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Old 24-01-2007, 02:41 PM posted to uk.rec.gardening
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On 24/1/07 10:28, in article ,
"Martin" wrote:

On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 09:23:18 +0000, Sacha
wrote:

On 24/1/07 00:07, in article , "shazzbat"
wrote:

snip

There was something on the radio this morning, all right, yesterday morning
now, to the effect that this ship had been aground before, about six months
ago. That may or may not be true, and may or may not be relevant, but it
brings up the old issue of seaworthiness and flags of convenience.

Well, at the least it raises the spectre of some careless navigation!


Start with this and work yourself through the previous years if you are
concerned about careless navigation. In your sailing days you must have been
passed by ships with nobody visible on the bridge.
http://www.mcga.gov.uk/c4mca/mcga-ne...q-newpage-1003
108.htm

" The Captainıs New Year started with a bang when the Norwegian flag cargo
ship
SUNNA grounded on the island of Swona in the Pentland Firth. The chief officer
who was on watch at the time admitted that he had fallen asleep shortly after
altering course to transit the Pentland Firth on route to Iceland from
Humberside with a cargo of 1900 tonnes of Serro Silicon. The ship was gripped
by
the ferocious Pentland tide and with the watch officer asleep no one was aware
of the ship been driven onto the rocks. ...

Penalty: Fine £2500
"


Yes indeed but some of those bridges were so far up from a sailing yacht
that it wasn't always possible to tell! But we certainly did a fair bit of
dodging about from time to time. I've never cross the channel in a sailing
boat and it's an experience I am not keen to try, either. I sailed happily
across the Med. to Cyprus and apart from the boredom, wouldn't turn a hair
at the Atlantic (probably!) but the tales I've heard of small boats in the
English Channel make me go pale just listening to them.
--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
http://www.discoverdartmoor.co.uk/
(remove weeds from address)

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Old 24-01-2007, 02:44 PM posted to uk.rec.gardening
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On 24/1/07 13:05, in article
, "Mike Lyle"
wrote:



On Jan 24, 10:20?am, Martin wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 23:24:36 -0000, "MikeLyle"

[...]
Even wheeling it down a public road
with no tax wouldn't actually be arrestable;


No VAT has been paid on the vehicles, that is an offence.


Arrestable? Doesn't there have to be a court order? I'd have thought it
would have had to go through normal VAT recovery procedures before it
became a police matter. We are seeing that it just isn't unlawful to
possess ordinary stuff you've salvaged: that's what the 28 days thing is
about.It is illegal to be in possession of goods on which VAT/taxes haven't
been paid.


Try entering UK with an untaxed unregistered m/bike.

Did you ever see HM C&E VAT inspectors operating at an agricultural show?


Oh, su but that's planned months in advance, with controlled exits
and entrances closed at night, hotels booked, proper car parking,
toilet facilities, all that. But I wonder how practicable it would be
to get a task force of C&E officers down to a beach at short notice to
go through the procedures 24 hours a day. In winter. We haven't even
got enough to secure all our ports under normal conditions.



and I'm sure the bikes were
all safely on other vehicles. I really don't envy the police in
situations like this: it doesn't make them look particularly good
from one point of view, but they'd look worse if they started getting
officious.


If they had acted quick and closed the beach, it would have looked
better to any honest person.


Well, I don't think that's the kind of thing they can do in Britain
without a lot of deliberation. They've done it now, I believe; but it's
a big step to stop you walking your dog on the beach just because
somebody else may perhaps have committed a crime on that beach. Our
politicians may like the idea, but it isn't British. Yet.


It seems to be, they were just slow in reacting.


As I said to Sacha, I'm on the side of the coppers in this freak
situation.


I don't blame the police themselves in this situation. The D&C Constabulary
is grossly over-stretched. But I do blame whoever deploys them and whoever
didn't have the sheer native common sense to fence off the access from the
get-go. A local farmer has had a chain saw stolen and tractor parts have
gone as well. Sheds and beach huts have had their doors stoved in and a
boat has been stolen, too. This is looting and theft, pure and simple, IME
and it's not edifying to think that this is yet another nail in the coffin
of honesty and good behaviour in general.

--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
http://www.discoverdartmoor.co.uk/
(remove weeds from address)

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Old 24-01-2007, 02:45 PM posted to uk.rec.gardening
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On 24/1/07 12:35, in article ,
"Martin" wrote:

On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 09:04:18 +0000, David Rance
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 Robert wrote:

: Here in Dorset, often the whole community would venture out, often in
: appalling weather to grab whatever was there for the taking.
:
: PS It is said that ships were sometime lured onto rocks with
: judiciously placed lights so that wrecking could take place.

