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Ollie's Mum 02-02-2006 10:24 AM

Hollyhocks - Clay Soil and Rust Resistance
 
Good morning,
My first post here, so apologies if this has been covered previously - although haven't found anything in the archives.

I'd like to try Hollyhocks this year. I have clay soil and would like a variety with some rust resistance. Please can anyone suggest suitable varieties and suppliers?

Thanks to all who post and share their knowledge, especially those in business who probably have very little free time - I can't imagine running a small nursery leaves a lot of leisure time!

Thank you,
Beth

La Puce 02-02-2006 02:50 PM

Hollyhocks - Clay Soil and Rust Resistance
 

Ollie's Mum wrote:
I'd like to try Hollyhocks this year. I have clay soil and would like
a variety with some rust resistance. Please can anyone suggest
suitable varieties and suppliers?


Alcea rosea from Crocus.com. They tolerate heavy clay soil. I grew
them last year but too close to a fence so they bent fowards to the
light too much :o( Will not do this again!


Rupert 02-02-2006 02:56 PM

Hollyhocks - Clay Soil and Rust Resistance
 

"Ollie's Mum" wrote in message
...

Good morning,
My first post here, so apologies if this has been covered previously -
although haven't found anything in the archives.

I'd like to try Hollyhocks this year. I have clay soil and would like
a variety with some rust resistance. Please can anyone suggest
suitable varieties and suppliers?

Thanks to all who post and share their knowledge, especially those in
business who probably have very little free time - I can't imagine
running a small nursery leaves a lot of leisure time!

Thank you,
Beth


--
Ollie's Mum


You could try these :-
http://plants.thompson-morgan.com/uk...3126/1?SA=1303



La Puce 02-02-2006 03:52 PM

Hollyhocks - Clay Soil and Rust Resistance
 

Rupert wrote:
You could try these :-
http://plants.thompson-morgan.com/uk...3126/1?SA=1303


NO DON'T!!! The anthwerp mixed Alcea ficifolia ARE NOT good on poorly
drained or clay soil !! You are best with the Alcea rosea.


Rupert 02-02-2006 08:32 PM

Hollyhocks - Clay Soil and Rust Resistance
 

"La Puce" wrote in message
oups.com...

Rupert wrote:
You could try these :-
http://plants.thompson-morgan.com/uk...3126/1?SA=1303


NO DON'T!!! The anthwerp mixed Alcea ficifolia ARE NOT good on poorly
drained or clay soil !! You are best with the Alcea rosea.


Alcea ficifolia/Alcea rosea
Majority opinion says they should be treated as members of a single species
.. Ordinary clay soil is not a problem .





Ollie's Mum 04-02-2006 08:35 AM

Hollyhocks - Clay Soil and Rust Resistance
 
Thank you for the hollyhocks information.

Phew - first question wasn't so painful after all!
Thanks
Beth



La Puce 04-02-2006 11:22 AM

Hollyhocks - Clay Soil and Rust Resistance
 

Rupert wrote:

Alcea ficifolia/Alcea rosea
Majority opinion says they should be treated as members of a single species
. Ordinary clay soil is not a problem .


Gardenbanter said that the 'minority says they should be treated ....'.
Have you grown Hollyhocks before Rupert?


Stewart Robert Hinsley 04-02-2006 03:40 PM

Hollyhocks - Clay Soil and Rust Resistance
 
In message .com, La
Puce writes

Rupert wrote:

Alcea ficifolia/Alcea rosea
Majority opinion says they should be treated as members of a single species
. Ordinary clay soil is not a problem .


Gardenbanter said that the 'minority says they should be treated ....'.
Have you grown Hollyhocks before Rupert?

Clapham, Tutin & Warburg separate Alcea rosea and Alcea ficifolia. That
is the only "recent" botanical work that I know of that separates the
two forms. (They also have Alcea x cultorum for hybrid A. rosea x
ficifolia.)

The taxonomy of hollyhocks is surprisingly poorly known - there may be
as many as 70 species, mostly found in Turkey, northern Iraq and Iran.

Wild (as opposed to feral) populations of A. rosea are not reliably
known. CTW suggest that A. rosea is of hybrid origins, of the parentage
A. pallida x A. setosa. I have my doubts about A. setosa as a parent -
reading between the lines of various Middle Eastern floras it's rather
distantly related to A. pallida. (If I manage to get both species
flowering perhaps I'll be able to try hybridising them.)

I suspect that A. rosea is a compilospecies, with contributions from
several species. I am fairly confident that the Ficifolia types at least
have A. rugosa blood in them (the one published DNA sequence for A.
rosea is nearly identical to one for A. rugosa) and it is known that
some others (e.g. 'Majorette') were obtained by (back)crossing to A.
pallida.

