"pearl" wrote in message
...
"Jim Webster" wrote in message
...

"pearl" wrote in message
...
"Jim Webster" wrote in message
...

"pearl" wrote in message
...
"Jim Webster" wrote in
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...

"pearl" wrote in message
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"Jim Webster" wrote in
message
how can I know where you food comes from,

I don't know, but your statement above indicated that you do.

You lied, again.

How can I know where your food comes from

You should have thought of that before you blurted out "most of your
food ingredients are actually imported from water deficient
countries
...".

good, so where do your food ingredients come from then?

For argument's sake, and because it involves everyone, let's
say that my "food ingredients" come from all over the world.
Now tell us what should be avoided (support with evidence).

simple
Don't eat imported food.

That rules out livestock products then, as you use imported feed.

yes, but I admit it


.. and the UK is rapidly becoming a water-deficient country too..

not for agriculture. May have to ration domestic use in the SE




Stick with UK seasonal vegetables

I'd like to see evidence of vegetables causing water depletion.

Simple.
What is the water content of most vegetables?


After all you are a vegetarian

So what. We all eat (-need- to eat, for survival and good health)
vegetables, fruits, nuts, legumes and so on. Try living without.

then why do you buy imported vegetables?


Why won't you comment on the inefficient overuse of water
for the livestock industry, jim? You are too embarassed to?

no, we use all that water that falls on grass or would otherwise go to waste


don't need to, you rant on about it all the time

You do need to, as you are trying to shift the blame onto others.

but it has taken over a week to admit that you are every bit as guilty

I have not. There's no way I could be. It is inefficient unsustainable
consumption for and by the livestock industry that is causing global
water shortages, - requiring 15 to 22 times the water for the same
amount, and at about 40 percent of global agricultural output, that's
nearly twice as much as would be used for plant foods alone - and
~you~ try to blame foods being produced for human beings directly.

Shame on you, webster. Maybe one day you'll find a backbone.

I'm not the one who took over a week to admit what she eats and still cannot
conceed that by importing vegetables she is importing water
Also if water is such a big deal, I'd point out that the amount used in
agriculture in the UK is less than is used by the domestic population


Jim Webster

"Remus" wrote in message ...

"pearl" wrote in message ...
It is inefficient unsustainable
consumption for and by the livestock industry that is causing global
water shortages, - requiring 15 to 22 times the water for the same
amount, and at about 40 percent of global agricultural output

Saving a few gallons in UK is not going to make those gallons magically appear in the Sahara.

'According to various sources, the Sahara Desert (or rather, desert-like
condition) is expanding southward at a fluctuating, rough average of
2-6 miles per year, with livestock production the principal cause.

"There were those who even claimed that the huge Sahara Desert was
a man-made product caused by shepherds burning the jungle, and by
the subsequent overgrazing of ever larger herds of goats and sheep.
Modern research has proved this to be so.
--Thor Heyerdahl, Fatu-Hiva

"Recent research has demonstrated that the Sahara was covered with
trees as recently as 6, 000 B.C., and that it was turned into a desert
by nomadic tribes that burned the trees to provide grazing areas for
their herds.
--Jacques Cousteau, The Ocean World

Only 6000 years ago the Sahara Desert was largely covered with trees,
brush, and grass, and has since become arid. Much evidence also
indicates that, as is the case in many of the world's drylands, livestock
grazing was a significant contributor to this aridification. Contemporary
livestock herding over more than 2/3 of the USA-sized, sandy, barren
wasteland we now call the Sahara Desert continues to deplete what
scant soil, vegetation, and water sources remain. Stock raising is
carried on wherever possible with little regard for sustained yield or
environmental consequences. However, livestock ownership here is
less a matter of survival than tradition, honor, and glory.
.....'
http://www.wasteofthewest.com/Chapter6.html

If this country ever gets near a water shortage it will be because we ALL waste water on washing cars, sprinkling the lawn,
flushing the toilet too many times and in a thousand other ways - to blame it on meat producers is rather fuzzy logic - their
contribution to water usage (both globally and in UK) pales into insignificance when compared to the wasteful usage by Joe Public.


Maybe. But I haven't blamed that on UK "meat producers".

"Jim Webster" wrote in message ...

"pearl" wrote in message
...
"Jim Webster" wrote in message
...

"pearl" wrote in message
...
"Jim Webster" wrote in message
...

"pearl" wrote in message
...
"Jim Webster" wrote in
message
...

"pearl" wrote in message
...
"Jim Webster" wrote in
message
how can I know where you food comes from,

I don't know, but your statement above indicated that you do.

You lied, again.

How can I know where your food comes from

You should have thought of that before you blurted out "most of your
food ingredients are actually imported from water deficient
countries
...".

good, so where do your food ingredients come from then?

For argument's sake, and because it involves everyone, let's
say that my "food ingredients" come from all over the world.
Now tell us what should be avoided (support with evidence).

simple
Don't eat imported food.

That rules out livestock products then, as you use imported feed.

yes, but I admit it

Wow.

.. and the UK is rapidly becoming a water-deficient country too..

not for agriculture. May have to ration domestic use in the SE

Crops aren't being irrigated there yet?

Stick with UK seasonal vegetables

I'd like to see evidence of vegetables causing water depletion.

Simple.
What is the water content of most vegetables?

If it's that simple you should be able to provide evidence
that vegetable production is causing water shortages. In
fact it is the extensive deforestation to create pasture and
feedcrops that has caused aridization; now compounded
by the need to irrigate to keep up your omnivorous habit.

