Apologies from the outset if some people don't see this as the correct
newsgroup for the following rant. I have however observed some very sensible
people on the group with commonsense advice. Moreover, imo, people who
engage themselves in gardening for food generally display some environmental
awareness. If the topic isn't appropriate I will take it elsewhere. Also,
apologies if my language gets too strong for any.

I am despondent at present about the way we treat our earth. We pollute our
soil, our water and our air. We spread toxic crap onto the earth, we spread
vast amounts of chemicals where we please and farm to deplete the topsoil.

We flush all manner of crap in to our water ways and we draw off vast
amounts of water to sustain our, imo unsustainable, lifestyles.

We pump huge amounts of pollution into our air, we suffer air degredation
and poisoining as a result.

We create huge amounts of waste, much of it petroleum based, with our throw
away lifestyles. I see people landfilling green waste, the earth is awash
with plastic bags, we consume things with a shelf life of years or even
months.

Not content with that we encroach into the few nature areas we have left
through deforestation, deep water bottom trawling and the draining of wet
lands.

A term used is environmental tipping point, where the earth simply gives up.
When does gradual degredation turn to breaking point. How big an ecological
footprint do people want.

If anyone has basic commonsense solutions to some of these issues, ones you
can apply to your household, please feel free to raise them. Maybe I will
learn something I can do to lessen my impact and reduce my ecological
footprint. Thanks for your patience.

rob

rob don't worry. The Earth has been here for 36,000,000,000 years give or
take a year or two and man has only been here the thickness of a coat of
paint. Nothing, repeat nothing man can do will destroy this earth, spoilt it
yes, but like all wounds, it will heal.

Come back in 36 thousand million years and there will be no sign of man's
short inhabitance and everything will be OK

:-))

Mike

"Mike" wrote in message
...
rob don't worry. The Earth has been here for 36,000,000,000 years give or
take a year or two and man has only been here the thickness of a coat of
paint. Nothing, repeat nothing man can do will destroy this earth, spoilt
it
yes, but like all wounds, it will heal.

Come back in 36 thousand million years and there will be no sign of man's
short inhabitance and everything will be OK

:-))
Mike

a point of clarification required to my post Mike. Exactly, the earth will
exist in some way beyond our existence. My angst is us living within its
carrying capacity as opposed to forcing an ecological melt down that all but
sends us back to the stone age, thereby giving the earth time and space to
recover from our stupidity. The issue of us pulling back before we do root
our future existence is the focus of my post.

rob

a point of clarification required to my post Mike. Exactly, the earth will
exist in some way beyond our existence. My angst is us living within its
carrying capacity as opposed to forcing an ecological melt down that all
but
sends us back to the stone age, thereby giving the earth time and space to
recover from our stupidity. The issue of us pulling back before we do root
our future existence is the focus of my post.

rob



Get rid of money then :-))

George.com wrote:
"Mike" wrote in message
...
rob don't worry. The Earth has been here for 36,000,000,000 years give or
take a year or two and man has only been here the thickness of a coat of
paint. Nothing, repeat nothing man can do will destroy this earth, spoilt
it
yes, but like all wounds, it will heal.

Come back in 36 thousand million years and there will be no sign of man's
short inhabitance and everything will be OK

:-))
Mike

a point of clarification required to my post Mike. Exactly, the earth will
exist in some way beyond our existence. My angst is us living within its
carrying capacity as opposed to forcing an ecological melt down that all but
sends us back to the stone age, thereby giving the earth time and space to
recover from our stupidity. The issue of us pulling back before we do root
our future existence is the focus of my post.

I'm very sympathetic to your pov and I think that people are becoming
more and more aware of the need to respect the world in which we live
AND its resources. However, I think too, that to all too many such
thinking is a luxury because poverty does not tend to enable grand
gestures. Nor of course, does greed. I don't begin to have any
answers to this but when you have people destroyng rain forest so that
they can have land to farm on or timber to sell and at the other end of
the scale, a country like USA refusing to sign up to the Kyoto treaty,
there's still one helluva struggle going on. Nonetheless, I'm an
optimist and I think people in the 'enlightened' world are beginning to
get there.
--
Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon

.. Nonetheless, I'm an
optimist and I think people in the 'enlightened' world are beginning to
get there.
--
Sacha


You must be joking or have your head in the sand. Maybe both.

