On 17/1/07 21:40, in article , "Rupert (W.Yorkshire)"
wrote:


"K" wrote in message
...
La Puce writes

K wrote:
Though as La Puce says, this is the wild flower 'effect' not the real
thing as most of these are not UK natives.

I'm curious, which of the flowers I have mentioned, vervain, scabious,
pimpernella, thistles, (beside marguerites) are not native to the
British Isles?

Of the 5 you mentioned in your original post, only one is unequivocally
native:

Verbena bonariensis and marguerites are not native.

"Pimpernella saxifraga" - I assume you mean Pimpinella saxifraga - is
native.

Scabiosa and thistles may or may not be native depending on species - you
didn't specify which.

You didn't mention vervain(1) in your previous post

Not everyone reading this thread is familiar with the wild flora, and
they might be a bit narked, if they want wild as in UK native, to find
that some of the plants they have planted aren't actually UK natives. If
they're just after the wild look, then, eg, V bonariensis fits the bill.

(1) Vervain is Verbena officinalis
--
Kay

I too was wondering what on the list was native. I have never seen fields of
V.bonariensis but it would be a spectacular sight :-)


Especially when grown with that other well known native, Cephalaria
gigantica. ;-)

--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
http://www.discoverdartmoor.co.uk/
(remove weeds from address)

"Rupert (W.Yorkshire)" wrote
"K" wrote
Not everyone reading this thread is familiar with the wild flora,
and they might be a bit narked, if they want wild as in UK native, to
find that some of the plants they have planted aren't actually UK
natives. If they're just after the wild look, then, eg, V bonariensis
fits the bill.

(1) Vervain is Verbena officinalis

I too was wondering what on the list was native. I have never seen
fields of V.bonariensis but it would be a spectacular sight :-)

If I didn't weed out all the seedlings it produces in the gravely,
sandy stuff that passes itself off as soil in my front garden I *would*
have a field of it! With the recent mild winters V.b. surprised me by
turning into a bit of a nuisance there, but I still forgive it once it
flowers and attracts passing butterflies.

Re natives for wild areas, blue Meadow Cranesbill (Geranium pratense)
and tall, yellow Dark Mullein (Verbascum nigrum) make a colourful
addition in sunnier areas, together with Toadflax (Linaria vulgaris)
which is good for it's later flowering.

In a shadier place I'd also try Helleborus foetidus as I like the
greenish flowers and distinctive foliage, and native foxgloves
practically go without saying. Snowdrops I believe are thought not to be
genuine original Brits but they do look the part and are so widely
naturalised that I've put those in for the Spring under the shade of our
birch trees.

--
Sue

K wrote:
I'm curious, which of the flowers I have mentioned, vervain, scabious,
pimpernella, thistles, (beside marguerites) are not native to the
British Isles?

Of the 5 you mentioned in your original post, only one is
unequivocally native:
Verbena bonariensis and marguerites are not native.
"Pimpernella saxifraga" - I assume you mean Pimpinella saxifraga - is
native.
Scabiosa and thistles may or may not be native depending on species -
you didn't specify which.
You didn't mention vervain(1) in your previous post
Not everyone reading this thread is familiar with the wild flora, and
they might be a bit narked, if they want wild as in UK native, to find
that some of the plants they have planted aren't actually UK natives. If
they're just after the wild look, then, eg, V bonariensis fits the bill.
(1) Vervain is Verbena officinalis

Thanks Kay. Yes you're right, I've never thought of the species in the
Vervain and Pimpinella was what I meant. The 'wild look' you mention
was very much what I had in mind and I'm never that bothered about UK
native, only if there's a grant at the end for a project and I'll make
sure all is native!! However, even English Nature propose to plant
V.bonariiensis and many others non native. I suppose, like me, they
know that the wild life I get in my garden never distinguish between
vervain bonariensis or officinalis. Same with the thisles, marguerites
and scabiosas ;o)

On 18/1/07 12:10, in article
ws.net, "Sue"
wrote:


"Rupert (W.Yorkshire)" wrote
"K" wrote
snip

I too was wondering what on the list was native. I have never seen
fields of V.bonariensis but it would be a spectacular sight :-)

If I didn't weed out all the seedlings it produces in the gravely,
sandy stuff that passes itself off as soil in my front garden I *would*
have a field of it! With the recent mild winters V.b. surprised me by
turning into a bit of a nuisance there, but I still forgive it once it
flowers and attracts passing butterflies.

I love the way it seeds itself all over the place but do agree that
sometimes it needs a helping hand in attempts at self-control!