Good luck to them I say. If someone has the cheek to put a ship like that to
sea, endangering our coast, then they deserve no compassion and their cargo
is 'fair game'. The only quite big problem I have with this ship's cargo is
that the redistribution is causing more damage to the beach than the
original containers were...


But that's hardly fair to those people who were entrusting their
personal belongings to a transport company and which were seen to be
stolen when reported on television as, for instance, the couple who had
emigrated to South Africa. Ok, so they were insured (I suppose) but you
can't replace something with sentimental value.


They said they were under-insured.


Latest reports are that their goods are being returned to them by those who
'found' them. Hope it's true.
--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
http://www.discoverdartmoor.co.uk/
(remove weeds from address)

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Old 24-01-2007, 02:48 PM posted to uk.rec.gardening
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"David Rance" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 Robert wrote:

: Here in Dorset, often the whole community would venture out, often in
: appalling weather to grab whatever was there for the taking.
:
: PS It is said that ships were sometime lured onto rocks with
: judiciously placed lights so that wrecking could take place.

Good luck to them I say. If someone has the cheek to put a ship like that
to
sea, endangering our coast, then they deserve no compassion and their
cargo
is 'fair game'. The only quite big problem I have with this ship's cargo
is
that the redistribution is causing more damage to the beach than the
original containers were...


But that's hardly fair to those people who were entrusting their personal
belongings to a transport company and which were seen to be stolen when
reported on television as, for instance, the couple who had emigrated to
South Africa. Ok, so they were insured (I suppose) but you can't replace
something with sentimental value.


Then, hopefully, they willsue the transort company for the loss, and for
compensation.

Alan



David

--
David Rance http://www.mesnil.demon.co.uk
Fido Address: 2:252/110 writing from Caversham, Reading, UK



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Old 24-01-2007, 09:48 PM posted to uk.rec.gardening
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On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 22:21:25 -0000, "Keith \(Dorset\)"
wrote:

Hi Chris,

You Kerns are indeed a brutish lot!

Having said that, whatever valuables I ever find here at Portland Bill, or
Chesil Cove - (some chance). I'll keep.


Same here. If one of those oak wine barrels drifts onto our beach I'll
have it (except I'd have to be up very early to beat the rush!).

On SW ITV1 on Tuesday of this week at 7.30pm you may have seen the
programme 'A Westcountry Childhood: The Lure of the Sea', in which two
or three 'old salts' recalled their childhood memories of the twenties
and thirties. There was some fascinating B&W cine film, including a
very timely short piece on wrecking. Pictures of crowds of people
including children hauling stuff away from a wreck in handcarts etc,
just as they are at Branscombe now. It was ever thus!

I can remember as a child rummaging over a wreck in St. Ives Bay (a
large timber-built fishing boat, I think) and coming away with some
trivial item of no value (nothing else was left!). The authorities
eventually burnt the boat, as I remember, as it was beyond salvaging.

But I feel sorry for the individuals who lost personal property,
especially as they actually saw it disappearing, or so I understand.




--
Chris

E-mail: christopher[dot]hogg[at]virgin[dot]net


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Old 24-01-2007, 11:26 PM posted to uk.rec.gardening
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Hi Chris,

Unfortunately I didn't see the programme, but I'll keep a lookout for a
repeat (which in this day and age is inevitable).

We are rather 'pigs in the middle' here and get BBC South Today and ITV
Westcountry! We get pushed off the edge on many of the TV weather maps! Not
that they are any use. The shipping forecast is much more meaningful.

Well... even that's subject to the weather - and indeed where one's house is
in the village.

I too feel sorry for the people who lost sentimental personal possessions in
the wreck... 'everything else' though would surely have been adequately
insured.

The ship was, as you may know, on its way up here to Portland harbour. As
far as I know, friends who were looking out for it (+ tugs I imagine), are
still out there - eyes peeled!

Best wishes,

Keith



"Chris Hogg" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 22:21:25 -0000, "Keith \(Dorset\)"
wrote:

Hi Chris,

You Kerns are indeed a brutish lot!

Having said that, whatever valuables I ever find here at Portland Bill, or
Chesil Cove - (some chance). I'll keep.


Same here. If one of those oak wine barrels drifts onto our beach I'll
have it (except I'd have to be up very early to beat the rush!).

On SW ITV1 on Tuesday of this week at 7.30pm you may have seen the
programme 'A Westcountry Childhood: The Lure of the Sea', in which two
or three 'old salts' recalled their childhood memories of the twenties
and thirties. There was some fascinating B&W cine film, including a
very timely short piece on wrecking. Pictures of crowds of people
including children hauling stuff away from a wreck in handcarts etc,
just as they are at Branscombe now. It was ever thus!

I can remember as a child rummaging over a wreck in St. Ives Bay (a
large timber-built fishing boat, I think) and coming away with some
trivial item of no value (nothing else was left!). The authorities
eventually burnt the boat, as I remember, as it was beyond salvaging.