'(i) Micro-climate: Deforestation of TRF leads to drastic
changes in microclimate (Lal and Cummings, 1979), as
outlined in Fig. 6. In general, deforestation eliminates the
buffering effect of vegetation cover and accentuates the
extremes. Fluctuations in micro-climatic parameters are
greatly enhanced (e.g., relative humidity, maximum and
minimum temperatures for soil and air). Deforestation
decreases rainfall effectiveness and increases aridization
of the climate. Forest removal increases the magnitude
and intensity of net radiation reaching the soil surface.
Ghuman and Lal (1987) observed that in south central
Nigeria, on average, 10.5 and ll.5 MJ/m2/day of insolation
were received on a cleared site compared to 0.4 and 0.3
MJ/m2/day in the forest during the dry seasons of 1984
and 1985, respectively. There was no appreciable
difference in solar radiation received under forest during
the rainy (May) and dry (December) seasons (Table 8).
Vegetation removal also increases wind velocity (Table 8).

Deforestation decreases the maximum relative humidity,
especially during mid-day. There is also a corresponding
increase in air temperature and evaporation rate. Perhaps
the most drastic effect of deforestation is on soil
temperature. The maximum soil temperature at I to 5 cm
depth can be 5° to 20°C higher on cleared land on a sunny
day compared with land under TRF cover. Because of
high soil evaporation, the soil moisture content of the
surface layer is also lower in cleared than in forested soil
(Fig. 7).
.....'
http://www.unu.edu/unupress/unupbook...e/uu27se05.htm

After all you are a vegetarian

So what. We all eat (-need- to eat, for survival and good health)
vegetables, fruits, nuts, legumes and so on. Try living without.

then why do you buy imported vegetables?

People buy imported vegetables because a wide variety
of fresh produce is important to maintain good health.

Why won't you comment on the inefficient overuse of water
for the livestock industry, jim? You are too embarassed to?

no, we use all that water that falls on grass or would otherwise go to waste

You're forgetting about all that imported feed.

don't need to, you rant on about it all the time

You do need to, as you are trying to shift the blame onto others.

but it has taken over a week to admit that you are every bit as guilty

I have not. There's no way I could be. It is inefficient unsustainable
consumption for and by the livestock industry that is causing global
water shortages, - requiring 15 to 22 times the water for the same
amount, and at about 40 percent of global agricultural output, that's
nearly twice as much as would be used for plant foods alone - and
~you~ try to blame foods being produced for human beings directly.

Shame on you, webster. Maybe one day you'll find a backbone.

I'm not the one who took over a week to admit what she eats

Stop lying already, webster. I told you way back what I eat.

and still cannot
conceed that by importing vegetables she is importing water

You still can't provide evidence of vegetables causing drought.

Also if water is such a big deal, I'd point out that the amount used in
agriculture in the UK is less than is used by the domestic population

What percentage? A link with that would be helpful.

How many liters of water do bovines consume per day?

"pearl" wrote in message
...
"Jim Webster" wrote in message
...
yes, but I admit it

Wow.

.. and the UK is rapidly becoming a water-deficient country too..

not for agriculture. May have to ration domestic use in the SE

Crops aren't being irrigated there yet?

some vegetables and potatoes

not such things as grazing land


Stick with UK seasonal vegetables

I'd like to see evidence of vegetables causing water depletion.

Simple.
What is the water content of most vegetables?

If it's that simple you should be able to provide evidence
that vegetable production is causing water shortages.

you just did, vegetables and potatoes are the only crops in the UK needing
irrigation

And for imported crops it is simple, work out the water content of
vegetables, multiply it by tons exported, that is the amount of water that
country exports.
If that country is already water deficient, you are merely making things
worse by exporting vegetables


In
fact it is the extensive deforestation to create pasture and
feedcrops that has caused aridization; now compounded
by the need to irrigate to keep up your omnivorous habit.

'(i) Micro-climate: Deforestation of TRF leads to drastic
changes in microclimate (Lal and Cummings, 1979), as
outlined in Fig. 6. In general, deforestation eliminates the
buffering effect of vegetation cover and accentuates the
extremes. Fluctuations in micro-climatic parameters are
greatly enhanced (e.g., relative humidity, maximum and
minimum temperatures for soil and air). Deforestation
decreases rainfall effectiveness and increases aridization
of the climate. Forest removal increases the magnitude
and intensity of net radiation reaching the soil surface.
Ghuman and Lal (1987) observed that in south central
Nigeria, on average,

so irrelevent to UK and snipped


Why won't you comment on the inefficient overuse of water
for the livestock industry, jim? You are too embarassed to?

no, we use all that water that falls on grass or would otherwise go to
waste

You're forgetting about all that imported feed.

maize gluten, buiscuit meal, rememeber,
if we are looking at your diet, then it is only relevent to compare mine




don't need to, you rant on about it all the time

You do need to, as you are trying to shift the blame onto others.

but it has taken over a week to admit that you are every bit as guilty

I have not. There's no way I could be. It is inefficient
unsustainable
consumption for and by the livestock industry that is causing global
water shortages, - requiring 15 to 22 times the water for the same
amount, and at about 40 percent of global agricultural output, that's
nearly twice as much as would be used for plant foods alone - and
~you~ try to blame foods being produced for human beings directly.

Shame on you, webster. Maybe one day you'll find a backbone.

I'm not the one who took over a week to admit what she eats

Stop lying already, webster. I told you way back what I eat.

and still cannot
conceed that by importing vegetables she is importing water

You still can't provide evidence of vegetables causing drought.

Also if water is such a big deal, I'd point out that the amount used in
agriculture in the UK is less than is used by the domestic population

What percentage? A link with that would be helpful.

how much water a day to you use, start from there


How many liters of water do bovines consume per day?

remember they **** it straight back out again or convert it to milk which we
use. They drink water that is not up to human consumption standards
very little goes into meat

Jim Webster

"Jim Webster" wrote in message ...

"pearl" wrote in message
...
"Jim Webster" wrote in message
...
yes, but I admit it

Wow.

.. and the UK is rapidly becoming a water-deficient country too..

not for agriculture. May have to ration domestic use in the SE

Crops aren't being irrigated there yet?

some vegetables and potatoes

not such things as grazing land

I remember the summer of '95 in Essex. Grass all burned up.

