On 20 Aug 2003 01:46:55 GMT, Brian Sandle
posted:

Jim Webster wrote:

"Brian Sandle" wrote in message
...
Jim Webster wrote:
is a very small niche market

A lot of farmers converted around 1999 to organic milk, and were
by 2001 able to call their milk organic and get a higher price.
Suddenly there was a lot more on the market. But they were asking
more for it than imported organic milk in the shops. The
disributors sold excess as non-organic, presumably to try to keep
organic label prices up.

No, they sold it as conventional because no one was willing to pay organic
price for it, not enough people actually want the damned stuff

There is a bit of a problem with milk because a lot of health-conscious
people think milk is designed for young cows, not adult humans.

Yes, I've heard this too. No reasons given, though.

Besides what is `organic price'? After conversion what proportion of costs
is subsidy, compared to non-organic? What rake off is going to
distributors?

Whatever they can get away with. That's the "free market".

Do you not think that bringing organic into the picture has saved jobs for
a few dairy farmers, as well as given more wealth to some distributors? I
see jobs rather than profit as the key in the future.

At the cost of scamming the public?

"Brian Sandle" wrote in message
...
Jim Webster wrote:

"Brian Sandle" wrote in message
...
Jim Webster wrote:

"Brian Sandle" wrote in message
...
Jim Webster wrote:


But my point is that if you don't notice any of those differences
then
perhaps your perceptivity might not be trusted as to differences
between
cows reactions to GM vs non-GM feed.

stop being silly

we are not talking about arbitary perceptions but people who are
monitoring
high yielding dairy cows so closely that a 5% drop in yield against
predicition is a cause for major investigation.

Yield is one important thing, but some people will pay for qualities,
won't they?

not s noticable proportion of the UK population

So many are trying to coach down the quest for organic quality.

When the top milk is butter it can no longer be poured on the
pudding.


BF, Protein and Lactose have been measured on a twice weekly basis (at
least) in UK milk for over 20 years. All these things are carefully
monitored

Measured in quantity.

I used to think that the processing was causing the trouble - that the
milk would be being agitated more in processing so that the journey in the
delivery truck would finish the churning to butter of the top milk.
Now I am thinking of the different fatty acid composition of the BF
because of feed.


In the US we have bred Holsteins to give skim milk is one of the reasons
there is little butter fat.

Gordon

In sci.med.nutrition Gordon Couger wrote:

"Brian Sandle" wrote in message
...
BF, Protein and Lactose have been measured on a twice weekly basis (at
least) in UK milk for over 20 years. All these things are carefully
monitored

Measured in quantity.

I used to think that the processing was causing the trouble - that the
milk would be being agitated more in processing so that the journey in the
delivery truck would finish the churning to butter of the top milk.
Now I am thinking of the different fatty acid composition of the BF
because of feed.


In the US we have bred Holsteins to give skim milk is one of the reasons
there is little butter fat.

Interesting, but still telling only of the butter fat proportion.

In a liter of milk different cows produce different amounts of butter fat,
yes. But you can look further into it and examine the type of butter fat.

Have you heard of saturated fats, monunsaturated fats, polyunsaturated
fats , omega-3 fatty acids, omega-6 fatty acids?

Grain fed cows produce more omega-6 in the butter fat, whereas grass fed
cows produce more omega-3, and the milk will last longer and probably have
better health properties - such as reducing your blood level of
triglycerides. But some people may not like the grass-fed milk taste.

Since chickens have been grain-fed, humans' level of anti-inflammatory
drug use has increased and that may be connected since the omega-6 fatty
acid arachidonic acid showing in grain-fed chicken tends to be more
inflammatory I think than omega-3.

Omega-6 fatty acids are also cancer promoters, can help them to grow.

"Brian Sandle" wrote in message
...
In sci.med.nutrition Gordon Couger wrote:

"Brian Sandle" wrote in message
...
BF, Protein and Lactose have been measured on a twice weekly basis
(at
least) in UK milk for over 20 years. All these things are carefully
monitored

Measured in quantity.