The message
from "George.com" contains these words:

Apologies from the outset if some people don't see this as the correct
newsgroup for the following rant. I have however observed some very sensible
people on the group with commonsense advice. Moreover, imo, people who
engage themselves in gardening for food generally display some environmental
awareness. If the topic isn't appropriate I will take it elsewhere. Also,
apologies if my language gets too strong for any.

I am despondent at present about the way we treat our earth. We pollute our
soil, our water and our air. We spread toxic crap onto the earth, we spread
vast amounts of chemicals where we please and farm to deplete the topsoil.

We flush all manner of crap in to our water ways and we draw off vast
amounts of water to sustain our, imo unsustainable, lifestyles.

We pump huge amounts of pollution into our air, we suffer air degredation
and poisoining as a result.

We create huge amounts of waste, much of it petroleum based, with our throw
away lifestyles. I see people landfilling green waste, the earth is awash
with plastic bags, we consume things with a shelf life of years or even
months.

Not content with that we encroach into the few nature areas we have left
through deforestation, deep water bottom trawling and the draining of wet
lands.

A term used is environmental tipping point, where the earth simply gives up.
When does gradual degredation turn to breaking point. How big an ecological
footprint do people want.

If anyone has basic commonsense solutions to some of these issues, ones you
can apply to your household, please feel free to raise them. Maybe I will
learn something I can do to lessen my impact and reduce my ecological
footprint. Thanks for your patience.

rob

Once we have burnt all the oil in around 30 or 40 years. That will make
us stop and think just a wee bit more.

"Sacha" wrote in message
oups.com...

George.com wrote:
"Mike" wrote in message
...
rob don't worry. The Earth has been here for 36,000,000,000 years give
or
take a year or two and man has only been here the thickness of a coat
of
paint. Nothing, repeat nothing man can do will destroy this earth,
spoilt
it
yes, but like all wounds, it will heal.

Come back in 36 thousand million years and there will be no sign of
man's
short inhabitance and everything will be OK

:-))
Mike

a point of clarification required to my post Mike. Exactly, the earth
will
exist in some way beyond our existence. My angst is us living within its
carrying capacity as opposed to forcing an ecological melt down that all
but
sends us back to the stone age, thereby giving the earth time and space
to
recover from our stupidity. The issue of us pulling back before we do
root
our future existence is the focus of my post.

I'm very sympathetic to your pov and I think that people are becoming
more and more aware of the need to respect the world in which we live
AND its resources. However, I think too, that to all too many such
thinking is a luxury because poverty does not tend to enable grand
gestures. Nor of course, does greed. I don't begin to have any
answers to this but when you have people destroyng rain forest so that
they can have land to farm on or timber to sell and at the other end of
the scale, a country like USA refusing to sign up to the Kyoto treaty,
there's still one helluva struggle going on. Nonetheless, I'm an
optimist and I think people in the 'enlightened' world are beginning to
get there.

too slow, way to slow at present rates I believe to turn round the mess we
have made. Sure, people are becoming aware and efforts are being made to
clean up some of the damage we have done but that doesn't counter balance
the continuing degredation going on around us all. I am more aware than many
and I am changing basic things but my lifestyle is masisvely unsustainable.
The lack of significant change frustrates the hell out of me. My wife brings
back fking plastic bags from the super market by the truck load and doesn't
even think about it despite all the times I tell her not to. Its ingrained
in collective psyches. It makes me want to throw a brick through someones
window.

rob

too slow, way to slow at present rates I believe to turn round the mess we
have made. Sure, people are becoming aware and efforts are being made to
clean up some of the damage we have done but that doesn't counter balance
the continuing degredation going on around us all. I am more aware than
many
and I am changing basic things but my lifestyle is masisvely
unsustainable.
The lack of significant change frustrates the hell out of me. My wife
brings
back fking plastic bags from the super market by the truck load and
doesn't
even think about it despite all the times I tell her not to. Its ingrained
in collective psyches. It makes me want to throw a brick through someones
window.

rob



rob I was recently on a World Cruise and called in at Port Kelang in
Malaysia to visit Kuala Lumpur and the road from Port Kelang to KA, the
journey takes about an hour, 'was' lined on both sides with Rubber
plantations. I say 'was' because for as far as the eye can see, these have
been grubbed out, the land built up and houses and houses, and flats and
flats and factories and factories are being built. The UK is no longer the
manufacturing nation of the world, hasn't been for a long time and what was
left, Maggie Thatcher destroyed, the manufacturing is over on the other side
of the world and that is why they are ripping the place up to build houses,
factories and accommodation.