Any idea why England is experiencing this extended drought?

Stick with UK seasonal vegetables

I'd like to see evidence of vegetables causing water depletion.

Simple.
What is the water content of most vegetables?

If it's that simple you should be able to provide evidence
that vegetable production is causing water shortages.

you just did, vegetables and potatoes are the only crops in the UK needing
irrigation

Those crops have always been grown there, so they're not to blame.

And for imported crops it is simple, work out the water content of
vegetables, multiply it by tons exported, that is the amount of water that
country exports.
If that country is already water deficient, you are merely making things
worse by exporting vegetables

Why are water shortages occuring? Address and eliminate the cause.

'Livestock now use 30 percent of the earth's entire land surface,
mostly permanent pasture but also including 33 percent of the
global arable land used to producing feed for livestock, the report
notes. As forests are cleared to create new pastures, it is a major
driver of deforestation, especially in Latin America where, for
example, some 70 percent of former forests in the Amazon have
been turned over to grazing.

Land and water

At the same time herds cause wide-scale land degradation, with about
20 percent of pastures considered as degraded through overgrazing,
compaction and erosion. This figure is even higher in the drylands
where inappropriate policies and inadequate livestock management
contribute to advancing desertification.

The livestock business is among the most damaging sectors to the
earth's increasingly scarce water resources, contributing among other
things to water pollution, euthropication and the degeneration of coral
reefs. The major polluting agents are animal wastes, antibiotics and
hormones, chemicals from tanneries, fertilizers and the pesticides used
to spray feed crops. Widespread overgrazing disturbs water cycles,
reducing replenishment of above and below ground water resources.
Significant amounts of water are withdrawn for the production of feed.

Livestock are estimated to be the main inland source of phosphorous
and nitrogen contamination of the South China Sea, contributing to
biodiversity loss in marine ecosystems.

Meat and dairy animals now account for about 20 percent of all
terrestrial animal biomass. Livestock's presence in vast tracts of land
and its demand for feed crops also contribute to biodiversity loss; 15
out of 24 important ecosystem services are assessed as in decline,
with livestock identified as a culprit.
.....'
http://www.fao.org/newsroom/en/news/...448/index.html

In
fact it is the extensive deforestation to create pasture and
feedcrops that has caused aridization; now compounded
by the need to irrigate to keep up your omnivorous habit.

'(i) Micro-climate: Deforestation of TRF leads to drastic
changes in microclimate (Lal and Cummings, 1979), as
outlined in Fig. 6. In general, deforestation eliminates the
buffering effect of vegetation cover and accentuates the
extremes. Fluctuations in micro-climatic parameters are
greatly enhanced (e.g., relative humidity, maximum and
minimum temperatures for soil and air). Deforestation
decreases rainfall effectiveness and increases aridization
of the climate. Forest removal increases the magnitude
and intensity of net radiation reaching the soil surface.
Ghuman and Lal (1987) observed that in south central
Nigeria, on average, 10.5 and ll.5 MJ/m2/day of insolation
were received on a cleared site compared to 0.4 and 0.3
MJ/m2/day in the forest during the dry seasons of 1984
and 1985, respectively. There was no appreciable
difference in solar radiation received under forest during
the rainy (May) and dry (December) seasons (Table 8).
Vegetation removal also increases wind velocity (Table 8).

Deforestation decreases the maximum relative humidity,
especially during mid-day. There is also a corresponding
increase in air temperature and evaporation rate. Perhaps
the most drastic effect of deforestation is on soil
temperature. The maximum soil temperature at I to 5 cm
depth can be 5° to 20°C higher on cleared land on a sunny
day compared with land under TRF cover. Because of
high soil evaporation, the soil moisture content of the
surface layer is also lower in cleared than in forested soil
(Fig. 7).
.....'
http://www.unu.edu/unupress/unupbook...e/uu27se05.htm

so irrelevent to UK and snipped

Relevant and restored.

'There are several major concerns about deforestation of TRF.
These concerns are related to local, regional, and global effects
(Fig. 6). Local effects are the most drastic and are related to
changes in soil properties, vegetation, and micro-climate.
Regional effects are related to hydrological characteristics and
changes in meso-climate. Global effects are due to changes in
global cycles of C and N and water vapor and may be related
to global warming or the greenhouse effect.' - ibid.

You know where most of that imported soya meal is from.

'.. the soya boom, feeding a seemingly insatiable world
market for soya beans as cattle feed, is now the main driver
of rainforest destruction.

Figures show that last year the rate of forest clearance in the
Amazon was the second highest on record as the soy boom
completed its third year. An area of more than 10,000 square
miles - nearly the size of Belgium - was cut down, ..
....
The survival of the Amazon forest, which sprawls over 4.1
million sq km (1.6 million sq miles) and covers more than
half of Brazil's land area, may be the key to the survival of
the planet. The jungle is sometimes called the world's "lung"
because its trees produce much of the world's oxygen. It is
thought nearly 20 per cent of it has already been destroyed
by legal and illegal logging, and clearance for cattle ranching.
But the soya boom has dramatically stepped up the pace of
destruction.

It began on the back of the BSE crisis in Britain, when the
feed given to cattle suddenly became a matter of intense
public concern. Cattle feed producers around the world
switched to soya as an untainted source.

The boom was intensified by the fact that Brazil - in contrast
to the US and Argentina - did not go down the GM route in its
agriculture, so when most European countries went GM-free,
it was from Brazil that they sought their soya bean supplies.
Europe now imports 65 per cent of its soya from Brazil. A
further impetus to the boom is coming from China, whose
emerging middle class wants to eat more and more meat - so
the demand for animal feed is soaring.

The soya boom is bitterly criticised by environmentalists.
"It is turning the rainforest into cattle feed. It is gross," said
John Sauven, head of the rainforest campaign for Greenpeace
UK.