I used to think that the processing was causing the trouble - that the
milk would be being agitated more in processing so that the journey in
the
delivery truck would finish the churning to butter of the top milk.
Now I am thinking of the different fatty acid composition of the BF
because of feed.


In the US we have bred Holsteins to give skim milk is one of the reasons
there is little butter fat.

Interesting, but still telling only of the butter fat proportion.

In a liter of milk different cows produce different amounts of butter fat,
yes. But you can look further into it and examine the type of butter fat.

Have you heard of saturated fats, monunsaturated fats, polyunsaturated
fats , omega-3 fatty acids, omega-6 fatty acids?

Grain fed cows produce more omega-6 in the butter fat, whereas grass fed
cows produce more omega-3, and the milk will last longer and probably have

probably have? Any actual evidence

better health properties - such as reducing your blood level of
triglycerides. But some people may not like the grass-fed milk taste.

Since chickens have been grain-fed, humans' level of anti-inflammatory
drug use has increased and that may be connected since the omega-6 fatty
acid arachidonic acid showing in grain-fed chicken tends to be more
inflammatory I think than omega-3.

Note that since the advent of television humans' level of anti-inflammatory
drug use has increased and you have presented as much evidence for cause
and effect for the effects of chicken feed as I am going to do for
television


Jim Webster

In sci.med.nutrition Jim Webster wrote:

"Brian Sandle" wrote in message
...
Interesting, but still telling only of the butter fat proportion.

In a liter of milk different cows produce different amounts of butter fat,
yes. But you can look further into it and examine the type of butter fat.

Have you heard of saturated fats, monunsaturated fats, polyunsaturated
fats , omega-3 fatty acids, omega-6 fatty acids?

Grain fed cows produce more omega-6 in the butter fat, whereas grass fed
cows produce more omega-3, and the milk will last longer and probably have

probably have? Any actual evidence

I from time to time post my triglyceride vs omega-3 figures on
sci.med.cardiology. Fish oil (omega-3 containing) lowers it.

Maybe there is not enough in grass-fed milk to
have the same effect, but grain-fed meat hurts some people see
below.

better health properties - such as reducing your blood level of
triglycerides. But some people may not like the grass-fed milk taste.

Since chickens have been grain-fed, humans' level of anti-inflammatory
drug use has increased and that may be connected since the omega-6 fatty
acid arachidonic acid showing in grain-fed chicken tends to be more
inflammatory I think than omega-3.

Note that since the advent of television humans' level of anti-inflammatory
drug use has increased and you have presented as much evidence for cause
and effect for the effects of chicken feed as I am going to do for
television

Alf Christophersen helped us with omega-6 trouble some years back:

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=e...o.nz& rnum=11

I know about reumatic
: people who can eat freely mutton when the sheeps has just come
from the
: mountains, but get very sick in spring if the mutton is a sheep
that has
: been fed with n-6 rich food during winter. A big difference is the
: n-6/n-3 proportion which is very low in the autumn after the animals
has
: been fed wild growing grass that are rich in n-3 acids and low in
n-6
: acids. In spring, the proportion is normally high because the
sheep are
: fed grains that mostly contain n-6 acids and thus the meat should
: contain significant amounts of arachidonic acid.

"Brian Sandle" wrote in message
...
In sci.med.nutrition Jim Webster wrote:

"Brian Sandle" wrote in message
...
Interesting, but still telling only of the butter fat proportion.

In a liter of milk different cows produce different amounts of butter
fat,
yes. But you can look further into it and examine the type of butter
fat.

Have you heard of saturated fats, monunsaturated fats, polyunsaturated
fats , omega-3 fatty acids, omega-6 fatty acids?

Grain fed cows produce more omega-6 in the butter fat, whereas grass
fed
cows produce more omega-3, and the milk will last longer and probably
have

probably have? Any actual evidence

I from time to time post my triglyceride vs omega-3 figures on
sci.med.cardiology. Fish oil (omega-3 containing) lowers it.

