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Old 03-10-2005, 07:21 PM
Paul
 
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On Mon, 3 Oct 2005 15:23:55 +0100, "Bob Hobden"
wrote:


"Paul" wrote after Bob replied to him...
I am starting a garden in a new build house, the main part of the
garden measures approx 11M deep X 17M long. This garden is in a windy
seaside location, I have currently laid the whole garden to lawn with
the intention of "carving it up" with some sort of design next spring.

Since the garden is flat and bounded by brick walls and fences I would
like to use plants to soften the these hard edges and give the garden
some height. As a start I would like to plant some standard trees this
autumn, (my wife likes apples).

Any suggestions as to what types of apple tree would be suitable for
my garden, what size should I buy and when should I plant my tree(s).

My late mother used to live 100yds from the S. coast, as Janet has said,
you
need to get a book on seaside gardening as there are not many plants that
like or can tolerate the wind and salt spray. A lot of plants in Mums
garden
used to get burnt every winter, and it wasn't frost. She did have an
apple,
a Worcester I think, but it only grew well below the fence height, where
it
was exposed to the wind off the sea it got badly damaged.
You are gardening in very special conditions, get a good book and become
an
expert.


Should'nt have much of a problem with salt spray, but all the comments
on wind have struck home.


Any strong wind from the sea will have salt in it, I don't mean wave splash.


You are probably right, however in our last house, also by the
seaside, we inherited a monster apple tree with a trunk diameter of
over a foot and span of around 40 feet.

And how did Dwayne know that I have a Cedar 100M away.

Perhaps I'll plant some Pines instead :-(


Paul
  #17   Report Post  
Old 03-10-2005, 08:35 PM
Sarah Dale
 
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Paul wrote:

You are probably right, however in our last house, also by the
seaside, we inherited a monster apple tree with a trunk diameter of
over a foot and span of around 40 feet.

And how did Dwayne know that I have a Cedar 100M away.


Paul,

I think it may be worth checking with Dwayne where he got his info from.
He sounded as though he was possibly in the States rather than the UK,
and that may have relevance to his comments.

Personally, I've never heard about not having apple trees within 2km of
a cedar, but freely admit I've not read everything on the subject

I'm happily growing 4 apples, 1 pear and 1 plum in a windy garden in
N.Wales about 2m (as the crow flies) from the River Dee. Admittedly mine
are (hopefully!) on dwarfing rootstocks, and at only 3 yrs old, are
mostly less than 7 foot tall presently.

Regards,

Sarah
  #18   Report Post  
Old 03-10-2005, 09:32 PM
Jaques d'Alltrades
 
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The message
from "Bob Hobden" contains these words:

Should'nt have much of a problem with salt spray, but all the comments
on wind have struck home.


Any strong wind from the sea will have salt in it, I don't mean wave splash.


If you look at a map of the Isle of Lewis, I was a bit south of Balallan
some years ago - about halfway between there and Clisham (small
mountain) and could taste the salt spray. There was a fine storm raging,
but that stretch of road was around 20 miles from the West Side, from
where the weather came.

--
Rusty
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Old 03-10-2005, 09:33 PM
Jaques d'Alltrades
 
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The message
from Sarah Dale contains these words:

Personally, I've never heard about not having apple trees within 2km of
a cedar, but freely admit I've not read everything on the subject


2km?

--
Rusty
  #20   Report Post  
Old 03-10-2005, 09:50 PM
David W.E. Roberts
 
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"Paul" wrote in message
news
Hi

I am starting a garden in a new build house, the main part of the
garden measures approx 11M deep X 17M long. This garden is in a windy
seaside location, I have currently laid the whole garden to lawn with
the intention of "carving it up" with some sort of design next spring.

Since the garden is flat and bounded by brick walls and fences I would
like to use plants to soften the these hard edges and give the garden
some height. As a start I would like to plant some standard trees this
autumn, (my wife likes apples).

Any suggestions as to what types of apple tree would be suitable for
my garden, what size should I buy and when should I plant my tree(s).


As others have said, it depend how windy, and how close to the sea.

I live on the Suffolk coast, probably less than a quarter of a mile from the
beach.
[AutoRoute says 400 yards :-)]

The car gets covered with salt drift if the wind is onshore, as do the house
windows.
However this doesn't seem to affect the plants much.
The upside of a seaside location in the reduction in frosts.

I have several fruit trees in the garden;

Victoria plum
Czar plum
Grengage
Bramley apple
Queen Cox apple (which strugggles but does produce amazingly flavoured fruit
in good years).

