Hi Chris,

You Kerns are indeed a brutish lot!

Having said that, whatever valuables I ever find here at Portland Bill, or
Chesil Cove - (some chance). I'll keep.

As for the police trying to keep people off the beach here... that does make
me crease.

What police? ... I once saw some on telly. ;-)

Best wishes,

Keith



"Chris Hogg" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 15:26:17 -0000, "Keith \(Dorset\)"
wrote:

Dear all,

This is a fundamental misunderstanding of cultures - yes 'cultures',
between
many of those who live by the sea and many, or most, who don't.

Wrecking is a time-old tradition whereby coastal dwellers have always
supplemented their often meagre earnings by salvaging items of value from
the shoreline at the time of a wreck.

Here in Dorset, often the whole community would venture out, often in
appalling weather to grab whatever was there for the taking.

Keith

PS It is said that ships were sometime lured onto rocks with judiciously
placed lights so that wrecking could take place.

In the mid 16th century, the impoverished tin miners of west Cornwall
had a fearsome reputation as wreckers. It is recorded by a local
historian of the time that they could strip a wreck between tides (say
12 hrs), leaving little trace. Many hundreds would descend on the
wreck, equipped with axes, saws etc. Even the ship's timbers would go.
Hapless survivors were lucky to keep their clothes, let alone their
possessions.

Wrecks were regarded as fair game and sent by God. A prayer apparently
offered up by a vicar on the Isles of Scilly when times were
particularly hard, went something like this: "O Lord we pray, not that
wrecks should happen, but if they do, let them happen on Scilly"

A sailors' prayer from the time, when in the waters off south Cornwall
(there are several versions):

"From rocks and shoals and shifting sands
And Breage and Germoe mens' hands
Good Lord, deliver us."

Breage and Germoe are two local mining villages; I live more or less
between them.





--
Chris

E-mail: christopher[dot]hogg[at]virgin[dot]net

On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 21:41:39 +0000, K wrote:

It's apparently not illegal provided that you do not attempt to hide it
and you inform the official Receiver of Wrecks, so the goods may be
returned to the owner if he/she wants them. Hence the handing out of
forms to enable people to do this.

Yes, it is not all commercial goods in those containers. One sad thing
I heard was the fact that a South African family were moving all
their possessions either to or from SA in one of those containers, and
they could see their stuff being looted on the beach.


Pam in Bristol

Martin wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 22:19:59 -0000, "Mike Lyle"
wrote:

Martin wrote:
[...]
It really makes you wonder what the police are for.

Well, OK then: what do you want them to do? I haven't heard that
anybody's committed a crime.

All those who took stuff from the wreck without completing a form
committed a crime.

No, as I understand it, you get 28 days to submit the form. I don't
think the Receiver of Wreck stands there on the beach holding his hand
out. The only thing that makes this incident different from daily
occurrences up and down our coast seems to me to be the scale.

Maybe breaking open a container would be criminal damage, of course; but
they'd have a job making it stick.

--
Mike.



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

On 23/1/07 22:04, in article ,
"Martin" wrote:

On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 14:43:45 +0000, Sacha
wrote:
snip

One man is quoted as saying that there's a 'good wreck' roughly once every
25 years but that this is 'the best' ever. ;-((

It really makes you wonder what the police are for.

Finally - finally, they've policed the area properly, told people they will
be arrested and put up road blocks. Local villagers have had their personal
belongings stolen from their houses, wheelie bins have been emptied and
stolen to take stuff from the beach and whole gangs have turned up in vans.
A farmer said he has lambs dying because he can't get them from one side of
the farm, across the lane to the other and that he found 3 strangers on the
farm this morning who were abusive when he asked them what they were up to.
The police response has been absolutely pathetic. On the day stuff first
started to come ashore there were precisely two police officers on that
beach and - surprise, surprise - the forms handed out to the scavengers
enabling police and salvagers to trace the goods, are not being handed back
in.