Maybe there is not enough in grass-fed milk to
have the same effect, but grain-fed meat hurts some people see
below.

As in the UK there is no such thing as grass fed milk in the winter, while
even the 'grain feed' is actually a complex mixture of things such as sugar
beet, maize gluten, rape meal etc, I suspect that the figures are pretty
meaningless


better health properties - such as reducing your blood level of
triglycerides. But some people may not like the grass-fed milk taste.

Since chickens have been grain-fed, humans' level of anti-inflammatory
drug use has increased and that may be connected since the omega-6
fatty
acid arachidonic acid showing in grain-fed chicken tends to be more
inflammatory I think than omega-3.

Note that since the advent of television humans' level of
anti-inflammatory
drug use has increased and you have presented as much evidence for
cause
and effect for the effects of chicken feed as I am going to do for
television

Alf Christophersen h

and he is exactly who?

I know about reumatic
: people who can eat freely mutton when the sheeps has just come
from the
: mountains, but get very sick in spring if the mutton is a sheep
that has
: been fed with n-6 rich food during winter. A big difference is the
: n-6/n-3 proportion which is very low in the autumn after the animals
has
: been fed wild growing grass that are rich in n-3 acids and low in
n-6
: acids. In spring, the proportion is normally high because the
sheep are
: fed grains that mostly contain n-6 acids and thus the meat should
: contain significant amounts of arachidonic acid.

oh goodie

an anecdote.
But any trails, or any evidence?

Jim Webster

Jim Webster wrote:

"Brian Sandle" wrote in message
...
In sci.med.nutrition Jim Webster wrote:

"Brian Sandle" wrote in message
...
Interesting, but still telling only of the butter fat proportion.

In a liter of milk different cows produce different amounts of butter
fat,
yes. But you can look further into it and examine the type of butter
fat.

Have you heard of saturated fats, monunsaturated fats, polyunsaturated
fats , omega-3 fatty acids, omega-6 fatty acids?

Grain fed cows produce more omega-6 in the butter fat, whereas grass
fed
cows produce more omega-3, and the milk will last longer and probably
have

probably have? Any actual evidence

I from time to time post my triglyceride vs omega-3 figures on
sci.med.cardiology. Fish oil (omega-3 containing) lowers it.

Maybe there is not enough in grass-fed milk to
have the same effect, but grain-fed meat hurts some people see
below.

As in the UK there is no such thing as grass fed milk in the winter, while
even the 'grain feed' is actually a complex mixture of things such as sugar
beet, maize gluten, rape meal etc, I suspect that the figures are pretty
meaningless

Looks like quite a bit of omega-6 in that diet.


better health properties - such as reducing your blood level of
triglycerides. But some people may not like the grass-fed milk taste.

Since chickens have been grain-fed, humans' level of anti-inflammatory
drug use has increased and that may be connected since the omega-6
fatty
acid arachidonic acid showing in grain-fed chicken tends to be more
inflammatory I think than omega-3.

Note that since the advent of television humans' level of
anti-inflammatory
drug use has increased and you have presented as much evidence for
cause
and effect for the effects of chicken feed as I am going to do for
television

Alf Christophersen h

and he is exactly who?

A long time writer on sci.med.nutrition who seems very knowledgable.

I know about reumatic
: people who can eat freely mutton when the sheeps has just come
from the
: mountains, but get very sick in spring if the mutton is a sheep
that has
: been fed with n-6 rich food during winter. A big difference is the
: n-6/n-3 proportion which is very low in the autumn after the animals
has
: been fed wild growing grass that are rich in n-3 acids and low in
n-6
: acids. In spring, the proportion is normally high because the
sheep are
: fed grains that mostly contain n-6 acids and thus the meat should
: contain significant amounts of arachidonic acid.

oh goodie

an anecdote.
But any trails, or any evidence?

Pubmed has a lot on arachidonic acid, COX pathways and inflammation.