We also have a crab apple, and the whole area around us is full of mature
trees.

So I would guess that uless you are less than 100 yards from the beach and
with no natural protection from onshore winds then you should be O.K.

I would suggest that it is far more important to know how far North you are,
and on which coast.

On the subject of apples, I would suggest a Bramley for the cooker, and then
one or two eaters, perhaps an early and a late variety.
I have a fondness for Coxes, although they are harder to grow than many.
When you do get a good crop they last well and taste wonderful.
If sound and kept in a fridge in plastic bags (abot 4 to the bag) they can
last through to the new year.

Crab appples, and wild(ish) plum stocks such as Bullace and Damson are
sturdy and can form very effective wind (and view) breaks.
As far as I know they used to be used by commercial growers to form a
windbreak for the main varieties.
They would protect your garden from wind and salt.

Be aware that if you plant apple trees for a privacy barrier that they will
only be effective in summer.

Now is a good time to plant.
I would guess standard or semi-dwarfing root stock if you want a screen from
view.

Space them about a large hammock length apart (future planning).

HTH
Dave R




  #21   Report Post  
Old 03-10-2005, 10:54 PM
david taylor
 
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We now live in Devon about 2km from the sea as the crow flies.
On some stormy nights salt spume-rather like soap suds is blown into our
lane. A bay tree directly exposed is badly damaged by salt, but one 30
metres away, protected by shrubs and a tree is not damaged. Protected apples
and conifers are not damaged, but a row of unprotected Leylandi on the
exposed side is dying.
There was a lot of burn off due to salt damage in the area during a stormy
period about 18 months ago but sheltered plants seemed to survive-this is
why I suggested establishing wind breaks and then planting apple trees.
Cordon apples are quite low and would be protected by a 6 ft hedge. Note
that a hedge will give more effective protection than a wall as it
physically filters salt from the wind and also cuts out downstream eddying.
We visited South Uist in 1970 and the only bush we saw was about 3ft high
and blown out horizontally around 10 ft. so I do think the Hebridean
environment is particularly severe compared to other seaside areas in the
UK.
Regards
David T
"David W.E. Roberts" wrote in message
...

"Paul" wrote in message
news
Hi

I am starting a garden in a new build house, the main part of the
garden measures approx 11M deep X 17M long. This garden is in a windy
seaside location, I have currently laid the whole garden to lawn with
the intention of "carving it up" with some sort of design next spring.

Since the garden is flat and bounded by brick walls and fences I would
like to use plants to soften the these hard edges and give the garden
some height. As a start I would like to plant some standard trees this
autumn, (my wife likes apples).

Any suggestions as to what types of apple tree would be suitable for
my garden, what size should I buy and when should I plant my tree(s).


As others have said, it depend how windy, and how close to the sea.

I live on the Suffolk coast, probably less than a quarter of a mile from
the
beach.
[AutoRoute says 400 yards :-)]

The car gets covered with salt drift if the wind is onshore, as do the
house
windows.
However this doesn't seem to affect the plants much.
The upside of a seaside location in the reduction in frosts.

I have several fruit trees in the garden;

Victoria plum
Czar plum
Grengage
Bramley apple
Queen Cox apple (which strugggles but does produce amazingly flavoured
fruit
in good years).

We also have a crab apple, and the whole area around us is full of mature
trees.

So I would guess that uless you are less than 100 yards from the beach and
with no natural protection from onshore winds then you should be O.K.

I would suggest that it is far more important to know how far North you
are,
and on which coast.

On the subject of apples, I would suggest a Bramley for the cooker, and
then
one or two eaters, perhaps an early and a late variety.
I have a fondness for Coxes, although they are harder to grow than many.
When you do get a good crop they last well and taste wonderful.
If sound and kept in a fridge in plastic bags (abot 4 to the bag) they can
last through to the new year.

Crab appples, and wild(ish) plum stocks such as Bullace and Damson are
sturdy and can form very effective wind (and view) breaks.
As far as I know they used to be used by commercial growers to form a
windbreak for the main varieties.
They would protect your garden from wind and salt.

Be aware that if you plant apple trees for a privacy barrier that they
will
only be effective in summer.

Now is a good time to plant.
I would guess standard or semi-dwarfing root stock if you want a screen
from
view.

Space them about a large hammock length apart (future planning).