But think on a bit, all of these rubber plantations ripped out. Synthetic
unbiodegradeable plastic to replace it? Adding to your concerns? and Sacha
says we are now considering the environment more? To coin an ex net nannies
favourite expression, "I think not"

Look around you in this country. Houses going up on virgin soil and rain
which 'did' land on said soil and soak into the water tables, now down the
inaddequate drains and into rivers and after flooding the low lands, and the
house which have been built on them, out to sea. I wonder why we have a hose
pipe ban in force in April ???????????????????

Solution? Get rid of money.

Mike

"Mike" wrote in message
...

too slow, way to slow at present rates I believe to turn round the mess
we
have made. Sure, people are becoming aware and efforts are being made to
clean up some of the damage we have done but that doesn't counter
balance
the continuing degredation going on around us all. I am more aware than
many
and I am changing basic things but my lifestyle is masisvely
unsustainable.
The lack of significant change frustrates the hell out of me. My wife
brings
back fking plastic bags from the super market by the truck load and
doesn't
even think about it despite all the times I tell her not to. Its
ingrained
in collective psyches. It makes me want to throw a brick through
someones
window.

rob



rob I was recently on a World Cruise and called in at Port Kelang in
Malaysia to visit Kuala Lumpur and the road from Port Kelang to KA, the
journey takes about an hour, 'was' lined on both sides with Rubber
plantations. I say 'was' because for as far as the eye can see, these have
been grubbed out, the land built up and houses and houses, and flats and
flats and factories and factories are being built. The UK is no longer the
manufacturing nation of the world, hasn't been for a long time and what
was
left, Maggie Thatcher destroyed, the manufacturing is over on the other
side
of the world and that is why they are ripping the place up to build
houses,
factories and accommodation.

But think on a bit, all of these rubber plantations ripped out. Synthetic
unbiodegradeable plastic to replace it? Adding to your concerns? and Sacha
says we are now considering the environment more? To coin an ex net
nannies
favourite expression, "I think not"

Look around you in this country. Houses going up on virgin soil and rain
which 'did' land on said soil and soak into the water tables, now down the
inaddequate drains and into rivers and after flooding the low lands, and
the
house which have been built on them, out to sea. I wonder why we have a
hose
pipe ban in force in April ???????????????????

Solution? Get rid of money.

Mike

all of my roofs drain into soak holes, no storm water. Eventually when I
figure out a way they are going to collect water for the garden. Big
problem, retrofitting an existing house in an asthetically allowable way. I
don't have the luxury of starting from scratch. I will get there and
probably a hell of a lot quicker than most others but even then it may be
too late. I have a company car which costs me nix to run but requires me to
drive for the job. I won't change the job so the gas goes with the car. If
things were different I would be driving a 20 year old merc run on waste
vege oil. Most people who have the option don't think of it.

rob

I have a company car which costs me nix to run but requires me to
drive for the job. I won't change the job so the gas goes with the car. If
things were different I would be driving a 20 year old merc run on waste
vege oil. Most people who have the option don't think of it.

rob



as I said it's money. You are more than likely unable to change your job for
financial reasons/committments. You could tell the company that you don't
want their car and that they could pay you milage to run your old Merc, BUT,
they get a good deal from the Leasing Company to provide you with a car and
to pay you milage would be expensive for them, plus, with an old car, the
possibility of your unreliability and not earning your keep. Money issues
left right and centre there.

I organise reunions for ex service people and the company I use did have
their own coaches, nice big brand new all singing all dancing ones. They had
to be on the road to earn their keep. Not always possible, so the company
got rid of them and hire in. I was with the General Manager on Tuesday
finalising a reunion in Torquay next weekend. She just send an office email
to the coaching manager, '2 coaches Saturday Torquay to Exeter am return pm.
Sunday possible coach for sightseeing tour. Don't know how many, will notify
Friday night. Get them laid on' No capital expenditure for the company.
Money money money again

rob I am not argueing with you, I am 100% with you. I have a huge South
facing sloping roof and I live on the south part of the Isle of Wight. Water
in the garden hose laying around gets too hot for the hand. What could that
roof do for my water heating? Even in the winter, behind glass in my garden
room it is hot. BUT, money money money again, how long before I get my
investment back? ;-))))

Mike

"Mike" wrote in message
...
I have a company car which costs me nix to run but requires me to
drive for the job. I won't change the job so the gas goes with the car.
If
things were different I would be driving a 20 year old merc run on waste
vege oil. Most people who have the option don't think of it.

rob



as I said it's money. You are more than likely unable to change your job
for
financial reasons/committments. You could tell the company that you don't
want their car and that they could pay you milage to run your old Merc,
BUT,
they get a good deal from the Leasing Company to provide you with a car
and
to pay you milage would be expensive for them, plus, with an old car, the
possibility of your unreliability and not earning your keep. Money issues
left right and centre there.