Re natives for wild areas, blue Meadow Cranesbill (Geranium pratense)
and tall, yellow Dark Mullein (Verbascum nigrum) make a colourful
addition in sunnier areas, together with Toadflax (Linaria vulgaris)
which is good for it's later flowering.

Some of my favourites and so I must admit to a bias when I say I think those
would look wonderful together. The OP could also go to the library and get
out the book on Highgrove because IIRC, it describes Miriam Rothschild's
planting of the wild flower meadow there.

In a shadier place I'd also try Helleborus foetidus as I like the
greenish flowers and distinctive foliage, and native foxgloves
practically go without saying. Snowdrops I believe are thought not to be
genuine original Brits but they do look the part and are so widely
naturalised that I've put those in for the Spring under the shade of our
birch trees.

And the real British bluebells would be a good idea, to offset the Spanish
takeover bid!

--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
http://www.discoverdartmoor.co.uk/
(remove weeds from address)

This one site gives its native wild flower 100% Native British mixture as
containing:
"Species include:- Achillea millefolium, Agrostemma githago, Betula erecta,
Chrysanthemum leucanthemum, Chrysanthemum segatum, Cynoglossum officinale,
Digitalis purpurea, Dipascus fullonum, Legousia hybrida, Lobularia maritime,
Lunaria annua, Lupinus albus, Malva moschata, Malva sylvestris, Papaver
rhoeas, Polygonum latifolium, Reseda lutea, Salvia pratensis, Tanacetum
vulgare, Tamus communis."
http://www.nickys-nursery.co.uk/seed...le/mixture.htm


What a good site, thank-you, rather tempted by the garden games too :-)

kate

"Sacha" wrote
"Sue" wrote:
Re natives for wild areas, blue Meadow Cranesbill (Geranium pratense)
and tall, yellow Dark Mullein (Verbascum nigrum) make a colourful
addition in sunnier areas, together with Toadflax (Linaria vulgaris)
which is good for it's later flowering.

Some of my favourites and so I must admit to a bias when I say I think
those would look wonderful together. The OP could also go to the
library and get out the book on Highgrove because IIRC, it describes
Miriam Rothschild's planting of the wild flower meadow there.

I read about her once saying she'd like to get native wild roses growing
the length and breadth of the country alongside all the motorways and
main roads. Wouldn't that be a splendid sight?
It's good to see Councils and contractors are now making more effort to
get wild flowers added to the embankments when new roads are made.

In a shadier place I'd also try Helleborus foetidus as I like the
greenish flowers and distinctive foliage, and native foxgloves
practically go without saying. Snowdrops I believe are thought not to
be genuine original Brits but they do look the part and are so widely
naturalised that I've put those in for the Spring under the shade of
our birch trees.

And the real British bluebells would be a good idea, to offset the
Spanish takeover bid!

One of the abiding memories of a holiday at the end of May in Cornwall a
couple of years ago, is of verges along little country lanes being awash
with real English bluebells, all mixed in with Red Campion. Gorgeous! It
was like going through one long winding garden. :-) I hadn't really
realised until then how much of a deeper blue and more graceful the
genuine things are. All Spanish invaders in my border are now in the
process of being repelled!

--
Sue

On 18/1/07 19:41, in article
ws.net, "Sue"
wrote:


"Sacha" wrote
"Sue" wrote:
Re natives for wild areas, blue Meadow Cranesbill (Geranium pratense)
and tall, yellow Dark Mullein (Verbascum nigrum) make a colourful
addition in sunnier areas, together with Toadflax (Linaria vulgaris)
which is good for it's later flowering.

Some of my favourites and so I must admit to a bias when I say I think
those would look wonderful together. The OP could also go to the
library and get out the book on Highgrove because IIRC, it describes
Miriam Rothschild's planting of the wild flower meadow there.

I read about her once saying she'd like to get native wild roses growing
the length and breadth of the country alongside all the motorways and
main roads. Wouldn't that be a splendid sight?
It's good to see Councils and contractors are now making more effort to
get wild flowers added to the embankments when new roads are made.

We see great sheets of primroses alongside the A38 in our immediate area as
we drive towards Exeter. I remember that when I moved over here in 1997 I
was just overcome by them. To this day I look out for the first which are
usually on a different and more local lane and they just lift my heart.
We see huge numbers of ox eye daisies and very rarely (sadly) wild orchids.
I can think of many things to grumble at our councils about but care of
banks and hedgerows isn't one of them - so far! And in fact, I must make a
mental note to write to our local town hall and say so! If I send brickbats,
I should also send bouquets.