HTH
Dave R




  #22   Report Post  
Old 03-10-2005, 10:58 PM
Jaques d'Alltrades
 
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The message
from "David W.E. Roberts" contains these words:

I would suggest that it is far more important to know how far North you are,
and on which coast.


ISTR South West.

On the subject of apples, I would suggest a Bramley for the cooker, and then
one or two eaters, perhaps an early and a late variety.
I have a fondness for Coxes, although they are harder to grow than many.
When you do get a good crop they last well and taste wonderful.
If sound and kept in a fridge in plastic bags (abot 4 to the bag) they can
last through to the new year.


We used to keep Cox's orange pippins until well into spring, kept on
wooden trays in an air-raid shelter when I was a teenager.

--
Rusty
  #23   Report Post  
Old 04-10-2005, 01:42 AM
Andy
 
Posts: n/a
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"david taylor" wrote in message
...
We now live in Devon about 2km from the sea as the crow flies.
On some stormy nights salt spume-rather like soap suds is blown into our
lane. A bay tree directly exposed is badly damaged by salt, but one 30
metres away, protected by shrubs and a tree is not damaged. Protected
apples and conifers are not damaged, but a row of unprotected Leylandi on
the exposed side is dying.
There was a lot of burn off due to salt damage in the area during a stormy
period about 18 months ago but sheltered plants seemed to survive-this is
why I suggested establishing wind breaks and then planting apple trees.
Cordon apples are quite low and would be protected by a 6 ft hedge. Note
that a hedge will give more effective protection than a wall as it
physically filters salt from the wind and also cuts out downstream
eddying.
We visited South Uist in 1970 and the only bush we saw was about 3ft high
and blown out horizontally around 10 ft. so I do think the Hebridean
environment is particularly severe compared to other seaside areas in the
UK.
Regards
David T
"David W.E. Roberts" wrote in message


I live about 2 miles inland ( I'm still Imperial :-) ), and very
occasionally
I get salt on the windows after a big blow, you can see it.

As for cedar trees and apple trees, they cohabit very successfully in my
street, so I can't see this as a problem here.

Andy.



  #24   Report Post  
Old 04-10-2005, 02:31 AM
Rusty Hinge
 
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The message
from "david taylor" contains these words:

We visited South Uist in 1970 and the only bush we saw was about 3ft high
and blown out horizontally around 10 ft. so I do think the Hebridean
environment is particularly severe compared to other seaside areas in the


On average they reckon to get two force 12 or higher winds per year.

It was during one of these that I experienced salt on my lips at 20
miles from the windward coast...

--
Rusty
  #25   Report Post  
Old 04-10-2005, 04:33 AM
Dwayne
 
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And how did Dwayne know that I have a Cedar 100M away.


Paul,

I think it may be worth checking with Dwayne where he got his info from.
He sounded as though he was possibly in the States rather than the UK, and
that may have relevance to his comments.


You are right. I am from the US, and I speak from experience. I planted 4
apple trees about 30 meters South and East of two cedar trees. The
prevailing winds were from the West/North West. Within 2 weeks they started
losing their leaves from cedar blight. After I had the cedars removed, I
had no more problems with it. We moved to another state and I replanted 4
more apple trees that were advertised as resistant to cedar problems, and In
4 years I havent had any problems. Here my neighbors have an abundance of
cedar trees.

All my trees are dwarf or semi dwarf because of wind problems here, and the
size of my yard is smaller. I am also getting too old to be pruning large
trees.

Will pears grow there? How about peaches and apricots? We get late frosts
here that have wiped out most of my fruit crops for the last 2 or 3 years,
but we get a good year every 4 to 6 years and when we do, I will have more
apples, peaches, pears, and plums than I can eat in the next 4 years (I can
a lot of fruit).

Dwayne



Personally, I've never heard about not having apple trees within 2km of a
cedar, but freely admit I've not read everything on the subject

I'm happily growing 4 apples, 1 pear and 1 plum in a windy garden in
N.Wales about 2m (as the crow flies) from the River Dee. Admittedly mine
are (hopefully!) on dwarfing rootstocks, and at only 3 yrs old, are mostly
less than 7 foot tall presently.

Regards,

Sarah





  #26   Report Post  
Old 04-10-2005, 10:36 AM
Paul
 
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On Mon, 3 Oct 2005 18:09:11 +0100, Janet Baraclough
wrote:

The message
from Paul contains these words:

This garden is in a windy
seaside location,


Should'nt have much of a problem with salt spray,


LOL

Janet.

