The message
from David Rance contains these words:


And you're right - never, NEVER, boil the fruit for wine-making,
especially if it contains pectin. If you do the haze will never clear.

David (in Normandy!)

That confirms a conclusion I was just reaching. I started a few
different wines last summer and have had problems with them not
clearing. On comparing notes with a neighbour, I was wondering whether
it was because I'd added boiling water to the fruit. I shall try
everything cold this year.

My other concern is to try to make wine as organically as possible. I
presume Sodium metabisulphite is fairly harmless but wouldn't qualify as
organic. What would organic wine-makers use to sterilise their
equipment?

Janet G

The message .com
from "Mike Lyle" contains these words:


Larry Stoter wrote:
[...]
Mixed summer fruits works well, too - basically, anything that is
around, boil it all up and add sugar to get the OG right.

You do need a proper wine yeast.

I'd never boil, though: for my taste, it spoils the flavour. I've never
bothered with measuring OG, either: I just work on the principle that
every quarter-pound of sugar in a gallon, if fermented right out,
raises the alcohol by 1%. So for most fruits, three pounds or so, added
in two or three stages, plus some grape juice or concentrate, is about
right.

Will soaked raisins do as well as grape juice?

Janet G

On Mon, 7 Aug 2006, Janet Galpin wrote:

And you're right - never, NEVER, boil the fruit for wine-making,
especially if it contains pectin. If you do the haze will never clear.

David (in Normandy!)

That confirms a conclusion I was just reaching. I started a few
different wines last summer and have had problems with them not
clearing. On comparing notes with a neighbour, I was wondering whether
it was because I'd added boiling water to the fruit. I shall try
everything cold this year.

My other concern is to try to make wine as organically as possible. I
presume Sodium metabisulphite is fairly harmless but wouldn't qualify as
organic. What would organic wine-makers use to sterilise their
equipment?

I'm not sure that even organic winemakers can do away with sulphur for
sterilising (no matter what they may say!). I see no harm in adding one
Campden tablet to every gallon (in the case of fruit wines that's about
four pounds of fruit). Providing you are scrupulously clean then it
shouldn't be necessary to add any more. I never do.

The reason I am sceptical about organic grape wines is that it is
virtually impossible to grow grapes without resorting to spraying
against the mildews (powdery and downy). If I didn't spray regularly I
would lose the whole crop - and have done in the past when I didn't
spray!

David (in Normandy!)

--
David Rance http://www.mesnil.demon.co.uk
Fido Address: 2:252/110 writing from Le Mesnil Villement, Calvados, France

David (in Normandy!)

--
David Rance
http://www.mesnil.demon.co.uk
Fido Address: 2:252/110 writing from Le Mesnil Villement, Calvados,
France

Two David's in Normandy posting on URG - now that does sound confusing :-)
(Un)fortunately I can't say narrow it down and say "David in Calvados" since
it appears we both live there too.
Perhaps I could sign my posts David (near Vire, Normandy) since we are
fairly close to the town.
It is only a matter of time I suppose before there are other David's in Vire
in Calvados in Normandy posting too.
There seems to be more Brits around here than French :-)
Ou revoir!
David near Vire in Calvados in Normandy in France.

Dear David near Vire in Calvados in Normandy In France In Europe,
it's a pity you can't post a picture of any distinguishing marks. Or,
don a shower cap, like Rupert does (to distinguish him from other
posters called Don, and any passing goats).

Janet (not the one near Amersham, in Bucks, in England: the other
one.)

There is actually a recent picture of me on the blog. However, fortunately
or unfortunately depending upon your perspective, not much of me is visible
since I'm donned head to toe in protective gear, poised ready to spread the
quicklime I accidentally bought instead of slaked lime.