In a shadier place I'd also try Helleborus foetidus as I like the
greenish flowers and distinctive foliage, and native foxgloves
practically go without saying. Snowdrops I believe are thought not to
be genuine original Brits but they do look the part and are so widely
naturalised that I've put those in for the Spring under the shade of
our birch trees.

And the real British bluebells would be a good idea, to offset the
Spanish takeover bid!

One of the abiding memories of a holiday at the end of May in Cornwall a
couple of years ago, is of verges along little country lanes being awash
with real English bluebells, all mixed in with Red Campion. Gorgeous! It
was like going through one long winding garden. :-) I hadn't really
realised until then how much of a deeper blue and more graceful the
genuine things are. All Spanish invaders in my border are now in the
process of being repelled!

Our lanes here - well, I do hope you see them one day in late spring. Ray
always says that if you could cut a chunk out of them and take it to Chelsea
Flower Show you'd get a Gold, hands down. They're glorious, a miracle of
nature.

--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
http://www.discoverdartmoor.co.uk/
(remove weeds from address)

La Puce wrote:

snips ...
Thanks Kay. Yes you're right, I've never thought of the species in the
Vervain and Pimpinella was what I meant. The 'wild look' you mention
was very much what I had in mind and I'm never that bothered about UK
native, only if there's a grant at the end for a project and I'll make
sure all is native!! However, even English Nature propose to plant
V.bonariiensis and many others non native. I suppose, like me, they
know that the wild life I get in my garden never distinguish between
vervain bonariensis or officinalis. Same with the thisles, marguerites
and scabiosas ;o)

There are good arguments in addition to financial advantage in favour of
using native plant species and trying to make sure they are true
natives:

1. The local wildlife does distinguish native from non-native. This will
be somewhat dependent on how far away from being true native the plant
species is but especially in the case of insects, the native insects do
know the difference - true native plants species will attract more
insects, both in terms of variety of species and overall numbers. And
where insects go, birds will follow. Planting true native plant species
provides greater food resources for local birds.

2. Genetic diversity - using non-native species risks diluting the local
genetic diversity. This may result in local wild plants losing
resistance to diseases and pest. There is also the argument that you
never know what you have really lost until it's too late.

And as the same large commercial suppliers are probably providing the
same seed species to many different markets, perhaps several countries,
because it costs less, the problem could be more widespread than it
appears.

3. Pests and diseases - non-native plant species may bring in pests and
diseases, or escape into the wild and become pests themselves.

I don't think that just because a government agency is doing something,
it means they are right. More likely, a major consideration of theirs is
also financial .....
--
Larry Stoter

Larry Stoter wrote:
There are good arguments in addition to financial advantage in favour of
using native plant species and trying to make sure they are true
natives:

1. The local wildlife does distinguish native from non-native.

80% of people's garden in the UK are planted with imported plants from
China, Japan, Canaries Isles, Madeira, regions of the Med. etc. When
did the insects started to distinguish natives from non natives?
Shouldn't we have no more insects left if they distinguished in the
16th century the mass imported plant species into this country?

2. Genetic diversity - using non-native species risks diluting the
local
genetic diversity.

Taking into consideration the above - monoculture is the culprit into
the dessimination of our insects, and wild life in general.
Biodiversity is the way forward, in agriculture as well as in private
gardens and public spaces. And what does 'romano british' refers to
when we look at a 'uk-native' plant such as verbena officinalis?

As far as the loss of plants, I blame greedy nurseries and garden
centre using vast quantities of chemicals and peat for decades to sell
healthy looking plants rapidly.

3. Pests and diseases - non-native plant species may bring in pests and
diseases, or escape into the wild and become pests themselves.

What pests and diseases the Rhodos. have brought in this country?

I don't think that just because a government agency is doing something,
it means they are right. More likely, a major consideration of theirs is
also financial .....

Financial insentives are in everything everywhere. I do not understand
why a company such as English Nature, giving grants (I got 2K pounds 6
years ago for a project) would preach the necessity of using uk native
plants (and issue a lil' metal plaque to put on the wall at proximity
of the project funded) and still propose to use say Vervain. The whole
argument is ridiculous. As I said previously, my butterflies don't
distinguish if the marguerites they enjoy come from Perigueux, Chamonix
or Pau. If I didn't grow these flowers, I do beleive that some insects
would not be there and therefore many birds wouldn't come to my garden.
Biodiversity is therefore the solution, and not keeping to 'uk native'
or 'non native' argument as it means nothing anymore.

La Puce writes

Larry Stoter wrote:
There are good arguments in addition to financial advantage in favour of
using native plant species and trying to make sure they are true
natives:

1. The local wildlife does distinguish native from non-native.

80% of people's garden in the UK are planted with imported plants from
China, Japan, Canaries Isles, Madeira, regions of the Med. etc.

