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Hollyhocks - Clay Soil and Rust Resistance
Good morning,
My first post here, so apologies if this has been covered previously - although haven't found anything in the archives. I'd like to try Hollyhocks this year. I have clay soil and would like a variety with some rust resistance. Please can anyone suggest suitable varieties and suppliers? Thanks to all who post and share their knowledge, especially those in business who probably have very little free time - I can't imagine running a small nursery leaves a lot of leisure time! Thank you, Beth |
Hollyhocks - Clay Soil and Rust Resistance
Ollie's Mum wrote: I'd like to try Hollyhocks this year. I have clay soil and would like a variety with some rust resistance. Please can anyone suggest suitable varieties and suppliers? Alcea rosea from Crocus.com. They tolerate heavy clay soil. I grew them last year but too close to a fence so they bent fowards to the light too much :o( Will not do this again! |
Hollyhocks - Clay Soil and Rust Resistance
"Ollie's Mum" wrote in message ... Good morning, My first post here, so apologies if this has been covered previously - although haven't found anything in the archives. I'd like to try Hollyhocks this year. I have clay soil and would like a variety with some rust resistance. Please can anyone suggest suitable varieties and suppliers? Thanks to all who post and share their knowledge, especially those in business who probably have very little free time - I can't imagine running a small nursery leaves a lot of leisure time! Thank you, Beth -- Ollie's Mum You could try these :- http://plants.thompson-morgan.com/uk...3126/1?SA=1303 |
Hollyhocks - Clay Soil and Rust Resistance
Rupert wrote: You could try these :- http://plants.thompson-morgan.com/uk...3126/1?SA=1303 NO DON'T!!! The anthwerp mixed Alcea ficifolia ARE NOT good on poorly drained or clay soil !! You are best with the Alcea rosea. |
Hollyhocks - Clay Soil and Rust Resistance
"La Puce" wrote in message oups.com... Rupert wrote: You could try these :- http://plants.thompson-morgan.com/uk...3126/1?SA=1303 NO DON'T!!! The anthwerp mixed Alcea ficifolia ARE NOT good on poorly drained or clay soil !! You are best with the Alcea rosea. Alcea ficifolia/Alcea rosea Majority opinion says they should be treated as members of a single species .. Ordinary clay soil is not a problem . |
Hollyhocks - Clay Soil and Rust Resistance
Thank you for the hollyhocks information.
Phew - first question wasn't so painful after all! Thanks Beth |
Hollyhocks - Clay Soil and Rust Resistance
Rupert wrote: Alcea ficifolia/Alcea rosea Majority opinion says they should be treated as members of a single species . Ordinary clay soil is not a problem . Gardenbanter said that the 'minority says they should be treated ....'. Have you grown Hollyhocks before Rupert? |
Hollyhocks - Clay Soil and Rust Resistance
In message .com, La
Puce writes Rupert wrote: Alcea ficifolia/Alcea rosea Majority opinion says they should be treated as members of a single species . Ordinary clay soil is not a problem . Gardenbanter said that the 'minority says they should be treated ....'. Have you grown Hollyhocks before Rupert? Clapham, Tutin & Warburg separate Alcea rosea and Alcea ficifolia. That is the only "recent" botanical work that I know of that separates the two forms. (They also have Alcea x cultorum for hybrid A. rosea x ficifolia.) The taxonomy of hollyhocks is surprisingly poorly known - there may be as many as 70 species, mostly found in Turkey, northern Iraq and Iran. Wild (as opposed to feral) populations of A. rosea are not reliably known. CTW suggest that A. rosea is of hybrid origins, of the parentage A. pallida x A. setosa. I have my doubts about A. setosa as a parent - reading between the lines of various Middle Eastern floras it's rather distantly related to A. pallida. (If I manage to get both species flowering perhaps I'll be able to try hybridising them.) I suspect that A. rosea is a compilospecies, with contributions from several species. I am fairly confident that the Ficifolia types at least have A. rugosa blood in them (the one published DNA sequence for A. rosea is nearly identical to one for A. rugosa) and it is known that some others (e.g. 'Majorette') were obtained by (back)crossing to A. pallida. I'm pretty sure that the claims that A. rosea originated in China and A. ficifolia in Siberia are errors. -- Stewart Robert Hinsley http://www.malvaceae.info/ |
