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Old 24-04-2003, 12:20 PM
Billyism
 
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Default What is an heirloom?

What makes an heirloom variety? Why are they more expensive in the seed
catalogs? And on a different note, what's the best way to container garden
here in TX. I tried some tomatoes a few seasons back and they died when the
temp hit 100. Before that they were doing quite well. peppers are doing
great this year so far, but are they going to suffer the same fate?
Thanks,
Billyism


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Old 24-04-2003, 02:56 PM
animaux
 
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Default What is an heirloom?

On Thu, 24 Apr 2003 05:20:08 -0500, "Billyism"
wrote:

What makes an heirloom variety? Why are they more expensive in the seed
catalogs? And on a different note, what's the best way to container garden
here in TX. I tried some tomatoes a few seasons back and they died when the
temp hit 100. Before that they were doing quite well. peppers are doing
great this year so far, but are they going to suffer the same fate?
Thanks,
Billyism


Both peppers, potatoes, eggplant and tomatoes are in the Solanacea family, aka
nightshade family. They do not like heat. There are some hybrids like,
'Heatwave, Merced, Celebrity,' along with other suggested varieties 'Roma' comes
to mind which tolerate more heat. For the most part, we have two short growing
seasons rather than one long one; for nightshade plants. Up north they have one
growing season for such plants.

An heirloom is a plant which produces seed which can then be collected, saved
and planted the following year and come true to that variety. 'Brandywine' is a
potato leaf heirloom. I have not had much luck with them, but I grow them in
the winter now in my greenhouse where night temperatures are cool. With
hybrids, you can also save seed, but the plant the following year will not be
the same as it was. I mean, it possibly can be the same, but not likely. It
can revert back to one or more of the original plants it came from in the
hybridization process, but you never know.

Peppers are somewhat more tolerant of heat.
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Old 26-04-2003, 05:20 PM
Wayfarer
 
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Default What is an heirloom?

"Animaux" pretty much covered it -- but here's my additional 2 cents -

Heirlooms are also known for their flavor -- wider variety of flavor and
usually better and more intense. They often will come back the next year as
"volunteer" plants from tomatoes that fell off and rotten into the soil --
seeding themselves for the next year.

However Heirlooms are generally not as hardy as the Hybrids which are
genetically bred and sometimes enhanced (I've heard of some of the varieties
bred for northern climates so they are more tolerant of freezes have been
genetically engineered to do that by introducing a chromosome from fish).
The Hybrids are bred for disease resistance as well -- so for instance if
you discover your soil has been infected with Tobacco Mosaic Virus, which
very adversely affects tomatoes as well, you pretty much have to find a
Hybrid bred to resist that or forget it!

There are literally hundreds of varieties and I used to grow most of mine as
Heirlooms from seeds I ordered, mostly because local stores weren't into
anything but the standard Hybrids, but in recent years lots of local stores
have caught on that there are a lot of people like me (and apparently
"Animaux") who like to try different varieties including Heirlooms and there
is a lot more choice. This year in just a regular old backyard garden I
have 14 tomato plants -- three are Heirloom I grew from seed, two new
Heirloom varieties I hadn't tried before but bought at Red Barn, and the
other nine are Hybrid varieties -- several I know I can count on and like
and a few new ones to try out. -- If you want one to stand Texas heat my
favorite is a Hybrid (several generations of improvement -- improved from
Heat Wave) named SunMaster -- it is what they grow commercially here, 4 to 6
ounces (not real big but the big ones start to "cook" on the vine). I
talked with a neighbor who said she had luck with one called Creole
developed in Louisiana.

One last thing -- even though Heirlooms will bred "true" -- that is true if
you are only planting one variety otherwise they will self improve
themselves and cross pollinate, so you have to just choose one or start from
seed if you want to be very sure of what you get. Seed seems cheaper but it
isn't that cheap anymore -- a packet contains less and less seed and it is
not all viable, not all will germinate let alone make it into a plant that
will survive -- realistically unless you want to plant all of one variety,
buying seedlings turns out cheaper in my experience.

--
Marta
(if you email me directly you need to remove the X )


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Old 27-04-2003, 04:32 PM
N. Woolley
 
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Default What is an heirloom?

I believe that the fish-tomato is no longer on the market. The
scientists were so focused on getting the gene insertion to work that
they failed to pay attention to what tomato they were using. It just
didn't have any flavor, so people didn't buy it. The purpose of the
experiment was to get a tomato with a longer shelf life.

You will not be growing any genetically engineered plants in your garden
unless you sign a contract with Monsanto. They OWN those plants and when
you sign that paper, you agree to NOT save or replant seed from the
original crops under real threat of prosecution.

