in and hour. I have seen a rise come down Red River killing
every fish in the river from one of those same driving rains falling on
freshly sprayed irrigated cotton files and washing the insecticide into the
river and killing fish for 20 miles. I had a neighbor that was never quite
well again after spraying Toxiphene and berating too much of it.

I know the real risks of the way you want us to farm and the much safer and
more environmentally friendly way I can farm with GM crops. I am spending
hard money and lots of on irrigation and my part of the tech fee on the
seed. It is some of the best money I ever spent.

Go make a living farming with your method and come back and I will give your
views some credit. But all you do is spout the same tired dogma of the
ludilits that are starving people to death in India and Africa. Dream about
them tonight. I have done every thing I can to provide food for the world
while ass holes like you try to protect what every you think you are
protecting and condemn the third world to death and disease by things like
not buying produce from countries the use DDT in spite of the fact that its
use in homes will go a long way to controlling malaria out breaks.

May the ghosts of the millions that have died and will die haunt you for
your disregard of the world situation that has cause the break down in the
fight against disease in the third world and now you want to deny them the
benefits of modern agriculture as well.

Gordon


  #135   Report Post  
Old 27-07-2003, 11:43 AM
Jim Webster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Paying to find non-GE wild corn?


"Brian Sandle" wrote in message
...
In sci.med.nutrition Oz wrote:
Jim Webster writes


Some moron:
I am thinking that the surface area of roots in contact with soil is
greater than the area exposed to wind by ploughing.


Moron.
How do you grow a crop when the land is covered by trees?
The moisture loss from green grass, trees and open water is similar.
The aim is to get a top layer dry enough to work/drill.


If the soil is too fine - a clay - then water will not drain through it.


That is why we have field drains, some of them over a thousand years old.


If the soil is such that the water will drain through it, it may still be
stopped by excess water at lower levels. Tree roots go a bit deeper and
pump out the lower water, and lower nutrients.


Then the leaves
contact the wind. Also the trees could be a crop.


Not in the UK. Typically the value of small (say 1000T) of standing
timber is approximately zero. Most places the highest value sale is for
firewood.


You don't sell all the `crops' you plant. Some are like lupin to
nitrogenate the soil.

What I am talking about is `agroforestry'. On a small dairy farm you would
not have a huge tonnage of trees, they would be widely spaced, and where
they pumped out water it would make space for adjoining water to move.


Except that the trees are pretty well worthless in the UK.


You could plant several types of trees, each working better in

slightly
different conditions.


Trees are not rates for moisture loss.


Diversity is much better against troubles.


Sometimes it is, sometimes not.
In jims case alternatives to grass are problematic.


If you are gearing a farm up to sell having some specialist timber on it
might help to sell the farm. How about some spruce, pine or maple for
violin making? I don't know but maybe the growing rates would favour the
type of density of timber? I may be way off. But if you are far enough
from population can you burn your own timber for hot water &C?


total waste of time in UK, none of those trees will pay for the grass lost
in the area they stand.


Absolutely. I doubt they would grow very well given your location
anyway. If the wind didn't get them, the salt would.


In New Zealand we grow macrocarpa near the sea. That is a useful timber.
The roots can be long and not too deep. A shelter belt of a few rows
produces many single stemmed trees. If they are standing alone you might
need to prune them.


And this is relevant to lowland Cumbria exactly how? We have a crop that is
pretty well worthless in the UK and you expect me to prune it!

Jim Webster


 
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