If the other David in Calvados in Normandy happens to read this - do you
know your potato varieties in French? I set half a dozen different varieties
from Point Vert and they all died down a month ago. Does this mean I
accidentally bought all early varieties or is it due to the very hot and dry
conditions we've been having? They didn't get any extra watering since we're
on a meter.
--
David
.... Email address on website http://www.avisoft.co.uk
.... Blog at http://dlts-french-adventures.blogspot.com/

David Rance wrote:
On Sun, 6 Aug 2006, Mike Lyle wrote:

I'd never boil, though: for my taste, it spoils the flavour. I've never
bothered with measuring OG, either: I just work on the principle that
every quarter-pound of sugar in a gallon, if fermented right out,
raises the alcohol by 1%. So for most fruits, three pounds or so, added
in two or three stages, plus some grape juice or concentrate, is about
right.

Quarter of a pound of sugar will produce 1.5% alcohol in every gallon
(source: Peter Duncan and Brian Acton - forgotten the name of the book
as I don't have it here in Normandy).

Yes, you're right: sorry. I find even my own notes say so. I haven't
done it for two years. Memory like, er, what do you call those things
with holes in?

And adding three pounds of sugar all in one go is likely to inhibit the
yeast and the fermentation will possibly have difficulty in starting.

Yes: hence my suggestion of adding it in two or three stages. Like
yours, my target is, or was, about 12%.
[...]

And you're right - never, NEVER, boil the fruit for wine-making,
especially if it contains pectin. If you do the haze will never clear.

Another poster has mentioned the question of sterilisation. Sulphur and
bleach, or fancy proprietary products (also chlorine-based, I suppose),
are the only methods I know about: copper sulphate's allowed under
organic rules in Bordeaux mixture, so I don't see why a sulphite
shouldn't be allowed for sterilising. In the old days, I think they
used to sterilise casks by fumigating them with burning sulphur.

To stabilise finished wine, Campden tablets (sodium metabisulphite) are
usual; but some people react to it, so ascorbic acid (vitamin C) can be
used instead -- though I've never tried it. I wouldn't be surprised to
learn that sulphite isn't organically acceptable as an additive in the
wine itself: producers probably rely on good hygiene to protect the
wine in bottle. But when your only customer is yourself, you can bend
the rules.

--
Mike.

Janet Galpin wrote:
The message .com
from "Mike Lyle" contains these words:


Larry Stoter wrote:
[...]
Mixed summer fruits works well, too - basically, anything that is
around, boil it all up and add sugar to get the OG right.

You do need a proper wine yeast.

I'd never boil, though: for my taste, it spoils the flavour. I've never
bothered with measuring OG, either: I just work on the principle that
every quarter-pound of sugar in a gallon, if fermented right out,
raises the alcohol by [[WRONG]] 1%. [[WRONG]] So for most fruits, [[WRONG]] three pounds or so [[WRONG]], added
in two or three stages, plus some grape juice or concentrate, is about
right.

Will soaked raisins do as well as grape juice?

Yes, but they have a characteristic flavour, which you may not want in
ordinary wines, though it can be nice in a stronger dessert one.
Sultanas may be a better everyday choice: more expensive ones are
usually better, I'm afraid. A p.i.t.b. is that dried fruit is often
lightly treated with preservative or liquid paraffin or both: a swish
round in boiling water should get rid well enough. Once soaked, they
need to be broken up: squdging with clean hands or a potato masher will
do it.

And _please_ note that my remark above about sugar is a bad bloomer. As
David points out, you get 1.5% for each quarter of a pound of white
sugar. For 12%, 2 lb sugar. Of course, you're doing well if you achieve
that (and the theoretical maximum is a little higher).

In a book, I've scribbled that sultanas and raisins contain between 50
and 75% sugar; so an average to work by is about 60%. Allow for that
when adding sugar; but I really don't think precision is necessary. In
the real world you won't get all the sugar out of the dried fruit
anyway.

--
Mike.

"Mike Lyle" wrote in message
oups.com...

David Rance wrote:
On Sun, 6 Aug 2006, Mike Lyle wrote:

I'd never boil, though: for my taste, it spoils the flavour. I've never
bothered with measuring OG, either: I just work on the principle that
every quarter-pound of sugar in a gallon, if fermented right out,
raises the alcohol by 1%. So for most fruits, three pounds or so, added
in two or three stages, plus some grape juice or concentrate, is about
right.