I could chuck my job Mike but it is a job I love, provides so many benefits
and genuine job satisfaction. Part of that job satisfaction is independance.
I had to battle hard to get it. The job does pay well and that is helping us
pay down a mortgage at a stupid rapidity. I would work for $20 k less, such
is the quality of the job. Once the house is paid off we will renovate and I
can look at retro fitting low flow showers, maybe a composting toilet or at
least a low water flush, investigate some form of rain water harvesting and
grey water usage, higher spec insulation etc. Being a mature house in a
mature suburb it needs to fit with existing asthetics, the house needs to
retain its value (although I intend being acrried out of here in a box) and
the history of the suburb is something I really appreciate.

Money does get in the way of somethings. I think those who believe liberal
free market capitalism is the 'natural order' of things are naive, such as
Robert Fukuyamas book 'The End of History' (although he has since repented).
The pathways open to humanity are varied and broad. To me being a socialist
these days is very much being an environmentalist. Capitalism may survive,
it has a habit of doing that, however the free market will undergo a series
of jolts if environmental degredation continues (and I think it will). If we
survive I see a world based on localism and local democratisation. Heaven
knows at least here, in New Zealand, we are so removed from world economies
and our trading markets that we won't be able to be global. We may not end
up in the stone age however we may end up with a society 50-100 years back
in time in many senses. Stone agism is a worst case scenario, continuing on
our merry way with technology and science providing us miracle solutions (is
to me fking naive) optimistic. Some of the dull witted libertarians I know
think all will be sweetness and light in the future. If we survive in a
lower tech/lower horizon world that to me might indicate success.

Currently the availability of bio-fuels in New Zealand would account for
something like.25% of the current energy demands of our nation. Put another
way, it would take 400 years of bio-fuel growth to produce the same energy
demands as 2006.

rob

Currently the availability of bio-fuels in New Zealand would account for
something like.25% of the current energy demands of our nation. Put
another
way, it would take 400 years of bio-fuel growth to produce the same energy
demands as 2006.

rob


but rob you are using your natural resources as well which is detrimental to
your environment and you are not such a developed (in the
industrial/suburban sprawl way) nation.
http://www.mikecrowe.photosite.com/a...2ndLeg/?page=4
show the geysers at Rotorua which used to be a lot higher, but as the guide
said, 'they are now being used to heat our houses'. What happens when they
give up?

Mike

"Mike" wrote in message
...


Currently the availability of bio-fuels in New Zealand would account for
something like.25% of the current energy demands of our nation. Put
another
way, it would take 400 years of bio-fuel growth to produce the same
energy
demands as 2006.

rob


but rob you are using your natural resources as well which is detrimental
to
your environment and you are not such a developed (in the
industrial/suburban sprawl way) nation.
http://www.mikecrowe.photosite.com/a...2ndLeg/?page=4
show the geysers at Rotorua which used to be a lot higher, but as the
guide
said, 'they are now being used to heat our houses'. What happens when they
give up?

Mike

yeah, thanks Mike, thanks a bunch. It was an article in a magazine pointing
out how we are cumitatively rooting NZs environment that threw me into this
slough of despondency in the first place. Nice of you to throw me a
lifeline, with a lead weight attached. The following discourse is not uk
gardening as an advanced warning. More so how NZ is doing environmentally.

The geysers are actually doing better than they were 20 years ago. The
government capped many many back yard home heating systems as they were
drawing off too much thermal heat and dampening down the geysers. They are
certainly no where near the level going back 100 years but are showing good
signs of good health. In fact, in recent years hot pools and steam vents
have started popping up in parks and peoples gardens showing the thermal
activity is increasing.

If you are talking about using natural resources faster than replacement
(sustainability) you are indeed correct. One latest issue is water. In the
drier parts of the south island water is being drawn off faster than it is
replaced. ancient aquifers are running dry. The water is going in to
irrigation for pasture mainly. Show me the logic of that.

