Brian Sandle wrote:
Dean Hoffman wrote:

Another is insect control. There something showing up locally that has no
treatment except rotation. I don't remember what it is. It isn't the
traditional bugs or weeds.
The seed corn companies here won't put their crop into a field that had
corn the previous year.

So I hope the people here in NZ who are supporting the end of the GM
moratorium have got some figures on how that sort of thing affects their
whole profit scenario.

Or are they going to whimper that they could not have forseen such
problems and get a govt tax hand out for more research and or trying to
keep up standard of living of farmers who may be suffering. Otherwise how
can the govt keep on god terms with their mates in biotech?

The NZ govt seem to be now indicating they do not want Monsanto food crops
in the near future. Though that is not certain. But they might approve GM
pine. And former ag scientist and now Govt member Choudhary yesterday
referred to reduced chemical use in Australian GM cotton. As a scientist
he should have acknowledged the possibility this is only an initial blip
in pest control of this new venture in Australia, same as with the old DDT
which was dropped from constant use because it lost its effectiveness
against insects.

I have cautioned before about tissue culture of pine - many genetically
identical plants could be susceptible to new diseases/pests. Now we have
new aspects of problems as Dean has indicated. Pine takes quite a few
years to grow and if something goes wrong all those years could be lost.

Besides if your trees spread as weeds the way pines do in New Zealand,
will you be liable?

Didn't I read that some GM connected Canola - rape has become
uncontrollable by chemicals and Monsanto are sending workers to remove it
by hand?

"Brian Sandle" wrote in message
...
Brian Sandle wrote:
Dean Hoffman wrote:

Another is insect control. There something showing up locally that has
no
treatment except rotation. I don't remember what it is. It isn't the
traditional bugs or weeds.
The seed corn companies here won't put their crop into a field that
had
corn the previous year.

So I hope the people here in NZ who are supporting the end of the GM
moratorium have got some figures on how that sort of thing affects their
whole profit scenario.

Or are they going to whimper that they could not have forseen such
problems and get a govt tax hand out for more research and or trying to
keep up standard of living of farmers who may be suffering. Otherwise
how
can the govt keep on god terms with their mates in biotech?

The NZ govt seem to be now indicating they do not want Monsanto food crops
in the near future. Though that is not certain. But they might approve GM
pine. And former ag scientist and now Govt member Choudhary yesterday
referred to reduced chemical use in Australian GM cotton. As a scientist
he should have acknowledged the possibility this is only an initial blip
in pest control of this new venture in Australia, same as with the old DDT
which was dropped from constant use because it lost its effectiveness
against insects.

I have cautioned before about tissue culture of pine - many genetically
identical plants could be susceptible to new diseases/pests. Now we have
new aspects of problems as Dean has indicated. Pine takes quite a few
years to grow and if something goes wrong all those years could be lost.

Besides if your trees spread as weeds the way pines do in New Zealand,
will you be liable?

Didn't I read that some GM connected Canola - rape has become
uncontrollable by chemicals and Monsanto are sending workers to remove it
by hand?


I would love to see where you read this. Volunteer RR Canola can be sprayed
out of other crops such as flax(MCPA Ester) wheat(2,4-D Ester), peas(MCPA
Amine),and Barley(a variety of phenoxys) quite easily, and in a majority of
these fields these sprays are used whether the volunteers are there or not.



Dean Ronn

On Thu, 4 Sep 2003 06:21:15 -0600, "Dean Ronn" @home wrote:

I would love to see where you read this. Volunteer RR Canola can be sprayed
out of other crops such as flax(MCPA Ester) wheat(2,4-D Ester), peas(MCPA
Amine),and Barley(a variety of phenoxys) quite easily, and in a majority of
these fields these sprays are used whether the volunteers are there or not.

But I thought that one of the aims of GM crops was to *reduce* the use
of herbicides and pesticides? Once you get triple-resistant canola (as
has already happened) then you have to use *more* and stronger
herbicides...

regards
Marcus

On 4 Sep 2003 00:48:21 GMT, Brian Sandle
wrote:

Didn't I read that some GM connected Canola - rape has become
uncontrollable by chemicals and Monsanto are sending workers to remove it
by hand?

Here's some info about triple-resistant GM canola from over 3 years
ago...

regards
Marcus


February 10, 2000

Triple-resistant canola weeds found in Alta - Western Producer

By Mary MacArthur
Camrose bureau

Scientists have long said the use of herbicide-tolerant canola would
eventually result in super-resistant plants.

