Xref: 127.0.0.1 austin.gardening:20826 rec.gardens:414357

Hey Folks,

I know this has been asked before and I've read all the posts. Its left me
rather confused, so I want to see if I can clear this up.

Briefly, I had a st augustine yard which I did not take care of (too lazy to
drag hose around) and now its in bad shape. The areas in sun are now mostly
bermuda, those in shade are st augustine. There are also some other weed
grasses growing at places (I am told its foxgrass) and bare spots that just
have dead grass (no, its not dormant..its just dirt under underneath and no
root) and some rye grass growing in between.

NOW, I just had a sprinkler system installed . I am hoping to recover the
yard and looking for options from people who've done this before.

So whats the best way of getting the yard back in shape? This is what I've
heard from numerous sources:

1. "Keep watering deep every five days and st. augustine will take over."
Will this really happen? If yes, how long will it take? I dont care much if
its mixed augstine and bermuda as long as its green.

2. "Till the grass in (no need to kill it all). Rake. Sod": This will
probably work, but its expensive.

3. "Till the grass in, rake it. Sod with a 1 foot spacing between sod
squares". How long will this take to cover the whole yard?

4. "Get some runners from other places in the yard and plant those in the
dead areas". Again, how long will the grass take to establish and how do you
really plant runners? Under the ground, over the ground..prepartion?

5. "Just put a layer of dirt on top and keep watering. augustine will send
runners and grow by itself with adequate watering".

Then I've also read a host of different things like use round up to kill
first before doing other stuff, to get soil tests, to put new dirt etc etc.
Obviously, I am looking for an option thats balanced between expense,
effort, and time to establishment.

Any folks out there who've done this or have experience, please write back.

thanks!

On Sat, 26 Apr 2003 04:39:25 GMT, "New Farmer" wrote:


1. "Keep watering deep every five days and st. augustine will take over."
Will this really happen? If yes, how long will it take? I dont care much if
its mixed augstine and bermuda as long as its green.

Bermuda will take over the sunny areas. Watering deeply and mowing high weekly
is supreme. Watering at least one inch a week will bring the roots into the
soil beneath. One inch of water penetrates or percolates about 8 inches into the
soil. The trees benefit, so does all the life in the soil.

2. "Till the grass in (no need to kill it all). Rake. Sod": This will
probably work, but its expensive.

No need. Call a service and have you lawn core aerated and top dress with
compost from The Natural Gardener. OR, buy a liquid humate product. Dromgoole
has his Terra Tonic or John's Recipe.


3. "Till the grass in, rake it. Sod with a 1 foot spacing between sod
squares". How long will this take to cover the whole yard?

A very long time and it will never be level. I do not recommend this in our
climate.


4. "Get some runners from other places in the yard and plant those in the
dead areas". Again, how long will the grass take to establish and how do you
really plant runners? Under the ground, over the ground..prepartion?

Just mow regularly, put out a light application of fertilizer (Milorganite is
cheap and fine for grass) and water deeply instead of 10 minutes a day. Measure
how long you need the sprinkler to run in order to put one inch down using tuna
fish cans. When they have an inch of water, that's how long you need to water
to get one inch. Probably a few hours.

5. "Just put a layer of dirt on top and keep watering. augustine will send
runners and grow by itself with adequate watering".

I don't recommend this.

Then I've also read a host of different things like use round up to kill
first before doing other stuff, to get soil tests, to put new dirt etc etc.
Obviously, I am looking for an option thats balanced between expense,
effort, and time to establishment.

My suggestion to you is to remove any turf which curls in heat and replace it
with native ground covers or turn them into native plant beds. Less turf is
ideal in our climate.


Any folks out there who've done this or have experience, please write back.

thanks!

I do everything I suggested.

Replace your wheels on your lawnmower with 10" ones.
Cut often & leave the grass "really" long. It will be the
best looking lawn on the block if you water & fertilize it.
If you cut low (normal) , the grass just can't recover
during the heat - like it does when cut with 10" wheels.