Hollyhocks - Clay Soil and Rust Resistance
Stewart Robert Hinsley wrote: Clapham, Tutin & Warburg separate Alcea rosea and Alcea ficifolia. That is the only "recent" botanical work that I know of that separates the two forms. (They also have Alcea x cultorum for hybrid A. rosea x ficifolia.) Alcea are very close to the Malva, arent' they? Though they both require different environment (?) The taxonomy of hollyhocks is surprisingly poorly known - there may be as many as 70 species, mostly found in Turkey, northern Iraq and Iran. (snip) Your research are so interesting but I wouldn't do them justice as there are too many. Haven't you thought of extending your work and look into the Alceas?! Or perhaps you are? (snip) I'm pretty sure that the claims that A. rosea originated in China and A. ficifolia in Siberia are errors. Hence the different environment you would say? |
Hollyhocks - Clay Soil and Rust Resistance
"La Puce" wrote in message oups.com... Rupert wrote: Alcea ficifolia/Alcea rosea Majority opinion says they should be treated as members of a single species . Ordinary clay soil is not a problem . Gardenbanter said that the 'minority says they should be treated ....'. Yes and I guess you now know they are wrong. Have you grown Hollyhocks before Rupert? Yes many years ago. Gave up because they really were biennials and I never got another year out of them. Much nicer effect with Abutilon which is non deciduous and can be grown to several metres high. Supposedly not frost hardy but it grows well here in my part of West Yorkshire. I think it's Tennants (sp) white. Fabulous plant flowers early so in that sense it's not the best substitute for Hollyhocks. |
Hollyhocks - Clay Soil and Rust Resistance
In message , Rupert
writes "La Puce" wrote in message roups.com... Rupert wrote: Alcea ficifolia/Alcea rosea Majority opinion says they should be treated as members of a single species . Ordinary clay soil is not a problem . Gardenbanter said that the 'minority says they should be treated ....'. Yes and I guess you now know they are wrong. Have you grown Hollyhocks before Rupert? Yes many years ago. Gave up because they really were biennials and I never got another year out of them. Much nicer effect with Abutilon which is non deciduous and can be grown to several metres high. Supposedly not frost hardy but it grows well here in my part of West Yorkshire. I think it's Tennants (sp) white. Fabulous plant flowers early so in that sense it's not the best substitute for Hollyhocks. The usual Abutilons are A. megapotamicum and A. x hybridum. These are rather frost-sensitive - last year the ones in my allotment didn't actually die, but they weren't interested in growing the next year, while the ones kept in pots near the house came through OK. Tennant's White is a Corynabutilon vitifolium. (This is another case where gardeners haven't caught up with the botanists.) Corynabutilons are from southern South America (including Chile) and are rather hardier than A. megapotamicum and related species. (A. megapotamicum is from southern Brazil; I think it's named after the Rio Grande do Sul.) (After chopping off bits of the genus there's reputedly 160 species left in Abutilon, but I wouldn't be surprised to find that it's polyphyletic; the other big genus - Sida - has been found to be so, but Abutilon has been less studied.) -- Stewart Robert Hinsley http://www.malvaceae.info/Genera/Abutilon/gallery.html http://www.malvaceae.info/Genera/Cor...n/gallery.html |
Hollyhocks - Clay Soil and Rust Resistance
Rupert wrote: Gardenbanter said that the 'minority says they should be treated ....'. Yes and I guess you now know they are wrong. No. You wrote the 'majority' when in fact gardenbanter wrote 'the minority'. Have you grown Hollyhocks before Rupert? Yes many years ago. I don't want an argument :o) But every single time you write, you say 'years ago I planted this' or 'never planted it' or 'I move things in full bloom knowing it's wrong' or 'link to google'. My question is simple, what do you grow NOW and how long have you been a gardener? Gave up because they really were biennials According to this thread we've found out they're not. and I never got another year out of them. Much nicer effect with Abutilon which is non deciduous and can be grown to several metres high. Have you tried this or have you read it somewhere? Supposedly not frost hardy but it grows well here in my part of West Yorkshire. I think it's Tennants (sp) white. Fabulous plant flowers early so in that sense it's not the best substitute for Hollyhocks. Have you tried it or have you just seen it growing. I'm asking because you see I know that some hollyhocks simply won't grow in clay soil, hence me saying to Ollie's mum they will not because I have tried them. Now have you of have you just read it somewhere. |