Now they've been proven right.

Volunteer canola resistant to three herbicide-tolerant canola systems
has been found in a field in northern Alberta.

"We knew it was going to happen," said Alberta Agriculture canola
specialist Phil Thomas.

"It was only a matter of when."

A series of chemical and DNA tests confirm the weeds in Tony Huether's
field near Sexsmith are resistant to Roundup, Liberty and Pursuit
chemicals.

It's the first official case of natural gene stacking in canola since
genetically modified canola was adopted by farmers five years ago,
said Denise Maurice, agronomy manager with Westco Fertilizers, a
fertilizer sales company. Stacking is the transfer of multiple genetic
traits, in this case herbicide tolerance.

The discovery comes at a time when GM crops are under fire worldwide.
Despite assurances from scientists, environmental groups have raised
concerns about the safety of eating products made from GM crops and
have expressed fears of producing a so-called superweed.

Canola scientist Keith Downey, who created modern canola, said the
triple-resistant canola isn't a great problem.

"We haven't created a superweed or anything like that."

Adding 2,4-D or a similar herbicide to a chemical mix will kill any
wayward weeds, he added.

"I don't think it means anything to consumers."

Jenny Hillard, vice-president of the Consumer Association of Canada,
said this will just be another "horror story" tossed about to frighten
consumers.

"The backlash now is so little based on fact, I know it won't make it
any worse," said Hillard.

"The general public hasn't a clue of what's going on. They're
frightened with so little science behind their fears. They need to get
a handle on this or we'll lose the whole damn technology."

Still, farmers like Huether have begun to question the technology that
led to the canola stew in his field.

The gene crossings have prompted him to stop growing genetically
modified canola.

"I wouldn't say I'd never do it again, but the way I feel, it's for
the best interest of the consumer that I don't."

Huether seeded two fields of canola in 1997. On the west side of a
county road he planted Quest, a canola tolerant of Monsanto's Roundup
herbicide. On the east side of the road he planted 20 acres of
Innovator, a canola tolerant of Aventis's Liberty herbicide. The rest
of the 140-acre field was planted to 45A71, a Smart canola tolerant to
Cyanamid's Pursuit and Odyssey herbicides. All are Argentine types.
The two fields are about 30 metres apart.

The year after he planted the field, he discovered volunteer weeds
resistant to Roundup where none had been planted. Double resistance
was confirmed the first year. The next year, triple resistance was
confirmed. Triple resistance can't happen in one year, said Downey.

The mixing of all three herbicide-tolerant types has been blamed on a
combination of bees and wind that carry pollen between plants in
fields too close together.

Researchers now recommend at least 200 metres between genetically
modified canola varieties and any other canola field to prevent gene
crossing.

It's been two years since Alberta Agriculture officials suspected
there might be a chance the volunteer canola weeds are resistant to
all three canola-herbicide systems, Huether said. Yet few farmers,
including him, have been made aware of potential problems and results
of the tests, he said.

Huether is bothered by the secrecy surrounding the field tests.

"Many plants were taken and a lot of seeds taken and grown out in the
lab and sprayed with herbicide, and DNA tests done on it, and the
results are not being made public. I feel that should be made public."

Huether points his finger at the close relationship between chemical
companies and government scientists.

"It's hush hush because research is funded to a large extent by big
business. I'm losing more and more confidence in the whole system of
research and how things are approved."

Carman Read, with Monsanto, said the company had nothing to do with
the Alberta Agriculture study and hasn't influenced Alberta
Agriculture to withhold the results.

John Huffman, an Alberta Agriculture crop specialist who worked with
Huether to identify the problems, said the report will likely be
released in two weeks.

writes

But I thought that one of the aims of GM crops was to *reduce* the use
of herbicides and pesticides? Once you get triple-resistant canola (as
has already happened)

triple resistant to what

then you have to use *more* and stronger
herbicides...

No, just the old ones.

--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.
Note: soon (maybe already) only posts via despammed.com will be accepted.

writes
A series of chemical and DNA tests confirm the weeds in Tony Huether's
field near Sexsmith are resistant to Roundup, Liberty and Pursuit
chemicals.

Aren't these all in the glyposate group?

--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.
Note: soon (maybe already) only posts via despammed.com will be accepted.