Gene




--
E-mail:

"animaux" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 26 Apr 2003 04:39:25 GMT, "New Farmer"
wrote:


1. "Keep watering deep every five days and st. augustine will take over."
Will this really happen? If yes, how long will it take? I dont care much
if
its mixed augstine and bermuda as long as its green.

Bermuda will take over the sunny areas. Watering deeply and mowing high
weekly
is supreme. Watering at least one inch a week will bring the roots into
the
soil beneath. One inch of water penetrates or percolates about 8 inches
into the
soil. The trees benefit, so does all the life in the soil.

2. "Till the grass in (no need to kill it all). Rake. Sod": This will
probably work, but its expensive.

No need. Call a service and have you lawn core aerated and top dress
with
compost from The Natural Gardener. OR, buy a liquid humate product.
Dromgoole
has his Terra Tonic or John's Recipe.


3. "Till the grass in, rake it. Sod with a 1 foot spacing between sod
squares". How long will this take to cover the whole yard?

A very long time and it will never be level. I do not recommend this in
our
climate.


4. "Get some runners from other places in the yard and plant those in the
dead areas". Again, how long will the grass take to establish and how do
you
really plant runners? Under the ground, over the ground..prepartion?

Just mow regularly, put out a light application of fertilizer (Milorganite
is
cheap and fine for grass) and water deeply instead of 10 minutes a day.
Measure
how long you need the sprinkler to run in order to put one inch down using
tuna
fish cans. When they have an inch of water, that's how long you need to
water
to get one inch. Probably a few hours.

5. "Just put a layer of dirt on top and keep watering. augustine will
send
runners and grow by itself with adequate watering".

I don't recommend this.

Then I've also read a host of different things like use round up to kill
first before doing other stuff, to get soil tests, to put new dirt etc
etc.
Obviously, I am looking for an option thats balanced between expense,
effort, and time to establishment.

My suggestion to you is to remove any turf which curls in heat and replace
it
with native ground covers or turn them into native plant beds. Less turf
is
ideal in our climate.


Any folks out there who've done this or have experience, please write
back.

thanks!

I do everything I suggested.

I agree with everything animaux said, except possibly for bermuda
taking over in sunny areas, but this may be the case in Austin with
shallower soils. In northeast Tx., St. Augustine overuns everything
if watered enough. It requires more water than everything else, but
is more susceptible to diseases, which is one reason why it is better
to water deeper less often. Watering every day or every other day
causes a lot of disease problems.

If your yard has become dry enough for grass to die out, it is
probably compacted, so aerating is definately recommended. If it is
not a large area, or money is not a factor, this is a good time to
topdress with compost, but is not necessary.

Aerate, water deeply, fertilize, and mow at 3" and the st. Augustine
will spread out. How long? Sorry, depends on your conditions. You
can use plugs in bare areas to speed it up, but as animaux said, do
not patch sod, it will be uneven.

Good luck,
Bryan

Try cutting to no shorter than 6".
If it's "uniform" it looks great.

Gene



--
E-mail:

"Gene S" wrote in message
...
Replace your wheels on your lawnmower with 10" ones.
Cut often & leave the grass "really" long. It will be the
best looking lawn on the block if you water & fertilize it.
If you cut low (normal) , the grass just can't recover
during the heat - like it does when cut with 10" wheels.

Gene




--
E-mail:

"animaux" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 26 Apr 2003 04:39:25 GMT, "New Farmer"
wrote:


1. "Keep watering deep every five days and st. augustine will take
over."
Will this really happen? If yes, how long will it take? I dont care
much
if
its mixed augstine and bermuda as long as its green.

Bermuda will take over the sunny areas. Watering deeply and mowing high
weekly
is supreme. Watering at least one inch a week will bring the roots into
the
soil beneath. One inch of water penetrates or percolates about 8 inches
into the
soil. The trees benefit, so does all the life in the soil.

2. "Till the grass in (no need to kill it all). Rake. Sod": This will
probably work, but its expensive.