--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
http://www.discoverdartmoor.co.uk/
(remove weeds from address)

On 23/1/07 22:32, in article ,
"Mike Lyle" wrote:

snip

Maybe breaking open a container would be criminal damage, of course; but
they'd have a job making it stick.

They were video'd doing it in at least one case. On the side of the
container is written the names of the Swedish couple to whom the household
goods belonged. There is no way anyone could imagine such things were new
things being shipped from a factory.

--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
http://www.discoverdartmoor.co.uk/
(remove weeds from address)

Martin wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 22:32:55 -0000, "Mike Lyle"
wrote:

Martin wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 22:19:59 -0000, "Mike Lyle"
wrote:

Martin wrote:
[...]
It really makes you wonder what the police are for.

Well, OK then: what do you want them to do? I haven't heard that
anybody's committed a crime.

All those who took stuff from the wreck without completing a form
committed a crime.

No, as I understand it, you get 28 days to submit the form. I don't
think the Receiver of Wreck stands there on the beach holding his
hand out. The only thing that makes this incident different from
daily occurrences up and down our coast seems to me to be the scale.

So with zero police action who is going to know who didn't fill in a
form when the 28 days are up?

Luckily, even in this country it isn't a police responsibility to ensure
we fill in civil service forms. This really is more complicated than it
may look. No breaking and entering, no breach of the peace, nothing like
that: just an awful lot of lost property with no immediately
identifiable owners. Lost property, come to that, which will probably be
valueless after the next tide if somebody doesn't "kindly rescue" it.


How about being in the possession of an unimported untaxed vehicle
with no proof of ownership?

That sounds quite promising; but I suppose the salvage rules apply to
motor vehicles as to anything else. Even wheeling it down a public road
with no tax wouldn't actually be arrestable; and I'm sure the bikes were
all safely on other vehicles. I really don't envy the police in
situations like this: it doesn't make them look particularly good from
one point of view, but they'd look worse if they started getting
officious.

--
Mike.



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Martin wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 23:00:41 -0000, "Mike Lyle"
wrote:

Martin wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 22:32:55 -0000, "Mike Lyle"
wrote:

Martin wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 22:19:59 -0000, "Mike Lyle"
wrote:

Martin wrote:
[...]
It really makes you wonder what the police are for.

Well, OK then: what do you want them to do? I haven't heard that
anybody's committed a crime.

All those who took stuff from the wreck without completing a form
committed a crime.

No, as I understand it, you get 28 days to submit the form. I don't
think the Receiver of Wreck stands there on the beach holding his
hand out. The only thing that makes this incident different from
daily occurrences up and down our coast seems to me to be the
scale.

So with zero police action who is going to know who didn't fill in a
form when the 28 days are up?

Luckily, even in this country it isn't a police responsibility to
ensure we fill in civil service forms. This really is more
complicated than it may look. No breaking and entering, no breach of
the peace, nothing like that: just an awful lot of lost property
with no immediately identifiable owners. Lost property, come to
that, which will probably be valueless after the next tide if
somebody doesn't "kindly rescue" it.


How about being in the possession of an unimported untaxed vehicle
with no proof of ownership?

That sounds quite promising; but I suppose the salvage rules apply to
motor vehicles as to anything else.

Normal laws apply to vehicles, even if they have been taken from a
wreck.

Even wheeling it down a public road
with no tax wouldn't actually be arrestable;

No VAT has been paid on the vehicles, that is an offence.

Arrestable? Doesn't there have to be a court order? I'd have thought it
would have had to go through normal VAT recovery procedures before it
became a police matter. We are seeing that it just isn't unlawful to
possess ordinary stuff you've salvaged: that's what the 28 days thing is
about.

and I'm sure the bikes were
all safely on other vehicles. I really don't envy the police in
situations like this: it doesn't make them look particularly good
from one point of view, but they'd look worse if they started getting
officious.

If they had acted quick and closed the beach, it would have looked
better to any honest person.