They have those plants in their gardens, but they have natives as well
(usually known as 'weeds')

When
did the insects started to distinguish natives from non natives?

Look at the statistics for numbers of species supported by native oaks
compared with non-native trees. Compare the speed with which rowans and
elder berries are taken with, for example, skimmia, pernettya. Look at
the species, eg himalayan balsam, which grow unchecked to pest
proportions here when they are not troublesome in their own habitat.

Shouldn't we have no more insects left if they distinguished in the
16th century the mass imported plant species into this country?

You may be too young to be able to compare the number of butterflies
around now with what was around in the 1950s. But as I said, gardens
aren't 100% non-native, and gardens do not make up the total of UK land.


3. Pests and diseases - non-native plant species may bring in pests and
diseases, or escape into the wild and become pests themselves.

What pests and diseases the Rhodos. have brought in this country?

Plenty of examples, including dutch elm disease and the current thing
that is spreading on rhodos and other trees/bushes - forget its name.

--
Kay

On 21/1/07 21:55, in article , "K"
wrote:

snip

Plenty of examples, including dutch elm disease and the current thing
that is spreading on rhodos and other trees/bushes - forget its name.

Phytophthora, aka SOD, sudden oak death. You'd think professionals would
know about it.
--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
http://www.discoverdartmoor.co.uk/
(remove weeds from address)

Sue wrote:
"Kate Morgan" wrote
[Mike L]:
One needs to be aware of some of the dangers, too. I'm very fond of
orange hawkweed, for example, and included it in my patch; but it
soon
spread to the "civilised" areas of the garden, and caused deep
mourning.

LOL, I did this once with Teasels, I was not very popular

Ditto with Restharrow in my wild area. It's pretty and the bees love it,
but by george it does spread once it gets going!

Stinks too. I won't have it but it is pretty.

http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?im...icial%26sa%3DN
looks good on drystone walls. I would love to see some amid aubretia.

K wrote:
They have those plants in their gardens, but they have natives as well
(usually known as 'weeds')

)

When
did the insects started to distinguish natives from non natives?

Look at the statistics for numbers of species supported by native oaks
compared with non-native trees.

That's due to pollution and the loss of habitats not the planting of a
Verbena officinalis Kay!!

Compare the speed with which rowans and
elder berries are taken with, for example, skimmia, pernettya. Look at
the species, eg himalayan balsam, which grow unchecked to pest
proportions here when they are not troublesome in their own habitat.

Sure. I understand and know what you mean. But my question was
regarding the insects distinguishing between vervain b. compared with
vervain o. Most of our wild flowers are from Europe and not 'British'
as one would like to beleive.

You may be too young to be able to compare the number of butterflies
around now with what was around in the 1950s. But as I said, gardens
aren't 100% non-native, and gardens do not make up the total of UK land.

Sure. I, as a child, remember far more butterflies and I understand
that the loss of butterflies is due to chemicals used in
gardens/agriculture, loss of edgerows and habitats and not the import
of rhodos or skimias in the 16th Century! The forestry commission in
20002 found SOD mainly on viburnums and rhodos in around 6% of
nurseries and garden centres surveyed by Defra. The spread of the
disease is due, I beleive, to garden centres bad health.

Plenty of examples, including dutch elm disease and the current thing
that is spreading on rhodos and other trees/bushes - forget its name.

Phytophthora (p.ramorum) was found on diseased rhodos. But oak decline
also involves recurrent episodes of drought, other root infecting
fungi, repeated insect defoliation and scale insect attack. P.Ramorum
wasn't found in such a large proportion that people are lead to
beleive. See the forestry commission website.

http://www.forestry.gov.uk/pramorum

Sacha wrote:
Phytophthora, aka SOD, sudden oak death. You'd think professionals would
know about it.

Yes, ask Ray why don' t you.

La Puce writes


When
did the insects started to distinguish natives from non natives?

Look at the statistics for numbers of species supported by native oaks
compared with non-native trees.

That's due to pollution and the loss of habitats

For plant eating creatures the food plant *is* the habitat.

It is not lack of pollution which makes oak or ivy able to support a
large variety of creatures in the UK, it's the fact they have been
around a long time. A native of an area which shares a similar fauna
will obviously support a good variety, a native of an area with a
completely different fauna will not provide support for the different
fauna of the UK.


not the planting of a
Verbena officinalis Kay!!


I'm getting confused by your talking of planting of different verbenas -
previously it was V bonariensis you were talking about, not V
officinalis


--
Kay