It first showed up in the deforestation figures in 2003, when
after falling or staying steady for eight years, the rate of
destruction leapt by 40 per cent in a single year, from
18,170 sq km to 25,500 sq km.

Since then the rate has stayed at its new high level, with
24,597 sq km cut down the next year, and, as the figures
released yesterday by the Brazilian environment ministry
showed, from satellite photos and other data, no less than
26,130 sq km of rainforest was cut down in the 12 months
to August 2004. This was a further leap of 6 per cent on
the year before and caused immense dismay, not least
because President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva's government
adopted an action plan last year to protect the Amazon.
....'
http://www.rainforests.net/therapeoftherainforest.htm

Why won't you comment on the inefficient overuse of water
for the livestock industry, jim? You are too embarassed to?

no, we use all that water that falls on grass or would otherwise go to
waste

You're forgetting about all that imported feed.

maize gluten, buiscuit meal, rememeber,
if we are looking at your diet, then it is only relevent to compare mine

Soya meal, remember. See above.

don't need to, you rant on about it all the time

You do need to, as you are trying to shift the blame onto others.

but it has taken over a week to admit that you are every bit as guilty

I have not. There's no way I could be. It is inefficient unsustainable
consumption for and by the livestock industry that is causing global
water shortages, - requiring 15 to 22 times the water for the same
amount, and at about 40 percent of global agricultural output, that's
nearly twice as much as would be used for plant foods alone - and
~you~ try to blame foods being produced for human beings directly.

Shame on you, webster. Maybe one day you'll find a backbone.

I'm not the one who took over a week to admit what she eats

Stop lying already, webster. I told you way back what I eat.

and still cannot
conceed that by importing vegetables she is importing water

You still can't provide evidence of vegetables causing drought.

Also if water is such a big deal, I'd point out that the amount used in
agriculture in the UK is less than is used by the domestic population

What percentage? A link with that would be helpful.

how much water a day to you use, start from there

Very little.

How many liters of water do bovines consume per day?

remember they **** it straight back out again

What a waste of fresh water.

or convert it to milk which we use.

Rate of conversion?

They drink water that is not up to human consumption standards

Why not?

very little goes into meat

You haven't answered the question.

"pearl" wrote in message
...
"Jim Webster" wrote in message
...

"pearl" wrote in message
...
"Jim Webster" wrote in message
...
yes, but I admit it

Wow.

.. and the UK is rapidly becoming a water-deficient country too..

not for agriculture. May have to ration domestic use in the SE

Crops aren't being irrigated there yet?

some vegetables and potatoes

not such things as grazing land

I remember the summer of '95 in Essex. Grass all burned up.

yes, and did you see any irrigation of grassland because I travelled pretty
well right round the country that year and never


Any idea why England is experiencing this extended drought?

what extended drought, there is some shortage in some regions but talk about
extended drought in the west and you'd be laughed at


Stick with UK seasonal vegetables

I'd like to see evidence of vegetables causing water depletion.

Simple.
What is the water content of most vegetables?

If it's that simple you should be able to provide evidence
that vegetable production is causing water shortages.

you just did, vegetables and potatoes are the only crops in the UK
needing
irrigation

Those crops have always been grown there, so they're not to blame.

duh, they need irrigation because more of them are being grown in larger
areas, therefore they are part of the problem


And for imported crops it is simple, work out the water content of
vegetables, multiply it by tons exported, that is the amount of water
that
country exports.
If that country is already water deficient, you are merely making things
worse by exporting vegetables

Why are water shortages occuring? Address and eliminate the cause.

'Livestock now use 30 percent of the earth's entire land surface,
mostly permanent pasture

yep, and large areas in the UK, because that is where we produce our
livestock here, is permanent pasture because it is unsuitable for arable
cultivation

Jim Webster

"Jim Webster" wrote in message ...

"pearl" wrote in message
...
"Jim Webster" wrote in message
...

"pearl" wrote in message
...
"Jim Webster" wrote in message
...
yes, but I admit it

Wow.

.. and the UK is rapidly becoming a water-deficient country too..

not for agriculture. May have to ration domestic use in the SE

Crops aren't being irrigated there yet?

some vegetables and potatoes

not such things as grazing land

I remember the summer of '95 in Essex. Grass all burned up.

yes, and did you see any irrigation of grassland because I travelled pretty
well right round the country that year and never

No.

Any idea why England is experiencing this extended drought?

what extended drought, there is some shortage in some regions but talk about
extended drought in the west and you'd be laughed at

'This is what has happened in south-east England. Two dry years
have reduced the amount of water available to both people and the
environment. You can see from the diagrams on the right that since
October 2004, south-east England has only had a few months of
average or above average.

Why is winter rainfall important?

Winter rainfall is vital for water resources because it fills reservoirs
and groundwater and increases river flows. As temperatures rise
in the spring and plants and trees start to grow, less rain reaches
rivers and groundwater.

The past two winters have been dry in most of England and Wales
which is unusual. South-east England relies on groundwater for
most of its water supply, so two dry winters meant groundwater
levels had not recovered at the end of the 2005-06 winter and this
led to the current water restrictions.

A wet May and August plus reduced demand helped the situation.
However, another dry winter could cause problems next summer
for those in the region.
...'
http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk...sion=1&lang=_e

'Outlook

A wet autumn and a wet start to the winter have meant most
reservoirs have recovered and groundwater levels are improving.
In south-east England we are in a better position than this time
last year and the signs are encouraging, but the drought is not
over. If the weather changes and the rest of the winter is dry,
there could be further water resources problems next spring and
summer.
...'
http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk...14767/1131486/

The question is, is it part of a trend like, conversely, flooding.

"Our study carried somewhat surprising results, showing that
although the major impact of deforestation on precipitation is
found in and near the deforested regions, it also has a strong
influence on rainfall in the mid and even high latitudes," said
Roni Avissar, lead author of the study, published in the April
2005 issue of the Journal of Hydrometeorology.
....'
http://www.nasa.gov/centers/goddard/..._rainfall.html

Stick with UK seasonal vegetables

I'd like to see evidence of vegetables causing water depletion.