But I feel sorry for the individuals who lost personal property,
especially as they actually saw it disappearing, or so I understand.




--
Chris

E-mail: christopher[dot]hogg[at]virgin[dot]net



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Old 24-01-2007, 11:28 PM posted to uk.rec.gardening
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Let me re-phrase that Chris,

......We are rather 'pigs in the middle' here and get BBC South Today and ITV
Westcountry! Well... even that's subject to the weather - and indeed where
one's house is
in the village.

We get pushed off the edge on many of the TV weather maps! Not
that they are any use. The shipping forecast is much more meaningful.

Cheers,

Keith


"Keith (Dorset)" wrote in message
...
Hi Chris,

Unfortunately I didn't see the programme, but I'll keep a lookout for a
repeat (which in this day and age is inevitable).

We are rather 'pigs in the middle' here and get BBC South Today and ITV
Westcountry! We get pushed off the edge on many of the TV weather maps!
Not that they are any use. The shipping forecast is much more meaningful.

Well... even that's subject to the weather - and indeed where one's house
is in the village.

I too feel sorry for the people who lost sentimental personal possessions
in the wreck... 'everything else' though would surely have been adequately
insured.

The ship was, as you may know, on its way up here to Portland harbour. As
far as I know, friends who were looking out for it (+ tugs I imagine), are
still out there - eyes peeled!

Best wishes,

Keith



"Chris Hogg" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 22:21:25 -0000, "Keith \(Dorset\)"
wrote:

Hi Chris,

You Kerns are indeed a brutish lot!

Having said that, whatever valuables I ever find here at Portland Bill,
or
Chesil Cove - (some chance). I'll keep.


Same here. If one of those oak wine barrels drifts onto our beach I'll
have it (except I'd have to be up very early to beat the rush!).

On SW ITV1 on Tuesday of this week at 7.30pm you may have seen the
programme 'A Westcountry Childhood: The Lure of the Sea', in which two
or three 'old salts' recalled their childhood memories of the twenties
and thirties. There was some fascinating B&W cine film, including a
very timely short piece on wrecking. Pictures of crowds of people
including children hauling stuff away from a wreck in handcarts etc,
just as they are at Branscombe now. It was ever thus!

I can remember as a child rummaging over a wreck in St. Ives Bay (a
large timber-built fishing boat, I think) and coming away with some
trivial item of no value (nothing else was left!). The authorities
eventually burnt the boat, as I remember, as it was beyond salvaging.

But I feel sorry for the individuals who lost personal property,
especially as they actually saw it disappearing, or so I understand.




--
Chris

E-mail: christopher[dot]hogg[at]virgin[dot]net





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Old 25-01-2007, 12:44 AM posted to uk.rec.gardening
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"Sacha" wrote in message
. uk...
On 24/1/07 09:04, in article , "David
Rance" wrote:

On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 Robert wrote:

: Here in Dorset, often the whole community would venture out, often in
: appalling weather to grab whatever was there for the taking.
:
: PS It is said that ships were sometime lured onto rocks with
: judiciously placed lights so that wrecking could take place.

Good luck to them I say. If someone has the cheek to put a ship like
that to
sea, endangering our coast, then they deserve no compassion and their
cargo
is 'fair game'. The only quite big problem I have with this ship's cargo
is
that the redistribution is causing more damage to the beach than the
original containers were...


But that's hardly fair to those people who were entrusting their
personal belongings to a transport company and which were seen to be
stolen when reported on television as, for instance, the couple who had
emigrated to South Africa. Ok, so they were insured (I suppose) but you
can't replace something with sentimental value.

David


Whatever the rights and wrongs of the ship, the shipping company,
insurance
or the lack of it, it is NOT right to steal things that belong to others,
whether it's a couple moving home or a large factory in China. And this
was
stealing, whether the law calls it that or not. The idea that the thieves
have 28 days in which to fill in a form and return it is just a piece of
passing the buck bureaucratic nonsense. The stuff taken from that beach
is
already appearing for sale on eBay.


But had the shipping company not overloaded the ship this calamity would not
have happened.

The blame lays fair and square with the company.

Alan


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On 24/1/07 23:44, in article ,
"Alan Holmes" wrote:


"Sacha" wrote in message
. uk...

snip Whatever the rights and wrongs of the ship, the shipping company,
insurance
or the lack of it, it is NOT right to steal things that belong to others,
whether it's a couple moving home or a large factory in China. And this
was
stealing, whether the law calls it that or not. The idea that the thieves
have 28 days in which to fill in a form and return it is just a piece of
passing the buck bureaucratic nonsense. The stuff taken from that beach
is
already appearing for sale on eBay.


But had the shipping company not overloaded the ship this calamity would not
have happened.