"Brian Sandle" wrote in message
...
Jim Webster wrote:


As in the UK there is no such thing as grass fed milk in the winter,
while
even the 'grain feed' is actually a complex mixture of things such as
sugar
beet, maize gluten, rape meal etc, I suspect that the figures are pretty
meaningless

Looks like quite a bit of omega-6 in that diet.


which week, because that is how often the diet components can change at
times

Alf Christophersen h

and he is exactly who?

A long time writer on sci.med.nutrition who seems very knowledgable.

Never having subscribed to the group I cannot comment either way about him


I know about reumatic
: people who can eat freely mutton when the sheeps has just come
from the
: mountains, but get very sick in spring if the mutton is a sheep
that has
: been fed with n-6 rich food during winter. A big difference is the
: n-6/n-3 proportion which is very low in the autumn after the animals
has
: been fed wild growing grass that are rich in n-3 acids and low in
n-6
: acids. In spring, the proportion is normally high because the
sheep are
: fed grains that mostly contain n-6 acids and thus the meat should
: contain significant amounts of arachidonic acid.

oh goodie

an anecdote.
But any trails, or any evidence?

Pubmed has a lot on arachidonic acid, COX pathways and inflammation.

What about lamb and eating it at different times of year?

Jim Webster

Jim Webster wrote:

"Brian Sandle" wrote in message
...
Jim Webster wrote:


As in the UK there is no such thing as grass fed milk in the winter,
while
even the 'grain feed' is actually a complex mixture of things such as
sugar
beet, maize gluten, rape meal etc, I suspect that the figures are pretty
meaningless

Looks like quite a bit of omega-6 in that diet.


which week, because that is how often the diet components can change at
times

Maybe that could explain clusters of patients with similar symptoms.

Or even does winter influenza coincide with change away from grass feeding
of beasts?

Yesterday I woke with a sore lower back after eating sunflower seeds the
evening before. This morning my back was not sore, and I hadn't eaten
sunflower seeds yesterday. So these things may take effect quite quickly?

[...]


Pubmed has a lot on arachidonic acid, COX pathways and inflammation.

What about lamb and eating it at different times of year?

Some people will be thinking:

Water is wet
Rain is water
When it rains we might get wet (unless something protects us.*)

Your suggestion is about the * bit?

Possibly not much research is being done because some researchers think
it is so obvious. But they could look into the * bit.

I note a paper on athletes getting not-totally-explained
delayed-muscle-soreness at the beginning of the season. That is of course
at the end of winter when the beasts they may be eating have been
grain-fed. Could be worth some investigation.

"Brian Sandle" wrote in message
...
Jim Webster wrote:

"Brian Sandle" wrote in message
...
Jim Webster wrote:


As in the UK there is no such thing as grass fed milk in the winter,
while
even the 'grain feed' is actually a complex mixture of things such as
sugar
beet, maize gluten, rape meal etc, I suspect that the figures are
pretty
meaningless

Looks like quite a bit of omega-6 in that diet.


which week, because that is how often the diet components can change at
times

Maybe that could explain clusters of patients with similar symptoms.

I can see it providing an excuse for hypochondria but damn all else


Or even does winter influenza coincide with change away from grass feeding
of beasts?

Rubbish, We used to get influenza back when livestock were slaughtered for
winter


Yesterday I woke with a sore lower back after eating sunflower seeds the
evening before. This morning my back was not sore, and I hadn't eaten
sunflower seeds yesterday. So these things may take effect quite quickly?

or may have nothing to do with it whatsoever

[...]


Pubmed has a lot on arachidonic acid, COX pathways and inflammation.

What about lamb and eating it at different times of year?

Some people will be thinking:

Water is wet
Rain is water
When it rains we might get wet (unless something protects us.*)

Your suggestion is about the * bit?

Possibly not much research is being done because some researchers think
it is so obvious. But they could look into the * bit.

I note a paper on athletes getting not-totally-explained
delayed-muscle-soreness at the beginning of the season. That is of course
at the end of winter when the beasts they may be eating have been
grain-fed. Could be worth some investigation.