Simple.
What is the water content of most vegetables?

If it's that simple you should be able to provide evidence
that vegetable production is causing water shortages.

you just did, vegetables and potatoes are the only crops in the UK
needing
irrigation

Those crops have always been grown there, so they're not to blame.

duh, they need irrigation because more of them are being grown in larger
areas, therefore they are part of the problem

False. The problem has been a lack of rain. A drought, in other words.

And for imported crops it is simple, work out the water content of
vegetables, multiply it by tons exported, that is the amount of water
that
country exports.
If that country is already water deficient, you are merely making things
worse by exporting vegetables

Why are water shortages occuring? Address and eliminate the cause.

'Livestock now use 30 percent of the earth's entire land surface,
mostly permanent pasture

yep, and large areas in the UK, because that is where we produce our
livestock here, is permanent pasture because it is unsuitable for arable
cultivation

Arable land is, but a significant percentage is being used for feedcrops.

And what's wrong with the UK soil, that it's 'unsuitable' as you claim?
Remember that Britain used to be almost entirely woodland. Will you
also say that "permanent pasture" is unable to support fruit orchards?

"pearl" wrote in message
...
"Jim Webster" wrote in message
not such things as grazing land

I remember the summer of '95 in Essex. Grass all burned up.

yes, and did you see any irrigation of grassland because I travelled
pretty
well right round the country that year and never

No.

Any idea why England is experiencing this extended drought?

what extended drought, there is some shortage in some regions but talk
about
extended drought in the west and you'd be laughed at

'This is what has happened in south-east England. Two dry years
have reduced the amount of water available to both people and the
environment. You can see from the diagrams on the right that since
October 2004, south-east England has only had a few months of
average or above average.

then they will have to cut domestic water consumption


yep, and large areas in the UK, because that is where we produce our
livestock here, is permanent pasture because it is unsuitable for arable
cultivation

Arable land is, but a significant percentage is being used for feedcrops.

in the UK a lot of arable land is incapable of growing bread making wheat
and can only grow feed wheat, but as global warming increases we'll probably
be able to grow bread making wheat


And what's wrong with the UK soil, that it's 'unsuitable' as you claim?
Remember that Britain used to be almost entirely woodland. Will you
also say that "permanent pasture" is unable to support fruit orchards?

indeed and the grazing of livestock and feeding of pigs in orchards has a
long history. A lot of work has been done in New Zealand on interspersing
timber and grazing never mind orchards and grazing

Jim Webster

"Jim Webster" wrote in message ...

"pearl" wrote in message
...
"Jim Webster" wrote in message

not such things as grazing land

I remember the summer of '95 in Essex. Grass all burned up.

yes, and did you see any irrigation of grassland because I travelled
pretty well right round the country that year and never

No.

Any idea why England is experiencing this extended drought?

what extended drought, there is some shortage in some regions but talk
about extended drought in the west and you'd be laughed at

'This is what has happened in south-east England. Two dry years
have reduced the amount of water available to both people and the
environment. You can see from the diagrams on the right that since
October 2004, south-east England has only had a few months of
average or above average.

then they will have to cut domestic water consumption

Don't forget vegetables.. but it's all worth it.. even the heart disease, etc.
And what about remaining native flora and fauna.. Who cares, eh, jim.

yep, and large areas in the UK, because that is where we produce our
livestock here, is permanent pasture because it is unsuitable for arable
cultivation

Arable land is, but a significant percentage is being used for feedcrops.

in the UK a lot of arable land is incapable of growing bread making wheat
and can only grow feed wheat, but as global warming increases we'll probably
be able to grow bread making wheat

'WHETHER you're an avid baker or know next to nothing about
making bread, visiting the Watermill in Little Salkeld, Cumbria,
will make you want to get stuck in.
...
In the early days there were four farmers within ten miles of Little
Salkeld who supplied the wheat, ..
...'
http://www.nw-enquirer.co.uk/weekend...607211107.html

'Arable crops grown in the UK

The UK is the fourth largest producer of cereal and oilseed crops
in the EU (after France, Germany and Poland) accounting for about
8% of total EU production. [....]

Within UK agriculture, arable crops account for about 16% of
total output. Cereals (and/or oilseeds) are grown on around 70,000
holdings across the country, the majority in the eastern part of
England, some in Scotland and a few in Wales and Northern Ireland.
This accounts for about 70% of all cropping on agricultural land,
though in terms of overall use, grass, rough grazing and forestry
between them take around 75% of the total available area. [..]

Wheat and barley are the most important cereal crops grown in the
United Kingdom. Production of oats and rye has declined drastically
whilst a new cross of rye and wheat, called triticale, has been
introduced. All these cereals are well suited to the UK's temperate
climate. [..]

Wheat

Wheat is the most widely grown arable crop in the UK covering
around 2 million hectares and producing about 15.5 million tonnes
each year. Wheat is a versatile crop and is found in thousands of
food products e.g. bread, cakes, biscuits and breakfast cereals.

Barley

Barley is grown on around 1.1 million hectares and produces an
output of around 6 million tonnes. About 2 million tonnes are used
in the production of malt, a key ingredient in beer and whisky. The
balance is largely used in animal feeds.

Oil seed rape

The bright yellow flowers of oil seed rape cover 0.5 million hectares
each year producing around 1.5 million tonnes of seed. The seed is
crushed to extract oil used in the food and animal feed industries,
with the residue being used as a high protein animal feed ingredient.