No need. Call a service and have you lawn core aerated and top dress
with
compost from The Natural Gardener. OR, buy a liquid humate product.
Dromgoole
has his Terra Tonic or John's Recipe.


3. "Till the grass in, rake it. Sod with a 1 foot spacing between sod
squares". How long will this take to cover the whole yard?

A very long time and it will never be level. I do not recommend this in
our
climate.


4. "Get some runners from other places in the yard and plant those in
the
dead areas". Again, how long will the grass take to establish and how
do
you
really plant runners? Under the ground, over the ground..prepartion?

Just mow regularly, put out a light application of fertilizer
(Milorganite
is
cheap and fine for grass) and water deeply instead of 10 minutes a day.
Measure
how long you need the sprinkler to run in order to put one inch down
using
tuna
fish cans. When they have an inch of water, that's how long you need to
water
to get one inch. Probably a few hours.

5. "Just put a layer of dirt on top and keep watering. augustine will
send
runners and grow by itself with adequate watering".

I don't recommend this.

Then I've also read a host of different things like use round up to
kill
first before doing other stuff, to get soil tests, to put new dirt etc
etc.
Obviously, I am looking for an option thats balanced between expense,
effort, and time to establishment.

My suggestion to you is to remove any turf which curls in heat and
replace
it
with native ground covers or turn them into native plant beds. Less
turf
is
ideal in our climate.


Any folks out there who've done this or have experience, please write
back.

thanks!

I do everything I suggested.

Northeast Texas is a full agricultural zone lower than we are in 8b. You are in
7a-7b. No comparison. You also have more acidic soils up in NE Texas. We have
highly calciferous soils, some deep (like mine at 5 feet deep) and some shallow.
People with shallow soil have a very hard time using turf. In Austin, more
people use native landscapes than anywhere I've lived. I'm so glad to be here.

We saw a black skink today in the garden!

On 27 Apr 2003 05:49:11 -0700, (bryan lafleur) wrote:

I agree with everything animaux said, except possibly for bermuda
taking over in sunny areas, but this may be the case in Austin with
shallower soils. In northeast Tx., St. Augustine overuns everything
if watered enough. It requires more water than everything else, but
is more susceptible to diseases, which is one reason why it is better
to water deeper less often. Watering every day or every other day
causes a lot of disease problems.

If your yard has become dry enough for grass to die out, it is
probably compacted, so aerating is definately recommended. If it is
not a large area, or money is not a factor, this is a good time to
topdress with compost, but is not necessary.

Aerate, water deeply, fertilize, and mow at 3" and the st. Augustine
will spread out. How long? Sorry, depends on your conditions. You
can use plugs in bare areas to speed it up, but as animaux said, do
not patch sod, it will be uneven.

Good luck,
Bryan

re. "OR, buy a liquid humate product. Dromgoole has his Terra Tonic or
John's Recipe."

Hello,

Just heard of this stuff recently and wondering if anyone can share their
experience with it... that is, as it
applies to keeping your lawn healthy:

How often you have to apply it?
How much does it cost?
How well does it work, in your opinion?
How long does it take to see results?
etc...

Thanks in advance!
Curt

On Mon, 28 Apr 2003 13:41:37 GMT, "Curt V" wrote:

re. "OR, buy a liquid humate product. Dromgoole has his Terra Tonic or
John's Recipe."

Hello,

Just heard of this stuff recently and wondering if anyone can share their
experience with it... that is, as it
applies to keeping your lawn healthy:

How often you have to apply it?
How much does it cost?
How well does it work, in your opinion?
How long does it take to see results?
etc...

Thanks in advance!
Curt


It works the same way compost works. It applies the important faction to
compost, the humates. It stimulates organisms in the soil, feeds them, which
ultimately make available nutrients for turf which would have been otherwise
locked up in the clay. I believe a quart covers 2,000 square feet, but I could
be incorrect. A gallon is not more expensive than a yard of compost, but it
gives you the same effect as compost. Take a look over on their website:

www.naturalgardeneraustin.com

Then, give them a call.