Quarter of a pound of sugar will produce 1.5% alcohol in every gallon
(source: Peter Duncan and Brian Acton - forgotten the name of the book
as I don't have it here in Normandy).

Yes, you're right: sorry. I find even my own notes say so. I haven't
done it for two years. Memory like, er, what do you call those things
with holes in?

Sorry I can't remember!(:-)

Aloan

On Mon, 7 Aug 2006, David (in Normandy) wrote:

David (in Normandy!)

--
David Rance
http://www.mesnil.demon.co.uk
Fido Address: 2:252/110 writing from Le Mesnil Villement, Calvados,
France

Two David's in Normandy posting on URG - now that does sound confusing :-)
(Un)fortunately I can't say narrow it down and say "David in Calvados" since
it appears we both live there too.
Perhaps I could sign my posts David (near Vire, Normandy) since we are
fairly close to the town.
It is only a matter of time I suppose before there are other David's in Vire
in Calvados in Normandy posting too.
There seems to be more Brits around here than French :-)
Ou revoir!
David near Vire in Calvados in Normandy in France.

I must confess I signed myself David (in Normandy!) just to tease you!
But maybe I could pull rank and say that I'm the real David in Normandy
because I was here first (sixteen years ago). On the other hand you
could pull rank by saying that you're here all the time! Never mind, it
produced some amusement!

Still the Normans round here would say that you're the foreigner as you
live the other side of Condé-sur-Noireau. Have you noticed how
parochial they are? My next door neighbour was outraged once because
some people from St. Omer came and picked over the déchets in our
commune. "Who do they think they are?" he demanded.

But he was a great gardener. He looked after our vegetable garden while
we were away. When we were there we had the vegetables, when we were
back in England he had them. He kept rabbits in our hutches and sheep in
our meadow and he shared the meat with us. Unfortunately he died last
October. To be more precise, he committed suicide because he was 81
years old and was losing his strength rapidly to the point where he
couldn't do our gardens any more. He couldn't face life as a permanent
invalid unable to do any gardening and so he topped himself. He went up
to his cider shed and hanged himself.

David (only sometimes in Normandy!)
--
David Rance http://www.mesnil.demon.co.uk
Fido Address: 2:252/110 writing from Le Mesnil Villement, Calvados, France

On Mon, 7 Aug 2006, David (in Normandy) wrote:

If the other David in Calvados in Normandy happens to read this - do you
know your potato varieties in French? I set half a dozen different varieties
from Point Vert and they all died down a month ago. Does this mean I
accidentally bought all early varieties or is it due to the very hot and dry
conditions we've been having? They didn't get any extra watering since we're
on a meter.

Unfortunately I cannot help. I planted three varieties myself this year,
one early and two late and they both matured at the same time. The same
thing happened on my allotment in Reading. I think it's just a funny
year.

We're on a meter here too, but fortunately we have a well and a horse
trough. Also we have a communal well down by the River Orne so we're
well off for water for irrigation. Interestingly, in times of drought we
are not allowed to use water from the well from 8 a.m. to 8 p.m. I
suppose it's so that it doesn't get wasted during the day by
evaporation.

David

--
David Rance http://www.mesnil.demon.co.uk
Fido Address: 2:252/110 writing from Le Mesnil Villement, Calvados, France

On Mon, 7 Aug 2006, Mike Lyle wrote:

Another poster has mentioned the question of sterilisation. Sulphur and
bleach, or fancy proprietary products (also chlorine-based, I suppose),
are the only methods I know about: copper sulphate's allowed under
organic rules in Bordeaux mixture, so I don't see why a sulphite
shouldn't be allowed for sterilising. In the old days, I think they
used to sterilise casks by fumigating them with burning sulphur.

They still do. In fact in most of the vineyards that I've visited they
ferment in stainless steel vessels and then rack the wine off into oak
casks to mature. Oak is still an important flavour in fine wines. You
often see "matured in oak" on the labels.