When the companies that make the GE plants claim that they are out to
feed the world or increase the nutrition in the food, don't believe it.
Third world countries are under real threats - if it is found that they
are growing plants that have the GE splice in them, they will have to
PAY. That's why an African nation not long ago turned down food aid for
it's starving people - the corn was genetically engineered and if it
escaped and contaminated their crops, they would have to pay Monsanto.
Not to mention that when these crops escape cultivation - the genie is
out of the bottle. What if.... one day a crop is discovered to cause
harm to the biology of the soil, cause allergies, cause harm to
wildlife, etc.?

And to top all this off - the people in the United States don't even
know that well over 50% of the products on the market today contain some
genetically engineered ingredients. We are not told. There are no
labeling requirements like there are in other countries.

(OK, stepping down off my soapbox)

-Nancy

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Old 27-04-2003, 05:56 PM
Wayfarer
 
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Default What is an heirloom?

I agree with most of what you said however Monsanto is not the only one
doing genetic engineering, Monsanto does not own all genetically engineered
plants. Many ag schools also do it and it can take several forms -- not
just the cross species example I offered. Some of it I am not against --
the ones that simply try to improve a strain by selective breeding -- it is
the forms of genetic engineering that are incorporating cross specie
breeding I am specifically concerned about for many reasons including people
who are allergic to something and have no way of knowing that a peanut gene
has been spliced into a potato or whatever, and eat a food they think is
safe for them but is not. An example of one of the controversies is when
they produced corn that repels insects -- and one method is by the corn
producing something that renders the insects sterile and there has been a
lot of controversy about that for fear of it affecting beneficial insects --
but this very method does exist in nature with some plants --

It is a very complex issue but I need to correct you on the point of
Monsanto being the sole entity doing research -- they are just the largest
and best know.

As a "backyard gardener" I have grown corn obtained from a couple of
different sources where I had to agree not only to only plant one variety
but to attempt to determine no neighbors within 1/4 mile of me were planting
corn because that is corn's danger of cross-pollination range. I also had
to send reports back to the person and agency from which I originally
obtained the seed(s), and agree to notify them if I shared the seed with
anyone else. In my case I was growing Heirloom Shawnee white flour corn,
but having attending an "ag school", yes, Virginia, Monsanto is not the only
one experimenting.


--
Marta
(if you email me directly you need to remove the X )




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Old 27-04-2003, 06:56 PM
N. Woolley
 
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Default What is an heirloom?

You are correct, Monsanto is not the only company doing the genetic
engineering. I should have made that clear in my post.

You say you are not against selective breeding to improve a strain.
Neither am I. But, that is not genetic engineering. GE puts genetic
material form one organism into another that would NEVER occur in
nature. Selective breeding is just helping along what comes naturally.

I, obviously, am anti-GE. I think the danger is just too great. We could
contaminate some very important food crops. Look at how Starlink corn
contaminated railway cars and grain elevators. And I don't really
believe that all farmers worldwide will observe the buffer zone rules.

OK, back to my garden!

-Nancy

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Old 27-04-2003, 07:20 PM
Wayfarer
 
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Default What is an heirloom?

Nancy, I understand your concern and passion and share some of it, but you
will get farther in alerting people to valid concerns if you are a little
more careful. In your first post you did say: "You will not be growing any
genetically engineered plants in your garden unless you sign a contract with
Monsanto.", which is not true, and in this post you are stating: "But, that
is not genetic engineering. GE puts genetic material form one organism into
another that would NEVER occur in nature. Selective breeding is just helping
along what comes naturally.", which is also not true. If you take a course
at an agricultural university you will find the term "genetic engineering"
incorporates selective breeding and many consider Mendel, the father of
genetic engineering for his work with documenting the phenotypes of peas.
You are apparently confusing the broader term of genetic engineering with
the more narrow practice of "recombinant DNA technology", which refers to
genetic engineering that takes a gene from one host and transplants it into
a different host in the hopes of transplanting a specific characteristic:

http://www.fda.gov/bbs/topics/CONSUMER/geneng.html :
"Though the notion of tinkering with a plant's traits is thought of as
something radically new by some people, scientists have been doing it for
many years in cruder, less predictable ways. For example, farmers have a
long tradition of breeding desired qualities into crops. But this process
took many plant generations. Researchers now can isolate a known trait from
any living species--plant, animal or microbe--and incorporate it into
another species. These traits are contained in genes--segments of the DNA
molecules found in all living cells. The process of recombining genes
bearing a chosen trait into the DNA molecules of a new host is called
"recombinant DNA technology.""