My assumption was made on the observation that as I have been at this
location for three months, and the winds have been strong enough to
blow over my plant pots (18inch dia), I can't taste any salt in the
wind, my garage/shed/car windows don't show any evidence of salt film.
We are sheltered from the direct sea winds.

However should I drive a few hundred yards arond the corner towards
the sea, then yes, the car windows are spotted with salt .

Paul

  #27   Report Post  
Old 04-10-2005, 10:57 AM
Nick Maclaren
 
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In article ,
Rusty Hinge wrote:
The message
from "david taylor" contains these words:

We visited South Uist in 1970 and the only bush we saw was about 3ft high
and blown out horizontally around 10 ft. so I do think the Hebridean
environment is particularly severe compared to other seaside areas in the


On average they reckon to get two force 12 or higher winds per year.

It was during one of these that I experienced salt on my lips at 20
miles from the windward coast...


That's impressive. The best I have done is tasted salt 200+ feet
up in North Cornwall - but that was only a force 10. As the Climate
FAQ says, the wind cline is roughly west-north-west to east-south-east
(though, actually, the Western Isles get more than Ireland), so David
Taylor's deduction is confirmed by the meteorologists.

It's when you get hit in the face by a wet fish that you know its
REALLY blowing :-)


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.
  #28   Report Post  
Old 04-10-2005, 11:43 AM
Jaques d'Alltrades
 
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The message
from Paul contains these words:
On Mon, 3 Oct 2005 18:09:11 +0100, Janet Baraclough
wrote:
The message
from Paul contains these words:

This garden is in a windy
seaside location,


Should'nt have much of a problem with salt spray,


LOL

Janet.

My assumption was made on the observation that as I have been at this
location for three months, and the winds have been strong enough to
blow over my plant pots (18inch dia), I can't taste any salt in the
wind, my garage/shed/car windows don't show any evidence of salt film.
We are sheltered from the direct sea winds.


Three months? choke! Those of us who have lived by the sea may suggest
that you pause for a couple more years before you think of assessing the
liklihood of any maritime influence.

It might even be a decade before a particular set of conditions
coincides, and half the Channel/Bristol Channel pays you a flying
visit...

/choke!

However should I drive a few hundred yards arond the corner towards
the sea, then yes, the car windows are spotted with salt .


What is this 'drive' activity, Earth creature?

--
Rusty
  #29   Report Post  
Old 04-10-2005, 12:07 PM
Jaques d'Alltrades
 
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The message
from (Nick Maclaren) contains these words:

It's when you get hit in the face by a wet fish that you know its
REALLY blowing :-)


You may laugh, but not so very long ago, the inhabitants of one village
on the Isle of Lewis came out after a particularly fierce whirlwind to
find fairly substantial fish strewn over a hillside on the common
grazing.

Whirlwinds can be quite impressive: I was helping on the staff of
Kingsdown Scout Camp one summer, and doing the rounds of site-inspection
with the Bailiff.

There was a rustling sound behind us and we turned to see a swirling
cone of dead grass, litter and suchlike approaching.

It swept down a shallow valley in the land. In its path was an approved
school troop's campsite: a marquee, several other large tents
(Icelandics, IIRC) a big dining shelter kitted out with two lines of
trestle tables, table with urn of tea, and with breakfast laid out -
cornflakes in bowls, ready to accept the milk, egg-cups, plates and
cutlery.

The whole site was plucked from the ground by the whirlwind, and it rose
to a height of at least ten feet just as it had been pitched, and then
as it rose it was folded up into a merry-go-round of canvas, tables,
forms, plates, cornflakes, egg-cups, cutlery, sleeping-bags,
groundsheets, etc, and carried at around twenty feet to the edge of the
campsite - which just happened to be the cliff-edge.

There, the conditions to support the turbulence ceased. I'm afraid the
bailiff and I were in stitches...

Meanwhile, the approved school boys and their Scouters were in the
Ablutions, and the expressions on their faces as they emerged a minute
after the show was over and looked round for their camp were - well -
you guess!

The poor hooters spent the morning on the (sloping) cliff face
recovering most of their belongings.

--
Rusty
  #30   Report Post  
Old 04-10-2005, 01:37 PM
Mike Lyle
 
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Jaques d'Alltrades wrote:
[...]
Whirlwinds can be quite impressive: [...good history snipped...]


Telly the other week actually said Britain was the tornado capital of
the world (cue patriotic music). That must have been in purely
numerical terms, of course: I'm not sure that most cute little Brit
willy-willies would even be counted on the NA Prairies.

--
Mike.


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