Well, I don't think that's the kind of thing they can do in Britain
without a lot of deliberation. They've done it now, I believe; but it's
a big step to stop you walking your dog on the beach just because
somebody else may perhaps have committed a crime on that beach. Our
politicians may like the idea, but it isn't British. Yet.

--
Mike.



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

"Sacha" wrote in message
. uk...
On 23/1/07 11:01, in article ,
"The Reid" wrote:

On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 10:12:10 +0000, Sacha
wrote:

If it's illegal, as is reported, why are the police merely handing
out forms to be filled in and returned, telling them where the
'salvaged'
goods have gone? The whole thing is utterly bizarre - why not just
close
off the beach until the shipping company's salvage people move in?

one container had the personal effects of a Swedish couple moving to
SA, nice.

Oh, that was *awful*. A report said people were seen moving off with
family
portraits and obviously personal household effects and there were
photographs lying around on the beach, showing that young couple.
I wonder if the enquiry will show that ship to have been overloaded for
the
conditions. I know there's a large chunk of metal hanging underneath but
it
looked very top heavy to the untrained eye.
--

There was something on the radio this morning, all right, yesterday morning
now, to the effect that this ship had been aground before, about six months
ago. That may or may not be true, and may or may not be relevant, but it
brings up the old issue of seaworthiness and flags of convenience.

Steve

On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 Robert wrote:

: Here in Dorset, often the whole community would venture out, often in
: appalling weather to grab whatever was there for the taking.
:
: PS It is said that ships were sometime lured onto rocks with
: judiciously placed lights so that wrecking could take place.

Good luck to them I say. If someone has the cheek to put a ship like that to
sea, endangering our coast, then they deserve no compassion and their cargo
is 'fair game'. The only quite big problem I have with this ship's cargo is
that the redistribution is causing more damage to the beach than the
original containers were...

But that's hardly fair to those people who were entrusting their
personal belongings to a transport company and which were seen to be
stolen when reported on television as, for instance, the couple who had
emigrated to South Africa. Ok, so they were insured (I suppose) but you
can't replace something with sentimental value.

David

--
David Rance http://www.mesnil.demon.co.uk
Fido Address: 2:252/110 writing from Caversham, Reading, UK

On 24/1/07 00:07, in article , "shazzbat"
wrote:

snip

There was something on the radio this morning, all right, yesterday morning
now, to the effect that this ship had been aground before, about six months
ago. That may or may not be true, and may or may not be relevant, but it
brings up the old issue of seaworthiness and flags of convenience.

Well, at the least it raises the spectre of some careless navigation!
--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
http://www.discoverdartmoor.co.uk/
(remove weeds from address)

On 24/1/07 09:04, in article , "David
Rance" wrote:

On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 Robert wrote:

: Here in Dorset, often the whole community would venture out, often in
: appalling weather to grab whatever was there for the taking.
:
: PS It is said that ships were sometime lured onto rocks with
: judiciously placed lights so that wrecking could take place.

Good luck to them I say. If someone has the cheek to put a ship like that to
sea, endangering our coast, then they deserve no compassion and their cargo
is 'fair game'. The only quite big problem I have with this ship's cargo is
that the redistribution is causing more damage to the beach than the
original containers were...

But that's hardly fair to those people who were entrusting their
personal belongings to a transport company and which were seen to be
stolen when reported on television as, for instance, the couple who had
emigrated to South Africa. Ok, so they were insured (I suppose) but you
can't replace something with sentimental value.

David

Whatever the rights and wrongs of the ship, the shipping company, insurance
or the lack of it, it is NOT right to steal things that belong to others,
whether it's a couple moving home or a large factory in China. And this was
stealing, whether the law calls it that or not. The idea that the thieves
have 28 days in which to fill in a form and return it is just a piece of
passing the buck bureaucratic nonsense. The stuff taken from that beach is
already appearing for sale on eBay.