Other natural resources are being conserved, that is one area NZ is doing
quite well. Land and wetlands are being locked away in national parks,
native forests no longer logged, increasing marine reserves. We are also
starting to invest quite heavily in wind power generation (though still a
small % of total demand) although nimbys still exist. One example was the
wind turbines may 'scare the horses'. My view on that is short and to the
point.

Whether this balances up the depletion of natural resources I do not know. I
would suspect not however things are getting more in to balance. Eg, we dig
up a coal seem but place more land in to a national park or create a new
marine reserve. We hunt for more natural gas but also build a large wind
farm.

More of a concern however is air quality (worsening), water quality
(disgusting deterioration), increasing consumer wastes, plastics etc etc. We
are cleaning up past decades of DDT, copper, arsenic etc poisoining of land.
Good. We continue to pump nitrates into our water ways causing infestations
of water weeds.

We are a new country with a short history of european colonisation (200
years) however we have gone a long way down the line of environmental
degredation. Pity we didn't learn from europe with their centuries of
destruction. We seem to emulate it but do so a whole lot quicker. We are
still one of, it not the, cleanest country on earth however that is down to
our recent development and low population. People are wising up, I just wish
they would wise up a hell of a lot faster.

rob

g'day george,

count australia in there as well mate maybe even more so not sure?

i did send a reply to your original post 1 via the return format in this
program the other i sent to the e/mail addy ) in your
original signature line. not sure if you got them (both the same text)?

still would welcome chat with you about self changes, up to you i am on the
same wave length as you, just think that as important as this topic is these
av' garden forums/groups don't generate the sort of open discussion needed
to lead to what can be done.

you are welcome to contact me through our web site.

len

http://www.users.bigpond.com/gardenlen1/

"George.com" wrote in message
...

"Mike" wrote in message
...


Currently the availability of bio-fuels in New Zealand would account
for
something like.25% of the current energy demands of our nation. Put
another
way, it would take 400 years of bio-fuel growth to produce the same
energy
demands as 2006.

rob


but rob you are using your natural resources as well which is detrimental
to
your environment and you are not such a developed (in the
industrial/suburban sprawl way) nation.
http://www.mikecrowe.photosite.com/a...2ndLeg/?page=4
show the geysers at Rotorua which used to be a lot higher, but as the
guide
said, 'they are now being used to heat our houses'. What happens when
they
give up?

Mike

yeah, thanks Mike, thanks a bunch. It was an article in a magazine
pointing
out how we are cumitatively rooting NZs environment that threw me into
this
slough of despondency in the first place. Nice of you to throw me a
lifeline, with a lead weight attached. The following discourse is not uk
gardening as an advanced warning. More so how NZ is doing environmentally.

The geysers are actually doing better than they were 20 years ago. The
government capped many many back yard home heating systems as they were
drawing off too much thermal heat and dampening down the geysers. They are
certainly no where near the level going back 100 years but are showing
good
signs of good health. In fact, in recent years hot pools and steam vents
have started popping up in parks and peoples gardens showing the thermal
activity is increasing.

If you are talking about using natural resources faster than replacement
(sustainability) you are indeed correct. One latest issue is water. In the
drier parts of the south island water is being drawn off faster than it is
replaced. ancient aquifers are running dry. The water is going in to
irrigation for pasture mainly. Show me the logic of that.

Other natural resources are being conserved, that is one area NZ is doing
quite well. Land and wetlands are being locked away in national parks,
native forests no longer logged, increasing marine reserves. We are also
starting to invest quite heavily in wind power generation (though still a
small % of total demand) although nimbys still exist. One example was the
wind turbines may 'scare the horses'. My view on that is short and to the
point.

Whether this balances up the depletion of natural resources I do not know.
I
would suspect not however things are getting more in to balance. Eg, we
dig
up a coal seem but place more land in to a national park or create a new
marine reserve. We hunt for more natural gas but also build a large wind
farm.

More of a concern however is air quality (worsening), water quality
(disgusting deterioration), increasing consumer wastes, plastics etc etc.
We
are cleaning up past decades of DDT, copper, arsenic etc poisoining of
land.
Good. We continue to pump nitrates into our water ways causing
infestations
of water weeds.

We are a new country with a short history of european colonisation (200
years) however we have gone a long way down the line of environmental
degredation. Pity we didn't learn from europe with their centuries of
destruction. We seem to emulate it but do so a whole lot quicker. We are
still one of, it not the, cleanest country on earth however that is down
to
our recent development and low population. People are wising up, I just
wish
they would wise up a hell of a lot faster.

rob