For example from (Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations ©
FAO 1999) http://www.fao.org/DOCREP/003/X3910E...htm#TopOfPage:

"genetic engineering Changes in the genetic constitution of cells (apart
from selective breeding) resulting from the introduction or elimination of
specific genes through modern molecular biology techniques. This technology
is based on the use of a vector for transferring useful genetic information
from a donor organism into a cell or organism that does not possess it. See
gene cloning.

A broader definition of genetic engineering also includes selective breeding
and other means of artificial selection."



--
Marta
(if you email me directly you need to remove the X )


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Old 28-04-2003, 06:56 PM
N. Woolley
 
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Default What is an heirloom?

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I don't think the commonly understood meaning of the term 'Genetic
Engineering' would include selective breeding. Plug that term into any
search engine and you come up with links to biotechnology. When
Greenpeace has a campaign against GE foods, they aren't referring to
hybrids. But how about using the term 'Genetically Modified Organism'
(GMO)? That's the term the FDA uses in their organic standards.

A GMO is created by:
"A variety of methods used to genetically modify organisms or influence
their growth and development by means that are not possible under
natural conditions or processes and are not considered compatible with
organic production. Such methods include cell fusion, microencapsulation
and macroencapsulation, and recombinant DNA technology (including gene
deletion, gene doubling, introducing a foreign gene, and changing the
position of genes when achieved by recombinant DNA technology). Such
methods do not include the use of traditional breeding, conjugation,
fermentation, hybridization, in vitro fertilization, or tissue culture.”

Full Text at:
http://www.ams.usda.gov/nop/NOP/standards/FullText.pdf

'Selective breeding' as done by Mendel and countless others would fall
in the category of traditional breeding.

I think the biotech industry tries to sell itself to the public as being
no different than traditional plant breeders. As in the magazine ads
showing a woman out in a field in front of a farmhouse. But, it's just
not the same. To go back to the original post, a fish would just never
cross it's DNA with a tomato!

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Old 28-04-2003, 07:56 PM
Terry Horton
 
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Default What is an heirloom?

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On Sun, 27 Apr 2003 17:16:33 GMT, "Wayfarer"
wrote:

http://www.fda.gov/bbs/topics/CONSUMER/geneng.html :
"Though the notion of tinkering with a plant's traits is thought of as
something radically new by some people, scientists have been doing it for
many years in cruder, less predictable ways. For example, farmers have a
long tradition of breeding desired qualities into crops. But this process
took many plant generations. Researchers now can isolate a known trait from
any living species--plant, animal or microbe--and incorporate it into
another species. These traits are contained in genes--segments of the DNA
molecules found in all living cells. The process of recombining genes
bearing a chosen trait into the DNA molecules of a new host is called
"recombinant DNA technology.""


It's rather like saying nuclear fission and oxen are just two very
similar ways of releasing energy.

Recombinant DNA technology is the most potentially beneficial, most
potentially dangerous technology ever unleashed. Life forms whose
genomes have been isolated since the dawn of nucleated cells are being
interbred. The states of our knowledge of this branch of biology and
of ecology are too primitive to justify release of these organisms
into the environment.

"Predictable"?... Already Bt corn's caterpillar-killing bacterial
genes have spread into the wild corn populations in Mexico. Allowing
this type of ad hoc experimentation with the wellspring of one of our
most essential foodstuffs is nothing short of insane.
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Old 29-04-2003, 05:08 PM
Terry Horton
 
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Default What is an heirloom?

On Mon, 28 Apr 2003 22:20:54 GMT, "Wayfarer"
wrote:

I am referring to being careful about sweeping incorrect statements as FACT
which Nancy did do in both posts. And yes, if you plug in "Genetic
Engineering" into a search engine you will get articles ranging from it
referring to a very narrow recumbent DNA to the broader selective breeding.

The problem is that it is an important, complicated, and controversial issue
and when people make the kind of broad sweeping INCORRECT statements as
Nancy did it takes away from the credibility of anything she says including
alerting people to the issue.


Thanks for posting what you did. This has been a good thread, with a
lot of useful information (not meaning to include my own tirade :-)


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Old 30-04-2003, 04:46 AM
Wayfarer
 
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Default What is an heirloom?

Thanks.

I'm not blasting Nancy -- I commend her for her concern -- but it is
complicated and controversial and I worry that people will blow it off if
they read statements that aren't true and then discount everything.

--
Marta
(if you email me directly you need to remove the X )


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Old 30-04-2003, 10:20 PM
Terry Horton
 
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Default What is an heirloom?

On Wed, 30 Apr 2003 02:45:36 GMT, "Wayfarer"
wrote:

Thanks.