On 4 Sep 2003 00:48:21 GMT, Brian Sandle
posted:

Brian Sandle wrote:
Dean Hoffman wrote:

Another is insect control. There something showing up locally that has no
treatment except rotation. I don't remember what it is. It isn't the
traditional bugs or weeds.
The seed corn companies here won't put their crop into a field that had
corn the previous year.

So I hope the people here in NZ who are supporting the end of the GM
moratorium have got some figures on how that sort of thing affects their
whole profit scenario.

Or are they going to whimper that they could not have forseen such
problems and get a govt tax hand out for more research and or trying to
keep up standard of living of farmers who may be suffering. Otherwise how
can the govt keep on god terms with their mates in biotech?

The NZ govt seem to be now indicating they do not want Monsanto food crops
in the near future. Though that is not certain. But they might approve GM
pine. And former ag scientist and now Govt member Choudhary yesterday
referred to reduced chemical use in Australian GM cotton. As a scientist
he should have acknowledged the possibility this is only an initial blip
in pest control of this new venture in Australia, same as with the old DDT
which was dropped from constant use because it lost its effectiveness
against insects.

No, it was grossly overused and the extreme persistence was
recognised. It is still extremely effective against malaria with NO
environmental impact.

I have cautioned before about tissue culture of pine - many genetically
identical plants could be susceptible to new diseases/pests. Now we have
new aspects of problems as Dean has indicated. Pine takes quite a few
years to grow and if something goes wrong all those years could be lost.

And? So don't invest in it

Besides if your trees spread as weeds the way pines do in New Zealand,
will you be liable?

As much as with any other exotic weed.

Didn't I read that some GM connected Canola - rape has become
uncontrollable by chemicals and Monsanto are sending workers to remove it
by hand?

Which would these be? Are you referring to the Sooper Dooper
Frankenweeds that are glyphosate resistant wild mustard? Do what you
always had to do with wild mustard. It is no different to any other
wild mustard except that you can't use glyphosate on it.

Mooshie peas writes

Which would these be? Are you referring to the Sooper Dooper
Frankenweeds that are glyphosate resistant wild mustard? Do what you
always had to do with wild mustard.

It's impossible to control in rape in the UK.
We would get a few seasons (of rape) control over it with RR-rape, which
with a four year rotation should get us to year 12 providing we kill
100% whilst its still susceptible.

Hedge mustard and ******* cabbage, I hate 'em.

It is no different to any other wild
mustard except that you can't use glyphosate on it.

It's basically not controllable in rape, and completely invisible in
wheat/barley since it is so easily controlled.

--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.
Note: soon (maybe already) only posts via despammed.com will be accepted.

"Oz" wrote in message
...
Mooshie peas writes

Which would these be? Are you referring to the Sooper Dooper
Frankenweeds that are glyphosate resistant wild mustard? Do what you
always had to do with wild mustard.

It's impossible to control in rape in the UK.
We would get a few seasons (of rape) control over it with RR-rape, which
with a four year rotation should get us to year 12 providing we kill
100% whilst its still susceptible.

Hedge mustard and ******* cabbage, I hate 'em.

It is no different to any other wild
mustard except that you can't use glyphosate on it.

It's basically not controllable in rape, and completely invisible in
wheat/barley since it is so easily controlled.

Oz,
Is there not a registration for Dupont's "Muster" in your part of the
world. If not, I'm quite surprised??!!

Dean Ronn

--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.
Note: soon (maybe already) only posts via despammed.com will be accepted.

Dean Ronn ?@?.? writes

Oz,
Is there not a registration for Dupont's "Muster" in your part of the
world. If not, I'm quite surprised??!!

Maybe, but its not in the dupont product list I have here.

Telling me the active would be more help.

--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.
Note: soon (maybe already) only posts via despammed.com will be accepted.

"Oz" wrote in message
...
Dean Ronn ?@?.? writes

Oz,
Is there not a registration for Dupont's "Muster" in your part of
the
world. If not, I'm quite surprised??!!

Maybe, but its not in the dupont product list I have here.

Telling me the active would be more help.

--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.
Note: soon (maybe already) only posts via despammed.com will be accepted.


The active is ethametsulfuron-methyl. Here's a link where it is used in
conjunction with a grassy spray.

http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/general/...ument&noca lc



Dean

Dean Ronn ?@?.? writes

"Oz" wrote in message
...
Dean Ronn ?@?.? writes

Oz,
Is there not a registration for Dupont's "Muster" in your part of
the
world. If not, I'm quite surprised??!!