Hollyhocks - Clay Soil and Rust Resistance
The message
from "Rupert" contains these words: Yes many years ago. Gave up because they really were biennials No they're not. -- Rusty Direct reply to: horrid dot squeak snailything zetnet point co period uk Separator in search of a sig |
Hollyhocks - Clay Soil and Rust Resistance
"La Puce" wrote in message oups.com... Rupert wrote: Gardenbanter said that the 'minority says they should be treated ....'. Yes and I guess you now know they are wrong. No. You wrote the 'majority' when in fact gardenbanter wrote 'the minority'. I say Gardenbanter is wrong. Read a bit more about the subject and have a look at SRH's work and that of others and the haze will clear. Have you grown Hollyhocks before Rupert? Yes many years ago. I don't want an argument :o) But every single time you write, you say 'years ago I planted this' or 'never planted it' or 'I move things in full bloom knowing it's wrong' or 'link to google'. My question is simple, what do you grow NOW and how long have you been a gardener? Moving most perennials when in full bloom is not rocket science but does require an elementary knowledge which you will acquire in due course. Gardening is not about *now*. What you grew last year and decades ago is IMHO what counts towards knowledge Gave up because they really were biennials According to this thread we've found out they're not. Can't actually find the bit in this thread about biennials--are you getting mixed up with Echiums which you wrongly said were biennials? .. .Much nicer effect with Abutilon Supposedly not frost hardy but it grows well here in my part of West Yorkshire. I think it's Tennants (sp) white. Fabulous plant flowers early so in that sense it's not the best substitute for Hollyhocks Have you tried it or have you just seen it growing. I'm asking because you see I know that some hollyhocks simply won't grow in clay soil, hence me saying to Ollie's mum they will not because I have tried them. Now have you of have you just read it somewhere. I think you have lost the plot. Hollyhocks and Abutilon are not the same plant I have grown Hollyhocks on a clay soil. My planting technique is obviously different and in this case better than yours. Corynabutilon vitifolium Tennants white is what I am now growing (according to SRH). |
Hollyhocks - Clay Soil and Rust Resistance
In message .com, La
Puce writes Rupert wrote: Gardenbanter said that the 'minority says they should be treated ....'. Yes and I guess you now know they are wrong. No. You wrote the 'majority' when in fact gardenbanter wrote 'the minority'. Googling, the only hit on Alcea ficifolia on the gardenbanter.co.uk site is a copy of a post by me to u.r.g. In which I say that the two species model is a minority opinion; that is equivalent to Rupert's original statement that majority opinion is that the Ficifolia Group belongs to Alcea rosea. It would appear that Rupert is wrong in saying GardenBanter is wrong, and you are wrong in claiming that it disagrees with him. Have you grown Hollyhocks before Rupert? Yes many years ago. I don't want an argument :o) But every single time you write, you say 'years ago I planted this' or 'never planted it' or 'I move things in full bloom knowing it's wrong' or 'link to google'. My question is simple, what do you grow NOW and how long have you been a gardener? Gave up because they really were biennials Hollyhocks are annuals, biennials or short-lived perennials. Alcea rosea is mostly a short-lived perennial, often treated as a biennial. (Alcea 'Majorette' is supposed to be an annual - it didn't work for me last year.) It is said that hollyhock rust commonly makes them not worth growing for a 3rd season. (I find that rust attacks Malva sylvestris more than Alcea rosea, but I presume there's different strains which grow better on