Oats

Oats represent around 3% of the total UK cereals area and are mostly
sown in the autumn months. About half of the oat crop is milled and
used for human consumption (e.g. breakfast cereals, cheese biscuits
and haggis), the balance being used for animal feed.
...
http://www.defra.gov.uk/farm/crops/index.htm

And what's wrong with the UK soil, that it's 'unsuitable' as you claim?
Remember that Britain used to be almost entirely woodland. Will you
also say that "permanent pasture" is unable to support fruit orchards?

indeed and the grazing of livestock and feeding of pigs in orchards has a
long history. A lot of work has been done in New Zealand on interspersing
timber and grazing never mind orchards and grazing

Tsk... if only they'd thought of that much sooner....

'New Zealand, world-renowned for its sheep. With about
100,000 square miles, 80 million sheep, and 8 million cattle,
New Zealand has the world's highest livestock density -
equivalent to about 1200 sheep per square mile. Much of the
island nation is steep, rugged, densely forested, or otherwise
unproductive for livestock, so density in areas actually grazed
approaches 2000 sheep per square mile!

Were New Zealand not well-watered and lushly vegetated, it
could not support even a fraction of these animals. However,
environmental damage here can only be described as extreme.
About half of the country now resembles an immense golf
course covered chiefly with exotic vegetation. Forests that once
blanketed most of the islands have been reduced to 5% of their
original coverage. In large portions of the North Island "slips" --
or huge sections of topsoil -- are sliding off the overgrazed hills.
In the worst areas, former subtropical and temperate forest is
now virtual desert. Most of New Zealand's unique animal life is
gone, and some species are extinct or in danger of extinction,
due largely to livestock grazing and ranching practices.
...'
http://www.wasteofthewest.com/Chapter6.html

'The planet's mantle of trees has already declined by a third
relative to preagricultural times, and much of that remaining
is damaged or deteriorating. Historically, the demand for
grazing land is a major cause of worldwide clearing of forest
of most types. Currently, livestock production, fuel wood
gathering, lumbering, and clearing for crops are denuding a
conservatively estimated 40 million acres of the Earth's
forestland each year.
...
From woodland to grassland to desert, throughout most of
the inhabited globe, livestock production is a primary cause
of environmental deterioration and sustained degradation
that is, prevention of recovery. Many ancient civilizations in
southern Europe, North Africa, Arabia, the Indus Valley, India,
central Asia and elsewhere -declined under its impact, and the
vast majority of countries have serious livestock problems now.
....'
http://www.wasteofthewest.com/Chapter6.html

Another illustration of the effects of livestock grazing:

'The Forest Service defines range as "land that provides or is
capable of providing forage for grazing or browsing animals
[read: 'livestock']." By this definition more than 80% of the
West qualifies as range, including a complex array of more than
40 major ecosystem types, all of which have been significantly
degraded by ranching. ..
...
Numerous historical accounts do confirm drastic, detrimental
changes in plant and animal life, soil, water, and fire conditions
throughout most of the West. These reports progressively
establish livestock grazing as the biggest single perpetrator of
these changes, particularly considering that it was the only
significant land use over most of the West.

One of the most useful and informative descriptions of the early
West was that of Meriweather Lewis and William Clark on their
famous expedition across the northern Midwest, Rockies, and
Pacific Northwest from 1804 to 1806 (Thwaites 1959). Their
descriptions of the unconquered West are of a world we can
scarcely imagine: landscapes filled with wildlife; great diversities
of lush vegetation; highly productive, free-flowing rivers, creeks,
and springs; abundant, dark, fertile soil; unaltered, unimpeded fire
and other natural processes. Of the Montana plains, one excerpt
from Clark reads, "we observe in every direction Buffalow, Elk
Antelopes & Mule Deer inumerable and so jintle that we could
approach them near with great ease." Another states, We saw a
great number of buffaloe, Elk, common and Black tailed deer,
goats [pronghorn] beaver and wolves. ..

In the West today only ungrazed Yellowstone National Park
supports nearly this variety and density of large wild animals. ..

Lewis and Clark's and other historic journals attest that buffalo,
elk, deer, bighorns, pronghorn, mountain goats, moose, horses,
grizzly and black bears, wolves, foxes, cougars, bobcats,
beaver, muskrats, river otters, fish, porcupines, wild turkeys
and other "game" birds, waterfowl, snakes, prairie dogs and
other rodents, most insects, and the vast majority of wild
animals were all many times more abundant then than now. So
too were native plants; the journals describe a great abundance
and diversity of grasses and herbaceous vegetation, willows
and deciduous trees, cattails, rushes, sedges, wild grapes,
chokecherries, currants, wild cherries and plums, gooseberries,
"red" and "yellow" berries, service berries, flax, dock, wild
garlic and onions, sunflowers, wild roses, tansy, honeysuckle,
mints, and more, a large number being edible. Most of these
plants have been depleted through the many effects of livestock
grazing for 100 years and are today comparatively scarce.
...'
http://www.wasteofthewest.com/Chapter3.html

"pearl" wrote in message
...
"Jim Webster" wrote in message

then they will have to cut domestic water consumption

Don't forget vegetables.. but it's all worth it.. even the heart disease,
etc.
And what about remaining native flora and fauna.. Who cares, eh, jim.

exactly so they are going to have to cut domestic water consumption, because
there is enough water falling for agriculture, whatever sort of agriculture
you want.


yep, and large areas in the UK, because that is where we produce our
livestock here, is permanent pasture because it is unsuitable for
arable
cultivation

Arable land is, but a significant percentage is being used for
feedcrops.

in the UK a lot of arable land is incapable of growing bread making wheat
and can only grow feed wheat, but as global warming increases we'll
probably
be able to grow bread making wheat

'WHETHER you're an avid baker or know next to nothing about
making bread, visiting the Watermill in Little Salkeld, Cumbria,
will make you want to get stuck in.
..

yep, as I said, we grow very little breadmaking wheat in the UK.