To stabilise finished wine, Campden tablets (sodium metabisulphite) are
usual; but some people react to it, so ascorbic acid (vitamin C) can be
used instead -- though I've never tried it. I wouldn't be surprised to
learn that sulphite isn't organically acceptable as an additive in the
wine itself: producers probably rely on good hygiene to protect the
wine in bottle.

There has been a problem with some producers, whose hygiene leaves a
little to be desired, using too much sulphur to stabilise the wine. You
can often see wine tasters on television complaining about the amount of
sulphur in the wines.

David

--
David Rance http://www.mesnil.demon.co.uk
Fido Address: 2:252/110 writing from Le Mesnil Villement, Calvados, France

In article ,
David Rance writes:
|
| There has been a problem with some producers, whose hygiene leaves a
| little to be desired, using too much sulphur to stabilise the wine. You
| can often see wine tasters on television complaining about the amount of
| sulphur in the wines.

It's nothing to do with hygiene, and a great deal to do with chance
and alcoholic strength. The things that they are trying to kill are
as normal and widespread as the yeasts.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On Mon, 7 Aug 2006, Nick Maclaren wrote:

| There has been a problem with some producers, whose hygiene leaves a
| little to be desired, using too much sulphur to stabilise the wine. You
| can often see wine tasters on television complaining about the amount of
| sulphur in the wines.

It's nothing to do with hygiene, and a great deal to do with chance
and alcoholic strength. The things that they are trying to kill are
as normal and widespread as the yeasts.

Well, yes you're right in that some French producers (on the advice I am
reliably informed of an English wine producer, whose word I don't trust
for a minute) are now using massive doses of sulphur to kill off natural
yeasts and introducing cultivated yeasts. Now this is a practice well
known to English winemakers, especially where the wine yeasts are not
endemic but not, I would have thought, worth doing on the continent. But
even in my own humble little vineyard I have managed to get a wine yeast
to stay around to the extent that I haven't used a yeast starter for
some years and rely entirely on one Campden tablet per gallon to kill
off any apiculata yeasts and then let the natural wine yeast do its
work. And it *does* work.

David

--
David Rance http://www.mesnil.demon.co.uk
Fido Address: 2:252/110 writing from Le Mesnil Villement, Calvados, France

On 7/8/06 21:27, in article ,
"David Rance" wrote:
snip

There has been a problem with some producers, whose hygiene leaves a
little to be desired, using too much sulphur to stabilise the wine. You
can often see wine tasters on television complaining about the amount of
sulphur in the wines.

I seem to remember being told in USA that the cheaper the wine in the first
place, the more sulphur used and that it could give some people really
dreadful headaches. I can certainly bear witness to the latter!

--
Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(email address on website)

Janet Galpin wrote:

I presume Sodium metabisulphite is fairly harmless but wouldn't qualify as organic. What would organic wine-makers use to sterilise their equipment?

Janet G

Fairly harmless??

Not according to the chemical industry.

SAFETY DATA SHEET
SODIUM METABISULPHITE Page 1
Issued: 25/09/2002
Revision No: 1
1. IDENTIFICATION OF THE SUBSTANCE / PREPARATION AND OF THE COMPANY /
UNDERTAKING
Product name: SODIUM METABISULPHITE

Use / description of product: Harmful.

3. HAZARDS IDENTIFICATION
Main hazards: Harmful if swallowed. Risk of serious damage to eyes.
4. FIRST AID MEASURES (SYMPTOMS)
Skin contact: There may be mild irritation at the site of contact.
Eye contact: There may be irritation and redness.
Ingestion: There may be soreness and redness of the mouth and throat.
There may be difficulty
swallowing. Nausea and stomach pain may occur. There may be vomiting.
Inhalation: Absorption through the lungs can occur causing symptoms
similar to those of ingestion.
4. FIRST AID MEASURES (ACTION)
Skin contact: Wash immediately with plenty of soap and water.
Eye contact: Bathe the eye with running water for 15 minutes.
Ingestion: Wash out mouth with water. Do not induce vomiting. If
conscious, give half a litre of water to
drink immediately. Transfer to hospital as soon as possible.
Inhalation: Remove casualty from exposure ensuring one's own safety
whilst doing so. Consult a doctor.