different host plants - a neighbour had his musk-mallows wiped out in 2004, and I had thought that musk-mallows were pretty immune.) I'm quite willing to believe that Alcea rosea is monocarpic (biennial) under some conditions. According to this thread we've found out they're not. and I never got another year out of them. Much nicer effect with Abutilon which is non deciduous and can be grown to several metres high. Have you tried this or have you read it somewhere? The Corynabutilon that he refers to is evergreen (I've got some seedlings with their leaves still on, and I saw some in leaf at Ness Botanic Gardens a few or so days back). Abutilon megapotamicum and A. x hybridum and its parents are, I believe, evergreen in their natural environment - in the UK they're evergreen as an indoor plant, but not reliably evergreen (or hardy) out of doors. Supposedly not frost hardy but it grows well here in my part of West Yorkshire. I think it's Tennants (sp) white. Fabulous plant flowers early so in that sense it's not the best substitute for Hollyhocks. Have you tried it or have you just seen it growing. I'm asking because you see I know that some hollyhocks simply won't grow in clay soil, hence me saying to Ollie's mum they will not because I have tried them. Now have you of have you just read it somewhere. I haven't succeeded in growing *any* hollyhocks in heavy, wet, clay, including non-Ficifolia types. -- Stewart Robert Hinsley http://www.malvaceae.info/ |
Hollyhocks - Clay Soil and Rust Resistance
In message , Rupert
writes I say Gardenbanter is wrong. Read a bit more about the subject and have a look at SRH's work and that of others and the haze will clear. s/wrong/misreported/ -- Stewart Robert Hinsley |
Hollyhocks - Clay Soil and Rust Resistance
"Rusty Hinge 2" wrote in message k... The message from "Rupert" contains these words: Yes many years ago. Gave up because they really were biennials No they're not. -- Rusty Direct reply to: horrid dot squeak snailything zetnet point co period uk Separator in search of a sig They were for me on a clay soil ;-) |
Hollyhocks - Clay Soil and Rust Resistance
Rupert wrote: I say Gardenbanter is wrong. Read a bit more about the subject and have a look at SRH's work and that of others and the haze will clear. You don't need to be patronising. I'm saying you gave a wrong info about the hollyhocks. The Antwerp collection is not good in heavy clay soil. End of story. I think you've just google and send a link to Thomson and Morgan seeds to Ollie's mum without knowing if they were suitable in clay soil. That's all. That's not an answer and you don't need to be patronising. Gardening is not about *now*. When is gardening about then? Every year is a different year. That's the beauty of it really. What you grew last year and decades ago is IMHO what counts towards knowledge Indeed. But I'm only asking what you have been doing say the last 5 years. Can't actually find the bit in this thread about biennials--are you getting mixed up with Echiums which you wrongly said were biennials? No. You've said you've grown hollyhocks many years ago but gave up because they were biennals. See below. Rupert wrote: Alcea ficifolia/Alcea rosea Majority opinion says they should be treated as members of a single species . Ordinary clay soil is not a problem . Gardenbanter said that the 'minority says they should be treated ....'. Yes and I guess you now know they are wrong. Have you grown Hollyhocks before Rupert? Yes many years ago. Gave up because they really were biennials and I never got another year out of them. Much nicer effect with Abutilon which is non deciduous and can be grown to several metres high. Supposedly not frost hardy but it grows well here in my part of West Yorkshire. I think it's Tennants (sp) white. Fabulous plant flowers early so in that sense it's not the best substitute for Hollyhocks. Rusty just told you they're not before this post too. As for the Echiums, they are very special indeed. In the UK Echium pininana is monocarpic (dies after flowering) and not biennial, as Dave Poole said. However, in very hot climate they grow and flower on the same year, as explained by Sacha later on. So perhaps I was wrong, but with the hollyhocks you are too :o) I think you have lost the plot. Hollyhocks and Abutilon are not the same plant Never said they were. I have grown Hollyhocks on a clay soil. My planting technique is obviously different and in this case better than yours. Which ones, beside the Rosea you have grown in clay soil? |
