K wrote:
It is not lack of pollution which makes oak or ivy able to support a
large variety of creatures in the UK, it's the fact they have been
around a long time. A native of an area which shares a similar fauna
will obviously support a good variety, a native of an area with a
completely different fauna will not provide support for the different
fauna of the UK.

Hmmm. Sure. But wouldn't you say that planting a lawn only with a
couple of rose bushes will not provide sufficient habitat for the fauna
of the UK? And ....

I'm getting confused by your talking of planting of different verbenas -
previously it was V bonariensis you were talking about, not V
officinalis

.... in this case, planting any kind of verbena variety would increase
the wild life habitat, regardless of the verbena's species?! Because
I'm also very confused. When I offered a suggestion of a 'wild effect'
of planting for Kate I was told by yourself and Sacha that
v.bonariensis wasn't uk native, but v.officinallis was. I've checked it
and English Nature encourage the planting of v.bonariensis presicely
because it encourages wild habitat and life in the garden. I finally
said the insects in my garden couldn't care less of the species of
verbena, nor would care if my marguerite came from abroad! There lies
my confusion - this 'uk native' label is very flawed I think. Or I'm a
noodle, again ;o)

La Puce writes

K wrote:
It is not lack of pollution which makes oak or ivy able to support a
large variety of creatures in the UK, it's the fact they have been
around a long time. A native of an area which shares a similar fauna
will obviously support a good variety, a native of an area with a
completely different fauna will not provide support for the different
fauna of the UK.

Hmmm. Sure. But wouldn't you say that planting a lawn only with a
couple of rose bushes will not provide sufficient habitat for the fauna
of the UK? And ....

Was anyone suggesting it would?

I'm getting confused by your talking of planting of different verbenas -
previously it was V bonariensis you were talking about, not V
officinalis

... in this case, planting any kind of verbena variety would increase
the wild life habitat, regardless of the verbena's species?! Because
I'm also very confused. When I offered a suggestion of a 'wild effect'
of planting for Kate I was told by yourself and Sacha that
v.bonariensis wasn't uk native, but v.officinallis was. I've checked it
and English Nature encourage the planting of v.bonariensis presicely
because it encourages wild habitat and life in the garden.

I don't know what EN are recommending or why. Stace describes V
officinalis as native and I have seen it growing in the wild. I have not
seen V bonariensis in the wild. Stace describes it as introduced-casual,
on tips and waste ground.

I finally
said the insects in my garden couldn't care less of the species of
verbena, nor would care if my marguerite came from abroad! There lies
my confusion - this 'uk native' label is very flawed I think. Or I'm a
noodle, again ;o)

It's flawed in that most of our flora and fauna probably came from
elsewhere, if you go far back enough in time (the alternative is that
the species differentiated enough to become a true species actually
within what is now the UK), but for practical purposes there is a
distinction between species which have been growing wild for long enough
for their origins to be uncertain and species which are known to have
been introduced.

As I said elsewhere, if the species in question is one that originated
in a similar habitat, with similar flora and fauna to ours, then it will
support our species. But if it is from somewhere entirely different,
then, while it may support some of our generalist species, it is
unlikely to support our specialists.

There are a large number of people who think that our native flora are
worth preserving, and that one should not plant introduced species in
the wild. The ill effects of planting introduced species in the wild
range from pure competition ousting native plants from the area
(Rhododendron ponticum, Himalayan balsam, parrot feather for example) to
cross breeding with natives (eg spanish bluebell) with effects that we
do not fully understand.

--
Kay

On 23 Jan, 22:11, K wrote:

Was anyone suggesting it would?

No, but somehow we should encourage all flowers to grow, a variety of
plants to support a wider range of insects and not stick to 'native'
only. The example I give breaks my heart when I see it.

I don't know what EN are recommending or why. Stace describes V
officinalis as native and I have seen it growing in the wild. I have not
seen V bonariensis in the wild. Stace describes it as introduced-casual,
on tips and waste ground.

Introduced-casual is something I haven't heard off. It's interesting.