New Farmer wrote:

Hey Folks,
1. "Keep watering deep every five days and st. augustine will take over."
Will this really happen? If yes, how long will it take? I dont care much if
its mixed augstine and bermuda as long as its green.

This is what I did. When I moved in the yard was less than 25% St.
Augustine and was a giant mess of dandelion and thistle in the spring.
I try to water as little as possible, once/week or a little less, for a
couple hours. The grass browns out in the heat of the summer but gets
better in the fall and looks great every spring. I have St. Augustine
nearly everywhere that I can expect it to grow, probably 80% or more of
the yard. It won't grow in the shady parts or under the playscape.
This has taken 4 years or so but I haven't used feed or herbicides to
speak of. I did have to resod 100 ft^2 or so, 2 summers ago when
Pflugerville banned watering completely. That sod spread immediately
into the rest of the yard. When I dig up grass for beds I transplant it
in trouble places. Eventually it'll displace the Bermuda.

4. "Get some runners from other places in the yard and plant those in the
dead areas". Again, how long will the grass take to establish and how do you
really plant runners? Under the ground, over the ground..prepartion?

(at a different house) I saved the runners that grow into the sidewalk
after edging and planted them carefully one spring, by the end of the
summer they had filled in a 50 ft^2 area or so. I just pitched a bunch
of runners mixed with mower clippings into a different corner of the
yard and got the same results. I think you have to water this plan
pretty well until it's established.

Obviously, I am looking for an option thats balanced between expense,
effort, and time to establishment.

If you're patient, water and wait. You'll see every spring that the St.
Augustine spreads more and more. If you're not patient then re-sod the
trouble spots. It'll spread fast.

--steve

It must be a terrible responsibility to be an expert on every subject.
"animaux" wrote in message
...
Northeast Texas is a full agricultural zone lower than we are in 8b. You
are in
7a-7b. No comparison. You also have more acidic soils up in NE Texas.
We have
highly calciferous soils, some deep (like mine at 5 feet deep) and some
shallow.
People with shallow soil have a very hard time using turf. In Austin,
more
people use native landscapes than anywhere I've lived. I'm so glad to be
here.

We saw a black skink today in the garden!

On 27 Apr 2003 05:49:11 -0700, (bryan lafleur) wrote:

I agree with everything animaux said, except possibly for bermuda
taking over in sunny areas, but this may be the case in Austin with
shallower soils. In northeast Tx., St. Augustine overuns everything
if watered enough. It requires more water than everything else, but
is more susceptible to diseases, which is one reason why it is better
to water deeper less often. Watering every day or every other day
causes a lot of disease problems.

If your yard has become dry enough for grass to die out, it is
probably compacted, so aerating is definately recommended. If it is
not a large area, or money is not a factor, this is a good time to
topdress with compost, but is not necessary.

Aerate, water deeply, fertilize, and mow at 3" and the st. Augustine
will spread out. How long? Sorry, depends on your conditions. You
can use plugs in bare areas to speed it up, but as animaux said, do
not patch sod, it will be uneven.

Good luck,
Bryan

It must be a terrible responsibility to be an expert on every subject.
"animaux" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 28 Apr 2003 13:41:37 GMT, "Curt V"
wrote:

re. "OR, buy a liquid humate product. Dromgoole has his Terra Tonic or
John's Recipe."

Hello,

Just heard of this stuff recently and wondering if anyone can share their
experience with it... that is, as it
applies to keeping your lawn healthy:

How often you have to apply it?
How much does it cost?
How well does it work, in your opinion?
How long does it take to see results?
etc...

Thanks in advance!
Curt


It works the same way compost works. It applies the important faction to
compost, the humates. It stimulates organisms in the soil, feeds them,
which
ultimately make available nutrients for turf which would have been
otherwise
locked up in the clay. I believe a quart covers 2,000 square feet, but I
could
be incorrect. A gallon is not more expensive than a yard of compost, but
it
gives you the same effect as compost. Take a look over on their website:

www.naturalgardeneraustin.com

Then, give them a call.