I'm not blasting Nancy -- I commend her for her concern -- but it is
complicated and controversial and I worry that people will blow it off if
they read statements that aren't true and then discount everything.


That was my concern about the FDA comment. :-)
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Old 05-05-2003, 03:44 PM
Steve Coyle
 
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Default What is an heirloom?

Howdy folks,
In regards to this snippet

I'm not blasting Nancy -- I commend her for her concern -- but it is
complicated and controversial and I worry that people will blow it off if
they read statements that aren't true and then discount everything.


I second the notion that for a subject this controversial
getting your basic info straight is a prerequisite for being taken
seriously.
The best and most recent book on the subject is by long time
science writer Kathleen Hart, published in 2002 called "Eating in the
Dark" which the Austin Library has a couple of copies of. I stuck a
review of it up on my site along with some of my other favorite books.
Her book is very straight forward without a lot of histrionics.
One of the interesting studies she looks at that jumped out at me was
the discovery that Bees that were feeding on genetically modified
crops were, themselves experiencing their own genetic modification,
the first interspecies jump of genetically modified code.
A larger and more metaphysical subject is the discussion within the
gene code researchers that genes act not as 'building blocks' that can
be removed and replaced but operate in a synergistic' web' making the
effects of gene insertion far more unpredictable than previously
thought.
She also talks about the economic impact that as happened so often
hits the farmer hardest. Farmers growing crops for human consumption
have found their crops unable to go to market because of 'unexpected'
cross contamination with crops engineered solely for feed leaving them
to take a loss.
She also takes a look at what is coming down the pike which is the
introduction this year or the next of geneticly modified wheat crops
which the industry is gearing up for in a preemptive fashion to
deflect protest.

On a cheerfull note, last January the FBI gave a talk to farmers
in Virginia (this was an AP report ) warning them to be suspicious of
any of their neighbors who complained about GMO crops, that they could
be potential terrorists, like those crops burners in Ireland and
England. The FBI warned them to start keeping lists of folks in the
areas opposed to GMO's. I suspect this is in anticipation of the
uproar when folks figure out it's not just corn chips they have to
worry about, but their bread.
We seem to have a historically recurring pattern here, use a
serious threat to pass draconian laws against potential enemies, and
then start categorizing anyone who disagrees with your interest as a
'potential enemy'.

Anyway, I strongly suggest "Eating in the Dark" and if your the
type who really likes to scare yourself about new genetic technology
read "The Demon in the Freezer", about what happens when we start
playing with the gene code of some of our favorite diseases.

take care,
Steve Coyle
www.austingardencenter.com
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Old 05-05-2003, 04:56 PM
N. Woolley
 
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Default What is an heirloom?

Ok, so I spoke (or wrote) like this was a casual conversation instead of
a classroom. I have learned a lesson - I had better be precise.

I have also read a good book on the subject. 'Lords of the Harvest:
Biotech, Money, and the Future of Food' by Daniel Charles. It came out
in 2001 and covers the origins of the industry. The author is not biased
for or against.

-Nancy

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Old 06-05-2003, 03:44 AM
Joe Doe
 
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Default What is an heirloom?

In article , "N. Woolley"
wrote:

Ok, so I spoke (or wrote) like this was a casual conversation instead of
a classroom. I have learned a lesson - I had better be precise.

I have also read a good book on the subject. 'Lords of the Harvest:
Biotech, Money, and the Future of Food' by Daniel Charles. It came out
in 2001 and covers the origins of the industry. The author is not biased
for or against.

-Nancy


As a molecular biologist I was tempted to respond to your first post. I
chose not to because I would have to invest a lot of time to make a
reasoned argument refuting several of your points. I was not sure the
effort would be worth my time - the issues are too complex and audience
too mixed to be able to cover the ground we need to cover - for example
conventional breeding uses heavy mutagenesis frequently to generate the
heterogeneity needed for breeding stocks. Conventional mutagensis also
mainly yields loss of function mutations vs gain of function. Many genes
are mutated and nobody knows what was hit. So these lines are far from
pristine. There is a huge gulf between the tomato we eat and primitive
forms in Peru. (Incidentally, I intend to try at least a hundred heirloom
Tomato varieties over the next ten years - so I appreciate our rapidly
dwindling genetic heritage).

There are several issues about disease resistant cultivars not being
released to poor countries because of peoples phobias of GM food and not
Monsantos greed as you suggested. In the ultimate analysis, I decided I
simply did not have the time to articulate all the complexities that go
into the GM debate and then defend my position so will stay on the
sidelines.

Roland
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