That is why we import bread making wheat, because we don't have the sunshine
that we need to guarantee production

I'm glad you've noticed OSR, you'll see a lot more of it when the EU turns
over 50% of our arable acreage for biodiesel
But you still haven't said where your food comes from I note

Jim Webster

On Wed, 31 Jan 2007 12:08:22 -0000, "Jim Webster"
wrote:


"pearl" wrote in message
...
"Jim Webster" wrote in message

then they will have to cut domestic water consumption

Don't forget vegetables.. but it's all worth it.. even the heart disease,
etc.
And what about remaining native flora and fauna.. Who cares, eh, jim.

exactly so they are going to have to cut domestic water consumption, because
there is enough water falling for agriculture, whatever sort of agriculture
you want.


yep, and large areas in the UK, because that is where we produce our
livestock here, is permanent pasture because it is unsuitable for
arable
cultivation

Arable land is, but a significant percentage is being used for
feedcrops.

in the UK a lot of arable land is incapable of growing bread making wheat
and can only grow feed wheat, but as global warming increases we'll
probably
be able to grow bread making wheat

'WHETHER you're an avid baker or know next to nothing about
making bread, visiting the Watermill in Little Salkeld, Cumbria,
will make you want to get stuck in.
..

yep, as I said, we grow very little breadmaking wheat in the UK.

Another lie.

That is why we import bread making wheat, because we don't have the sunshine
that we need to guarantee production.

There are no guarantees, that's life. The UK can grow pretty much
anything, if you choose to.

"Jim Webster" wrote in message ...

"pearl" wrote in message
...
"Jim Webster" wrote in message

then they will have to cut domestic water consumption

Don't forget vegetables.. but it's all worth it.. even the heart disease, etc.
And what about remaining native flora and fauna.. Who cares, eh, jim.

exactly

Really? What an insane attitude. Luckily, jim's kind are in the minority.
Most people are misinformed + addicted to fat (in this case animal fat).

so they are going to have to cut domestic water consumption, because
there is enough water falling for agriculture, whatever sort of agriculture
you want.

Yes, you just said that. The question is, *why* is this happening?

yep, and large areas in the UK, because that is where we produce our
livestock here, is permanent pasture because it is unsuitable for
arable
cultivation

Arable land is, but a significant percentage is being used for
feedcrops.

in the UK a lot of arable land is incapable of growing bread making wheat
and can only grow feed wheat, but as global warming increases we'll
probably
be able to grow bread making wheat

'WHETHER you're an avid baker or know next to nothing about
making bread, visiting the Watermill in Little Salkeld, Cumbria,
will make you want to get stuck in.
..

yep, as I said, we grow very little breadmaking wheat in the UK.

You say a lot of things. You are a veritable fount of BS, jim.

That is why we import bread making wheat, because we don't have the sunshine
that we need to guarantee production

- BS. 'Only' 39% of British wheat is used as livestock feed.

I'm glad you've noticed OSR,

What's that?

you'll see a lot more of it when the EU turns
over 50% of our arable acreage for biodiesel

'Biofuels: Biodevastation, Hunger & False Carbon Credits
http://www.i-sis.org.uk/BiofuelsBiod...tionHunger.php

& appearing to be highly controversial in relevant circles.

But you still haven't said where your food comes from I note

Note everything you've snipped and failed to comment upon.

"pearl" wrote in message
...
"Jim Webster" wrote in message
...

"pearl" wrote in message
...
"Jim Webster" wrote in message

then they will have to cut domestic water consumption

Don't forget vegetables.. but it's all worth it.. even the heart
disease, etc.
And what about remaining native flora and fauna.. Who cares, eh, jim.

exactly

Really? What an insane attitude. Luckily, jim's kind are in the
minority.
Most people are misinformed + addicted to fat (in this case animal fat).


tut tut pearl

what I actually said, as can be seen, was
exactly so they are going to have to cut domestic water consumption, because
there is enough water falling for agriculture, whatever sort of agriculture
you want.


so they are going to have to cut domestic water consumption, because
there is enough water falling for agriculture, whatever sort of
agriculture
you want.

Yes, you just said that. The question is, *why* is this happening?

too many people, using too much energy, too much water going on washing
cars, irrigating gardens, flushing toilets, etc etc



yep, and large areas in the UK, because that is where we produce
our
livestock here, is permanent pasture because it is unsuitable for
arable
cultivation

Arable land is, but a significant percentage is being used for
feedcrops.

in the UK a lot of arable land is incapable of growing bread making
wheat
and can only grow feed wheat, but as global warming increases we'll
probably
be able to grow bread making wheat

'WHETHER you're an avid baker or know next to nothing about
making bread, visiting the Watermill in Little Salkeld, Cumbria,
will make you want to get stuck in.
..

yep, as I said, we grow very little breadmaking wheat in the UK.

You say a lot of things. You are a veritable fount of BS, jim.

at least I don't selectively snip to change the sense of what people write




That is why we import bread making wheat, because we don't have the
sunshine
that we need to guarantee production

- BS. 'Only' 39% of British wheat is used as livestock feed.

exactly. And it is grown in the areas where it can be grown, the rest of the
land is unlikely to produce bread making wheat which is why more wheat isn't
grown


I'm glad you've noticed OSR,

What's that?

you mean you posted great screds of stuff about something you didn't
understand


you'll see a lot more of it when the EU turns
over 50% of our arable acreage for biodiesel

'Biofuels: Biodevastation, Hunger & False Carbon Credits
http://www.i-sis.org.uk/BiofuelsBiod...tionHunger.php

& appearing to be highly controversial in relevant circles.

But you still haven't said where your food comes from I note

Note everything you've snipped and failed to comment upon.
wriggle wriggle wriggle


where does your food come from
I long ago learned not to get lost in long circular arguments that were a
total waste of time. You keep trying to change the subject and get off the
embarassing issue that you don't know where your food comes from

Jim Webster

"Jim Webster" wrote in message ...

"pearl" wrote in message
...
"Jim Webster" wrote in message
...