--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
http://www.discoverdartmoor.co.uk/
(remove weeds from address)

www.nsrafa.com
"David Rance" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 Robert wrote:

: Here in Dorset, often the whole community would venture out, often in
: appalling weather to grab whatever was there for the taking.
:
: PS It is said that ships were sometime lured onto rocks with
: judiciously placed lights so that wrecking could take place.

Good luck to them I say. If someone has the cheek to put a ship like that
to
sea, endangering our coast, then they deserve no compassion and their
cargo
is 'fair game'. The only quite big problem I have with this ship's cargo
is
that the redistribution is causing more damage to the beach than the
original containers were...

But that's hardly fair to those people who were entrusting their personal
belongings to a transport company and which were seen to be stolen when
reported on television as, for instance, the couple who had emigrated to
South Africa. Ok, so they were insured (I suppose) but you can't replace
something with sentimental value.

David



and what about the owners of the cargos of old? The Whiskey Galores etc of
all sorts of cargoes through the ages?

Why should the rules 'suddenly change'? People keep on saying that 'things
were better in the old days', right, here you have a bit of 'old days'
thrust upon us, but it doesn't suit 'certain people'!!

Rules for some but not others?

:-(((

Mike

"Sacha" wrote in message
. uk...
On 24/1/07 09:04, in article , "David
--
Sacha


and here we have someone else who like to quote the past, wanting to change
the rules on the very old 'business if you like' of beachcombing.

Sacha you are either in the past or in the present. You CANNOT swap and
change around. Press your case to outlaw beachcombing and lets have no more
of 'when I was in Jersey .......' etc etc etc

Mike


--
.................................................. .........
Royal Naval Electrical Branch Association
www.rnshipmates.co.uk
www.nsrafa.com

On 24/1/07 10:20, in article ,
"Martin" wrote:

On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 23:24:36 -0000, "Mike Lyle"
wrote:
snip Well, I don't think that's the kind of thing they can do in Britain
without a lot of deliberation. They've done it now, I believe; but it's
a big step to stop you walking your dog on the beach just because
somebody else may perhaps have committed a crime on that beach. Our
politicians may like the idea, but it isn't British. Yet.

It seems to be, they were just slow in reacting.

The irony of the above is that some people who just went down to walk their
dogs and have a look at what was going on, ended up giving in and hoicking
up stuff for themselves.

--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
http://www.discoverdartmoor.co.uk/
(remove weeds from address)

On Jan 24, 10:20*am, Martin wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 23:24:36 -0000, "MikeLyle"
[...]
Even wheeling it down a public road
with no tax wouldn't actually be arrestable;

No VAT has been paid on the vehicles, that is an offence.

Arrestable? Doesn't there have to be a court order? I'd have thought it
would have had to go through normal VAT recovery procedures before it
became a police matter. We are seeing that it just isn't unlawful to
possess ordinary stuff you've salvaged: that's what the 28 days thing is
about.It is illegal to be in possession of goods on which VAT/taxes haven't been paid.

Try entering UK with an untaxed unregistered m/bike.

Did you ever see HM C&E VAT inspectors operating at an agricultural show?

Oh, su but that's planned months in advance, with controlled exits
and entrances closed at night, hotels booked, proper car parking,
toilet facilities, all that. But I wonder how practicable it would be
to get a task force of C&E officers down to a beach at short notice to
go through the procedures 24 hours a day. In winter. We haven't even
got enough to secure all our ports under normal conditions.



and I'm sure the bikes were
all safely on other vehicles. I really don't envy the police in
situations like this: it doesn't make them look particularly good
from one point of view, but they'd look worse if they started getting
officious.

If they had acted quick and closed the beach, it would have looked
better to any honest person.

Well, I don't think that's the kind of thing they can do in Britain
without a lot of deliberation. They've done it now, I believe; but it's
a big step to stop you walking your dog on the beach just because
somebody else may perhaps have committed a crime on that beach. Our
politicians may like the idea, but it isn't British. Yet.

It seems to be, they were just slow in reacting.

As I said to Sacha, I'm on the side of the coppers in this freak
situation.

--
Mike.