Could be worth investigation? Sure, if you have money to waste, if you are
so keen, spend some, but don't waste anyone elses

Jim Webster

On 25 Aug 2003 10:55:39 GMT, Brian Sandle
posted:

In sci.med.nutrition Gordon Couger wrote:

"Brian Sandle" wrote in message
...
BF, Protein and Lactose have been measured on a twice weekly basis (at
least) in UK milk for over 20 years. All these things are carefully
monitored

Measured in quantity.

I used to think that the processing was causing the trouble - that the
milk would be being agitated more in processing so that the journey in the
delivery truck would finish the churning to butter of the top milk.
Now I am thinking of the different fatty acid composition of the BF
because of feed.


In the US we have bred Holsteins to give skim milk is one of the reasons
there is little butter fat.

Interesting, but still telling only of the butter fat proportion.

In a liter of milk different cows produce different amounts of butter fat,
yes. But you can look further into it and examine the type of butter fat.

Have you heard of saturated fats, monunsaturated fats, polyunsaturated
fats , omega-3 fatty acids, omega-6 fatty acids?

Grain fed cows produce more omega-6 in the butter fat, whereas grass fed
cows produce more omega-3, and the milk will last longer and probably have
better health properties - such as reducing your blood level of
triglycerides. But some people may not like the grass-fed milk taste.

Since chickens have been grain-fed, humans' level of anti-inflammatory
drug use has increased and that may be connected since the omega-6 fatty
acid arachidonic acid showing in grain-fed chicken tends to be more
inflammatory I think than omega-3.

Omega-6 fatty acids are also cancer promoters, can help them to grow.

Ferchrissake get over it. If you eat a varied wholefood diet, you
don't need to get yourself in a knot about all this contradictory
bullshit.

On Mon, 25 Aug 2003 17:40:34 +0100, "Jim Webster"
wrote:

What about lamb and eating it at different times of year?

Lamb are mainly slaughtered at autumn over here, and thus hs rather
high omega-3 to omega-6 ratio, (or low omega-6 to omega-3 ratio)

At Iceland where sheep always, more or less, are range feed (grazing
in mountains all days during year), they have one of the lowest
mortality rates from CVD, even having genes common with Norwegians and
other Northern Scandinavians, which has amongst the highest incidents
of these diseases. (but also high intake of meat from farmed animals,
except sheep nd lambs in autumn because they are fed in mountain
during spring/summer/autumn season. Rheumatic people seldom complains
about pain after eating lamb in autumn, while eating spring
slaughtered animals give them pain and eating pork meat always give
pain.
(Pigs are mostly fed omega-6 rich diet)

"Brian Sandle" wrote in message
...
In sci.med.nutrition Gordon Couger wrote:

"Brian Sandle" wrote in message
...
BF, Protein and Lactose have been measured on a twice weekly basis
(at
least) in UK milk for over 20 years. All these things are carefully
monitored

Measured in quantity.

I used to think that the processing was causing the trouble - that the
milk would be being agitated more in processing so that the journey in
the
delivery truck would finish the churning to butter of the top milk.
Now I am thinking of the different fatty acid composition of the BF
because of feed.


In the US we have bred Holsteins to give skim milk is one of the reasons
there is little butter fat.

Interesting, but still telling only of the butter fat proportion.

In a liter of milk different cows produce different amounts of butter fat,
yes. But you can look further into it and examine the type of butter fat.

Have you heard of saturated fats, monunsaturated fats, polyunsaturated
fats , omega-3 fatty acids, omega-6 fatty acids?

Grain fed cows produce more omega-6 in the butter fat, whereas grass fed
cows produce more omega-3, and the milk will last longer and probably have
better health properties - such as reducing your blood level of
triglycerides. But some people may not like the grass-fed milk taste.

You can't feed a cow enough grass to run a profitable dairy.

Since chickens have been grain-fed, humans' level of anti-inflammatory
drug use has increased and that may be connected since the omega-6 fatty
acid arachidonic acid showing in grain-fed chicken tends to be more
inflammatory I think than omega-3.