I'm pretty sure that the claims that A. rosea originated in China and A.
ficifolia in Siberia are errors.
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley
http://www.malvaceae.info/

La Puce 04-02-2006 08:04 PM

Hollyhocks - Clay Soil and Rust Resistance
 

Stewart Robert Hinsley wrote:

Clapham, Tutin & Warburg separate Alcea rosea and Alcea ficifolia. That
is the only "recent" botanical work that I know of that separates the
two forms. (They also have Alcea x cultorum for hybrid A. rosea x
ficifolia.)


Alcea are very close to the Malva, arent' they? Though they both
require different environment (?)

The taxonomy of hollyhocks is surprisingly poorly known - there may be
as many as 70 species, mostly found in Turkey, northern Iraq and Iran.


(snip)

Your research are so interesting but I wouldn't do them justice as
there are too many. Haven't you thought of extending your work and look
into the Alceas?! Or perhaps you are?

(snip)

I'm pretty sure that the claims that A. rosea originated in China and A.
ficifolia in Siberia are errors.


Hence the different environment you would say?


Rupert 04-02-2006 09:56 PM

Hollyhocks - Clay Soil and Rust Resistance
 

"La Puce" wrote in message
oups.com...

Rupert wrote:

Alcea ficifolia/Alcea rosea
Majority opinion says they should be treated as members of a single
species
. Ordinary clay soil is not a problem .


Gardenbanter said that the 'minority says they should be treated ....'.


Yes and I guess you now know they are wrong.

Have you grown Hollyhocks before Rupert?


Yes many years ago. Gave up because they really were biennials and I never
got another year out of them. Much nicer effect with Abutilon which is non
deciduous and can be grown to several metres high. Supposedly not frost
hardy but it grows well here in my part of West Yorkshire. I think it's
Tennants (sp) white. Fabulous plant flowers early so in that sense it's not
the best substitute for Hollyhocks.






Stewart Robert Hinsley 04-02-2006 10:25 PM

Hollyhocks - Clay Soil and Rust Resistance
 
In message , Rupert
writes

"La Puce" wrote in message
roups.com...

Rupert wrote:

Alcea ficifolia/Alcea rosea
Majority opinion says they should be treated as members of a single
species
. Ordinary clay soil is not a problem .


Gardenbanter said that the 'minority says they should be treated ....'.


Yes and I guess you now know they are wrong.

Have you grown Hollyhocks before Rupert?


Yes many years ago. Gave up because they really were biennials and I never
got another year out of them. Much nicer effect with Abutilon which is non
deciduous and can be grown to several metres high. Supposedly not frost
hardy but it grows well here in my part of West Yorkshire. I think it's
Tennants (sp) white. Fabulous plant flowers early so in that sense it's not
the best substitute for Hollyhocks.


The usual Abutilons are A. megapotamicum and A. x hybridum. These are
rather frost-sensitive - last year the ones in my allotment didn't
actually die, but they weren't interested in growing the next year,
while the ones kept in pots near the house came through OK.

Tennant's White is a Corynabutilon vitifolium. (This is another case
where gardeners haven't caught up with the botanists.) Corynabutilons
are from southern South America (including Chile) and are rather hardier
than A. megapotamicum and related species. (A. megapotamicum is from
southern Brazil; I think it's named after the Rio Grande do Sul.)

(After chopping off bits of the genus there's reputedly 160 species left
in Abutilon, but I wouldn't be surprised to find that it's polyphyletic;
the other big genus - Sida - has been found to be so, but Abutilon has
been less studied.)
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley
http://www.malvaceae.info/Genera/Abutilon/gallery.html
http://www.malvaceae.info/Genera/Cor...n/gallery.html

La Puce 05-02-2006 03:19 PM

Hollyhocks - Clay Soil and Rust Resistance
 

Rupert wrote:

Gardenbanter said that the 'minority says they should be treated ....'.


Yes and I guess you now know they are wrong.

No. You wrote the 'majority' when in fact gardenbanter wrote 'the
minority'.

Have you grown Hollyhocks before Rupert?


Yes many years ago.


I don't want an argument :o) But every single time you write, you say
'years ago I planted this' or 'never planted it' or 'I move things in
full bloom knowing it's wrong' or 'link to google'.

My question is simple, what do you grow NOW and how long have you been
a gardener?

Gave up because they really were biennials

According to this thread we've found out they're not.

and I never
got another year out of them. Much nicer effect with Abutilon which is non
deciduous and can be grown to several metres high.


Have you tried this or have you read it somewhere?

Supposedly not frost
hardy but it grows well here in my part of West Yorkshire. I think it's
Tennants (sp) white. Fabulous plant flowers early so in that sense it's not
the best substitute for Hollyhocks.


Have you tried it or have you just seen it growing. I'm asking because
you see I know that some hollyhocks simply won't grow in clay soil,
hence me saying to Ollie's mum they will not because I have tried them.
Now have you of have you just read it somewhere.


Rusty Hinge 2 05-02-2006 04:01 PM

Hollyhocks - Clay Soil and Rust Resistance
 
The message
from "Rupert" contains these words:

Yes many years ago. Gave up because they really were biennials


No they're not.