Hollyhocks - Clay Soil and Rust Resistance
"La Puce" wrote in message oups.com... Rupert wrote: Snip I have grown Hollyhocks on a clay soil. My planting technique is obviously different and in this case better than yours. Which ones, beside the Rosea you have grown in clay soil? I think that is now a bit irrelevant and I don't know anyway. You said Crocus.com sell Hollyhocks which do well on a heavy clay soil. I have grown some sort of hollyhocks on a clay soil and far as I know the cultural requirements of both the types we have talked about are the same. SRH has had no success with either type on a heavy clay soil. At least we both now know they are annuals, biennials and perennials;-) Perhaps we should ask "Ollie's Mum" what sort of clay soil she has. |
Hollyhocks - Clay Soil and Rust Resistance
Rupert wrote: I think that is now a bit irrelevant and I don't know anyway. You said Crocus.com sell Hollyhocks which do well on a heavy clay soil. I have grown some sort of hollyhocks on a clay soil and far as I know the cultural requirements of both the types we have talked about are the same. SRH has had no success with either type on a heavy clay soil. At least we both now know they are annuals, biennials and perennials;-) Perhaps we should ask "Ollie's Mum" what sort of clay soil she has. Ok. |
Hollyhocks - Clay Soil and Rust Resistance
The message
from Stewart Robert Hinsley contains these words: Hollyhocks are annuals, biennials or short-lived perennials. From around 1944 until we left the house in 1950 there were several hollyhock plants beside our porch. Plants, not a series of them. They same colours in the same spots. /snip/ I haven't succeeded in growing *any* hollyhocks in heavy, wet, clay, including non-Ficifolia types. I have offered Ollie's Mum some seeds from a hollyhock which I found growing in heavy Norfolk soil - you could almost make pots with it. -- Rusty Direct reply to: horrid dot squeak snailything zetnet point co period uk Separator in search of a sig |
Hollyhocks - Clay Soil and Rust Resistance
The message
from "Rupert" contains these words: "Rusty Hinge 2" wrote in message k... The message from "Rupert" contains these words: Yes many years ago. Gave up because they really were biennials No they're not. Separator in search of a sig They were for me on a clay soil ;-) And on a garden of heavy yellow London Clay the same stand of hollyhocks returned year after year from 1944 till at least 1950, and I'd guess that they were originally planted pre-war. -- Rusty Direct reply to: horrid dot squeak snailything zetnet point co period uk Separator in search of a sig |
Hollyhocks - Clay Soil and Rust Resistance
In message , Rusty Hinge
2 writes The message from Stewart Robert Hinsley contains these words: Hollyhocks are annuals, biennials or short-lived perennials. From around 1944 until we left the house in 1950 there were several hollyhock plants beside our porch. Plants, not a series of them. They same colours in the same spots. Six years probably still counts as short-lived, but it's not bad for a hollyhock in my experience. (OTOH, the Hollyhock Border at Powis Castle has been there a few years, and I suspect that the turnover of plants there is fairly low.) Then again, IIRC, you've said that Malva sylvestris is rather more perennial in your neck of the woods than mine. /snip/ I haven't succeeded in growing *any* hollyhocks in heavy, wet, clay, including non-Ficifolia types. I have offered Ollie's Mum some seeds from a hollyhock which I found growing in heavy Norfolk soil - you could almost make pots with it. I suspect that my problem may be as much wet as clay. But I've done better growing them in pots, or in the allotment (which is still a bit wet (in winter) and heavy, but nowhere as bad as my garden). -- Stewart Robert Hinsley |
Hollyhocks - Clay Soil and Rust Resistance
Rusty Hinge 2 wrote: I have offered Ollie's Mum some seeds from a hollyhock which I found growing in heavy Norfolk soil - you could almost make pots with it. You are such a lovely fellow, you really are. I've been admiring those ones for a few years now. They remind me of home - very sandy soil though ;o) http://cjoint.com/?cfxrDKhrgL |
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