Maybe, but its not in the dupont product list I have here.

Telling me the active would be more help.


The active is ethametsulfuron-methyl. Here's a link where it is used in
conjunction with a grassy spray.

Yup, it does seem to exist in the UK, I will follow it up.

Whether hedge mustard and ******* cabbage are susceptible doesn't seem
to be known, it's not on the label. However I will enquire on monday.

Many thanks.

--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.
Note: soon (maybe already) only posts via despammed.com will be accepted.

Oz writes
Dean Ronn ?@?.? writes

Is there not a registration for Dupont's "Muster" in your part of
the
world. If not, I'm quite surprised??!!

Maybe, but its not in the dupont product list I have here.

Telling me the active would be more help.


The active is ethametsulfuron-methyl. Here's a link where it is used in
conjunction with a grassy spray.

Yup, it does seem to exist in the UK, I will follow it up.

Whether hedge mustard and ******* cabbage are susceptible doesn't seem
to be known, it's not on the label. However I will enquire on monday.

Muster is NOT approved in the UK.

Apparently the pesticide safety directorate will NOT approve sulphonyl
ureas for break crops (ie non-cereal crops) for fear of introducing
resistance.

Of course they might relent when a significant amount of UK land is
unable to grow canola, by which time it will be too late.

What timing is used for muster, noting that in the UK we grow
predominantly autumn sown canola.

I would be very grateful if you could check if sisymbrium offinale and
rapistrum rugosum are susceptible, because I have my doubts.

What are the original parents of canola?
I think torsten may know.

Many thanks.

--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.
Note: soon (maybe already) only posts via despammed.com will be accepted.

Oz writes
Dean Ronn ?@?.? writes

Is there not a registration for Dupont's "Muster" in your part of
the
world. If not, I'm quite surprised??!!

Maybe, but its not in the dupont product list I have here.

Telling me the active would be more help.


The active is ethametsulfuron-methyl. Here's a link where it is used in
conjunction with a grassy spray.

Yup, it does seem to exist in the UK, I will follow it up.

Whether hedge mustard and ******* cabbage are susceptible doesn't seem
to be known, it's not on the label. However I will enquire on monday.

Muster is NOT approved in the UK.

Apparently the pesticide safety directorate will NOT approve sulphonyl
ureas for break crops (ie non-cereal crops) for fear of introducing
resistance.

Of course they might relent when a significant amount of UK land is
unable to grow canola, by which time it will be too late.

What timing is used for muster, noting that in the UK we grow
predominantly autumn sown canola.

I would be very grateful if you could check if sisymbrium offinale and
rapistrum rugosum are susceptible, because I have my doubts.

What are the original parents of canola?
I think torsten may know.

Many thanks.

--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.
Note: soon (maybe already) only posts via despammed.com will be accepted.

"Oz" wrote in message
...
Oz writes
Dean Ronn ?@?.? writes

Is there not a registration for Dupont's "Muster" in your part
of
the
world. If not, I'm quite surprised??!!

Maybe, but its not in the dupont product list I have here.

Telling me the active would be more help.


The active is ethametsulfuron-methyl. Here's a link where it is used in
conjunction with a grassy spray.

Yup, it does seem to exist in the UK, I will follow it up.

Whether hedge mustard and ******* cabbage are susceptible doesn't seem
to be known, it's not on the label. However I will enquire on monday.

Muster is NOT approved in the UK.

Apparently the pesticide safety directorate will NOT approve sulphonyl
ureas for break crops (ie non-cereal crops) for fear of introducing
resistance.

Of course they might relent when a significant amount of UK land is
unable to grow canola, by which time it will be too late.

What timing is used for muster, noting that in the UK we grow
predominantly autumn sown canola.

I would be very grateful if you could check if sisymbrium offinale and
rapistrum rugosum are susceptible, because I have my doubts.

Brassica Nigra (yellow mustard) is not tolerant to this spray at all.

Sisymbrium Orientale(Oriental Mustard) is quite tolerant to Muster and
now has a registration enabling a farmer to use it on that particular crop,
so I'm guessing that is won't have any action on sisymbrium officinale. I'm
not sure about rapistrum rugosum.





What are the original parents of canola?

Good link here. It does not tell you the parents, but it is a good history
from my part of the world.

http://www.canola-council.org/pubs/milestones21.pdf

I think torsten may know.



Many thanks.

--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.
Note: soon (maybe already) only posts via despammed.com will be accepted.