"pearl" wrote in message
...
"Jim Webster" wrote in message

then they will have to cut domestic water consumption

Don't forget vegetables.. but it's all worth it.. even the heart
disease, etc.
And what about remaining native flora and fauna.. Who cares, eh, jim.

exactly

Really? What an insane attitude. Luckily, jim's kind are in the minority.
Most people are misinformed + addicted to fat (in this case animal fat).


tut tut pearl

what I actually said, as can be seen, was
exactly so they are going to have to cut domestic water consumption, because
there is enough water falling for agriculture, whatever sort of agriculture
you want.

You said that some vegetables require irrigation. What would
happen if drought continues and reservoirs empty altogether?

so they are going to have to cut domestic water consumption, because
there is enough water falling for agriculture, whatever sort of
agriculture
you want.

Yes, you just said that. The question is, *why* is this happening?

too many people, using too much energy, too much water going on washing
cars, irrigating gardens, flushing toilets, etc etc

Extensive deforestation for grazing and feedcrops affecting climate.

yep, and large areas in the UK, because that is where we produce
our
livestock here, is permanent pasture because it is unsuitable for
arable
cultivation

Arable land is, but a significant percentage is being used for
feedcrops.

in the UK a lot of arable land is incapable of growing bread making
wheat
and can only grow feed wheat, but as global warming increases we'll
probably
be able to grow bread making wheat

'WHETHER you're an avid baker or know next to nothing about
making bread, visiting the Watermill in Little Salkeld, Cumbria,
will make you want to get stuck in.
..

yep, as I said, we grow very little breadmaking wheat in the UK.

You say a lot of things. You are a veritable fount of BS, jim.

at least I don't selectively snip to change the sense of what people write

*I* haven't snipped anything here (and when I do I indicate it), liar.

That is why we import bread making wheat, because we don't have the
sunshine
that we need to guarantee production

- BS. 'Only' 39% of British wheat is used as livestock feed.

exactly. And it is grown in the areas where it can be grown, the rest of the
land is unlikely to produce bread making wheat which is why more wheat isn't
grown

61% does.. Wheat is grown, partly as it *is* suited to the climate.

I'm glad you've noticed OSR,

What's that?

you mean you posted great screds of stuff about something you didn't
understand

No. Clearly I don't understand what "OSR" stands for.

you'll see a lot more of it when the EU turns
over 50% of our arable acreage for biodiesel

'Biofuels: Biodevastation, Hunger & False Carbon Credits
http://www.i-sis.org.uk/BiofuelsBiod...tionHunger.php

& appearing to be highly controversial in relevant circles.

But you still haven't said where your food comes from I note

Note everything you've snipped and failed to comment upon.

wriggle wriggle wriggle

You should excel in wriggling by now with so much practice.

where does your food come from

I long ago learned not to get lost in long circular arguments that
were a total waste of time. You keep trying to change the subject
and get off the embarassing issue that meat is totally destructive.

"pearl" wrote in message
...
"Jim Webster" wrote in message
...

tut tut pearl

what I actually said, as can be seen, was
exactly so they are going to have to cut domestic water consumption,
because
there is enough water falling for agriculture, whatever sort of
agriculture
you want.

You said that some vegetables require irrigation. What would
happen if drought continues and reservoirs empty altogether?

I also said you would have to cut domestic water consumption


so they are going to have to cut domestic water consumption, because
there is enough water falling for agriculture, whatever sort of
agriculture
you want.

Yes, you just said that. The question is, *why* is this happening?

too many people, using too much energy, too much water going on washing
cars, irrigating gardens, flushing toilets, etc etc

Extensive deforestation for grazing and feedcrops affecting climate.

of course it couldn't possibly be anything to do with the vast urban
population, oh no, no way, they have to be innocent


yep, and large areas in the UK, because that is where we produce
our
livestock here, is permanent pasture because it is unsuitable
for
arable
cultivation

Arable land is, but a significant percentage is being used for
feedcrops.

in the UK a lot of arable land is incapable of growing bread making
wheat
and can only grow feed wheat, but as global warming increases we'll
probably
be able to grow bread making wheat

'WHETHER you're an avid baker or know next to nothing about
making bread, visiting the Watermill in Little Salkeld, Cumbria,
will make you want to get stuck in.
..

yep, as I said, we grow very little breadmaking wheat in the UK.

You say a lot of things. You are a veritable fount of BS, jim.

at least I don't selectively snip to change the sense of what people
write

*I* haven't snipped anything here (and when I do I indicate it), liar.

fond of that word aren't you, a guilty conscience perhaps


That is why we import bread making wheat, because we don't have the
sunshine
that we need to guarantee production

- BS. 'Only' 39% of British wheat is used as livestock feed.

exactly. And it is grown in the areas where it can be grown, the rest of
the
land is unlikely to produce bread making wheat which is why more wheat
isn't
grown

61% does.. Wheat is grown, partly as it *is* suited to the climate.

no, on the land fit for growing wheat, only 61% is suitable for bread
making. This does not prove that on land on which wheat is not grown, 61%
will be suitable for bread making



I'm glad you've noticed OSR,

What's that?

you mean you posted great screds of stuff about something you didn't
understand

No. Clearly I don't understand what "OSR" stands for.

then read what you post before posting it next time


you'll see a lot more of it when the EU turns
over 50% of our arable acreage for biodiesel

'Biofuels: Biodevastation, Hunger & False Carbon Credits
http://www.i-sis.org.uk/BiofuelsBiod...tionHunger.php

& appearing to be highly controversial in relevant circles.

But you still haven't said where your food comes from I note

Note everything you've snipped and failed to comment upon.

wriggle wriggle wriggle

You should excel in wriggling by now with so much practice.

where does your food come from

where does your food come from pearl

why are you so embarassed about its source, is it because pearl would have
to admit that it came from water deficit countries

lot of things embarass pearl, her name, her job, her diet

Jim Webster