--
Rusty
Direct reply to: horrid dot squeak snailything zetnet point co period uk
Separator in search of a sig

Rupert 05-02-2006 05:17 PM

Hollyhocks - Clay Soil and Rust Resistance
 

"La Puce" wrote in message
oups.com...

Rupert wrote:

Gardenbanter said that the 'minority says they should be treated ....'.


Yes and I guess you now know they are wrong.

No. You wrote the 'majority' when in fact gardenbanter wrote 'the
minority'.


I say Gardenbanter is wrong. Read a bit more about the subject and have a
look at SRH's work and that of others and the haze will clear.

Have you grown Hollyhocks before Rupert?


Yes many years ago.


I don't want an argument :o) But every single time you write, you say
'years ago I planted this' or 'never planted it' or 'I move things in
full bloom knowing it's wrong' or 'link to google'.

My question is simple, what do you grow NOW and how long have you been
a gardener?


Moving most perennials when in full bloom is not rocket science but does
require an elementary knowledge which you will acquire in due course.
Gardening is not about *now*. What you grew last year and decades ago is
IMHO what counts towards knowledge

Gave up because they really were biennials

According to this thread we've found out they're not.


Can't actually find the bit in this thread about biennials--are you getting
mixed up with Echiums which you wrongly said were biennials?

.. .Much nicer effect with Abutilon
Supposedly not frost
hardy but it grows well here in my part of West Yorkshire. I think it's
Tennants (sp) white. Fabulous plant flowers early so in that sense it's
not
the best substitute for Hollyhocks


Have you tried it or have you just seen it growing. I'm asking because
you see I know that some hollyhocks simply won't grow in clay soil,
hence me saying to Ollie's mum they will not because I have tried them.
Now have you of have you just read it somewhere.


I think you have lost the plot. Hollyhocks and Abutilon are not the same
plant
I have grown Hollyhocks on a clay soil. My planting technique is obviously
different and in this case better than yours.
Corynabutilon vitifolium Tennants white is what I am now growing (according
to SRH).




Stewart Robert Hinsley 05-02-2006 05:41 PM

Hollyhocks - Clay Soil and Rust Resistance
 
In message .com, La
Puce writes

Rupert wrote:

Gardenbanter said that the 'minority says they should be treated ....'.


Yes and I guess you now know they are wrong.

No. You wrote the 'majority' when in fact gardenbanter wrote 'the
minority'.


Googling, the only hit on Alcea ficifolia on the gardenbanter.co.uk site
is a copy of a post by me to u.r.g. In which I say that the two species
model is a minority opinion; that is equivalent to Rupert's original
statement that majority opinion is that the Ficifolia Group belongs to
Alcea rosea.

It would appear that Rupert is wrong in saying GardenBanter is wrong,
and you are wrong in claiming that it disagrees with him.

Have you grown Hollyhocks before Rupert?


Yes many years ago.


I don't want an argument :o) But every single time you write, you say
'years ago I planted this' or 'never planted it' or 'I move things in
full bloom knowing it's wrong' or 'link to google'.

My question is simple, what do you grow NOW and how long have you been
a gardener?

Gave up because they really were biennials


Hollyhocks are annuals, biennials or short-lived perennials. Alcea rosea
is mostly a short-lived perennial, often treated as a biennial. (Alcea
'Majorette' is supposed to be an annual - it didn't work for me last
year.) It is said that hollyhock rust commonly makes them not worth
growing for a 3rd season. (I find that rust attacks Malva sylvestris
more than Alcea rosea, but I presume there's different strains which
grow better on different host plants - a neighbour had his musk-mallows
wiped out in 2004, and I had thought that musk-mallows were pretty
immune.) I'm quite willing to believe that Alcea rosea is monocarpic
(biennial) under some conditions.

According to this thread we've found out they're not.

and I never
got another year out of them. Much nicer effect with Abutilon which is non
deciduous and can be grown to several metres high.


Have you tried this or have you read it somewhere?


The Corynabutilon that he refers to is evergreen (I've got some
seedlings with their leaves still on, and I saw some in leaf at Ness
Botanic Gardens a few or so days back). Abutilon megapotamicum and A. x
hybridum and its parents are, I believe, evergreen in their natural
environment - in the UK they're evergreen as an indoor plant, but not
reliably evergreen (or hardy) out of doors.

Supposedly not frost
hardy but it grows well here in my part of West Yorkshire. I think it's
Tennants (sp) white. Fabulous plant flowers early so in that sense it's not
the best substitute for Hollyhocks.


Have you tried it or have you just seen it growing. I'm asking because
you see I know that some hollyhocks simply won't grow in clay soil,
hence me saying to Ollie's mum they will not because I have tried them.
Now have you of have you just read it somewhere.

I haven't succeeded in growing *any* hollyhocks in heavy, wet, clay,
including non-Ficifolia types.
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley
http://www.malvaceae.info/


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