It's flawed in that most of our flora and fauna probably came from
elsewhere, if you go far back enough in time (the alternative is that
the species differentiated enough to become a true species actually
within what is now the UK), but for practical purposes there is a
distinction between species which have been growing wild for long enough
for their origins to be uncertain and species which are known to have
been introduced.

Sounds like the grey squirel V the red one ) I understand the dangers
of loosing a plant and even more an animal specie. Though I wouldn't
worry planting V. bonariensis and marguerite in a garden.

As I said elsewhere, if the species in question is one that originated
in a similar habitat, with similar flora and fauna to ours, then it will
support our species. But if it is from somewhere entirely different,
then, while it may support some of our generalist species, it is
unlikely to support our specialists.

I understand and agree.

There are a large number of people who think that our native flora are
worth preserving, and that one should not plant introduced species in
the wild. The ill effects of planting introduced species in the wild
range from pure competition ousting native plants from the area
(Rhododendron ponticum, Himalayan balsam, parrot feather for example) to
cross breeding with natives (eg spanish bluebell) with effects that we
do not fully understand.

I understand. Thank you for taking the time with this. It's very much
what I thought - I feel however our main problems are pollutions and
chemicals, monoculture and the weird weather we're experiencing. I do
think Spanish Bluebells are pretty, but I am a firm beleiver that the
more flowers I plant in my garden, the more prolific my garden becomes
in insects and birds, and I am not really found of R. ponticum,
himalyan balsam nor parrot feather ))) So the UK wilderness is quite
safe whilst I'm around.

La Puce writes

. Though I wouldn't
worry planting V. bonariensis and marguerite in a garden.

Nor would I. But I wouldn't plant them in the wild, and if I wanted a
patch of UK natives in my garden I would not include them. If otoh all I
was after was a wild look, then I wouldn't worry. And that was the
distinction I made many posts ago.

. I do
think Spanish Bluebells are pretty, but I am a firm beleiver that the
more flowers I plant in my garden, the more prolific my garden becomes
in insects and birds,

That is the logic I do not follow. If the plant from different habitat
that you are considering planting will support only a small number of UK
generalist species, which already have abundant food supply in your
garden, in what way does planting it help make your garden more prolific
in insects and birds?

By all means plant it in your garden because you like it, and it adds to
your variety of plants. But if you are planting specifically to extend
your range of insects and other fauna, it makes more sense to plant
either a UK native or something closely related from N Europe.

--
Kay

On 24 Jan, 17:12, K wrote:
That is the logic I do not follow. If the plant from different habitat
that you are considering planting will support only a small number of UK
generalist species, which already have abundant food supply in your
garden, in what way does planting it help make your garden more prolific
in insects and birds?

I'm so surprised you don't understand me. Hence me giving an example of
the lonely lawn and the rose bush ''garden'. This will never provide
enough habitats and will never attract enough insects. Don't you agree?
Therefore the more we plant the better. And in my other choice of
plants, vervain being European to a certain degree ...!


By all means plant it in your garden because you like it, and it adds to
your variety of plants. But if you are planting specifically to extend
your range of insects and other fauna, it makes more sense to plant
either a UK native or something closely related from N Europe.

I think we've gone full circle.

La Puce writes


On 24 Jan, 17:12, K wrote:
That is the logic I do not follow. If the plant from different habitat
that you are considering planting will support only a small number of UK
generalist species, which already have abundant food supply in your
garden, in what way does planting it help make your garden more prolific
in insects and birds?

I'm so surprised you don't understand me. Hence me giving an example of
the lonely lawn and the rose bush ''garden'. This will never provide
enough habitats and will never attract enough insects. Don't you agree?
Therefore the more we plant the better. And in my other choice of
plants, vervain being European to a certain degree ...!

You haven't actually answered my question. You made a general statement
to the effect that planting more species, irrespective of their origin,
would increase the insect diversity, and when I asked you to explain the
logic, you retract to a single example of vervain (officinale?
bonariensis?)
--
Kay