Omega-6 fatty acids are also cancer promoters, can help them to grow.

You can feed a chicken fish oil and get eggs you can stand to eat. In all
animals the nature of the fats they eat have some effect on their fat.

Try drinking milk from cows on rye pasture.

You have to feed the stock feed that produces a product that the consumer
wants. I do not like beef from the UK or some regions of the US when
fattened using the old customary methods.

What we like to eat is a matter of acquired taste and is very difficult to
change.

I take a drug for multiple sclerosis that changes the flavor of foods. It
doesn't make them taste bad just different. I no longer like Coke but do
like Pepsi. The over all effect on almost every one that takes it is they
loose weight and it is being brought out as a weight control drug next year.

Fiddling wiht the make up of fats in food will run off you customers.

Gordon

"Jim Webster" wrote in message
...

"Brian Sandle" wrote in message
...
In sci.med.nutrition Gordon Couger wrote:

"Brian Sandle" wrote in message
...
BF, Protein and Lactose have been measured on a twice weekly basis
(at
least) in UK milk for over 20 years. All these things are carefully
monitored

Measured in quantity.

I used to think that the processing was causing the trouble - that
the
milk would be being agitated more in processing so that the journey
in
the
delivery truck would finish the churning to butter of the top milk.
Now I am thinking of the different fatty acid composition of the BF
because of feed.


In the US we have bred Holsteins to give skim milk is one of the
reasons
there is little butter fat.

Interesting, but still telling only of the butter fat proportion.

In a liter of milk different cows produce different amounts of butter
fat,
yes. But you can look further into it and examine the type of butter
fat.

Have you heard of saturated fats, monunsaturated fats, polyunsaturated
fats , omega-3 fatty acids, omega-6 fatty acids?

Grain fed cows produce more omega-6 in the butter fat, whereas grass fed
cows produce more omega-3, and the milk will last longer and probably
have

probably have? Any actual evidence

better health properties - such as reducing your blood level of
triglycerides. But some people may not like the grass-fed milk taste.

Since chickens have been grain-fed, humans' level of anti-inflammatory
drug use has increased and that may be connected since the omega-6 fatty
acid arachidonic acid showing in grain-fed chicken tends to be more
inflammatory I think than omega-3.

Note that since the advent of television humans' level of
anti-inflammatory
drug use has increased and you have presented as much evidence for cause
and effect for the effects of chicken feed as I am going to do for
television

There was one feed perseveritive in the 60's that increased the laying life
of chicken by one third. I think it turned out to be a suspected carcinogen
or something. It was a very strong anti oxidant.

Gordon

On 27 Aug 2003 02:20:39 GMT, Brian Sandle
posted:

Jim Webster wrote:

"Brian Sandle" wrote in message
...
Jim Webster wrote:


As in the UK there is no such thing as grass fed milk in the winter,
while
even the 'grain feed' is actually a complex mixture of things such as
sugar
beet, maize gluten, rape meal etc, I suspect that the figures are pretty
meaningless

Looks like quite a bit of omega-6 in that diet.


which week, because that is how often the diet components can change at
times

Maybe that could explain clusters of patients with similar symptoms.

Or even does winter influenza coincide with change away from grass feeding
of beasts?

Yesterday I woke with a sore lower back after eating sunflower seeds the
evening before. This morning my back was not sore, and I hadn't eaten
sunflower seeds yesterday. So these things may take effect quite quickly?

[...]


Pubmed has a lot on arachidonic acid, COX pathways and inflammation.

What about lamb and eating it at different times of year?

Some people will be thinking:

Water is wet
Rain is water
When it rains we might get wet (unless something protects us.*)

Your suggestion is about the * bit?

Possibly not much research is being done because some researchers think
it is so obvious. But they could look into the * bit.

I note a paper on athletes getting not-totally-explained
delayed-muscle-soreness at the beginning of the season. That is of course
at the end of winter when the beasts they may be eating have been
grain-fed. Could be worth some investigation.

You are apparently a good example of why raw medical research papers
should be kept from the great unwashed.