The blame lays fair and square with the company.

That may be so and I'm sure an inquiry will go into all that. But
regardless of that, people did not have to behave like pigs at the trough.
That was *their* choice, regardless of the causes and circumstances and what
transpired was genuinely indecent, IMO.
--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
http://www.discoverdartmoor.co.uk/
(remove weeds from address)

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"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...


But had the shipping company not overloaded the ship this calamity would
not have happened.

The blame lays fair and square with the company.

Alan



Please show where you received information that the ship was overloaded.
First I have heard of this and I find it hard to believe.

Mike


--
.................................................. .........
Royal Naval Electrical Branch Association
www.rnshipmates.co.uk
www.nsrafa.com




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In article , Sacha
writes

And today, we read of one woman whose car was hit by a falling branch in the
storms and wrecked. She, her son and her mother were lucky to escape with
their lives. Police told her to leave it where it was until she could
arrange for its disposal, because it was un-driveable. So when she went
back next day, there was a parking ticket on it AND someone had stolen the
stereo!




When I worked as the RSM's clerk in Chatham, the chief clerk came in one
morning and said he had had a puncture along the A2. He'd been followed
by another soldier who lived off camp.

They got out and jacked up the car and had taken the wheel off when
another car stopped and a man got out.


Instead of helping, the man told the CC that if they were taking the
front wheel would he mind if he took the back ones and the radio!!

Janet


--
Janet Tweedy
Dalmatian Telegraph
http://www.lancedal.demon.co.uk
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In article , "Keith (Dorset)"
writes


Wrecking is a time-old tradition whereby coastal dwellers have always
supplemented their often meagre earnings by salvaging items of value from
the shoreline at the time of a wreck.

Here in Dorset, often the whole community would venture out, often in
appalling weather to grab whatever was there for the taking.



Pardon me for my ignorance but I always thought that wreckers were the
murderous little swine who lured ships onto rocks thereby destroying
them and murdering the sailors on board.
It's one thing to salvage stuff from a beach another to deliberately
kill sailors!
Not that I'm condoning the looters but surely they aren't 'wreckers'?

janet
--
Janet Tweedy
Dalmatian Telegraph
http://www.lancedal.demon.co.uk
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On Sun, 28 Jan 2007 12:35:45 +0000, Sacha
wrote:

On 28/1/07 11:32, in article , "Janet Tweedy"
wrote:

In article , "Keith (Dorset)"
writes


Wrecking is a time-old tradition whereby coastal dwellers have always
supplemented their often meagre earnings by salvaging items of value from
the shoreline at the time of a wreck.

Here in Dorset, often the whole community would venture out, often in
appalling weather to grab whatever was there for the taking.



Pardon me for my ignorance but I always thought that wreckers were the
murderous little swine who lured ships onto rocks thereby destroying
them and murdering the sailors on board.
It's one thing to salvage stuff from a beach another to deliberately
kill sailors!
Not that I'm condoning the looters but surely they aren't 'wreckers'?

janet


No, they're not wreckers. Your definition is the correct one. Sometimes,
if passengers and crew reached the shore in safety, the wreckers would kill
them to stop them either telling the tale of what happened, or to steal the
jewellery they were wearing.



Er...you have documentary evidence to support this?

I cannot speak for other parts of the country, but as far as Cornwall
is concerned, there is no documentary evidence for the oft-repeated
accusation that ships were lured onto the rocks by wreckers waving
lamps on the shore, tying them to donkeys tails to wander along the
cliff-tops, etc. (See for example: Henderson, Essays in Cornish
History, O.U.P., 1935, pp. 172-179). It's a popular myth that owes
more to Victorian melodrama than fact. It's a moot point whether the
practice would have been very successful anyway. In the days of sail
(which is what we're talking about), lights on land far outnumbered
lights at sea. So a light was something to avoid rather than head for.

In Cornwall, the term 'wreckers' applies to those people who descend
on a wreck and strip it. It is a term still in general use, as is the
activity, given half a chance. If the people said to deliberately lure
ships onto rocks existed, I'm sure they would also be called wreckers.

Whether wreckers also harmed the survivors is less clear. There is
certainly evidence that in some cases survivors would be stripped of
their valuables and even their clothes, and left to fend for
themselves rather than being assisted, but no evidence AFAIK that they
were actually murdered (see e.g. George Borlase, writing in the
Lanisly letters, 1750 to 1756). But equally, there is plenty of
evidence of heroic efforts being made by the local population to
rescue survivors, often putting their own lives at risk and in some
cases even losing them (see Henderson again, also Noall and Farr,
'Wreck and Rescue Round the Cornish Coast', Truro Bookshop, 1965).


Perhaps things were different in the Channel Isles.


--
Chris

E-mail: christopher[dot]hogg[at]virgin[dot]net
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