On 28/1/07 22:02, in article ,
"Chris Hogg" wrote:

On Sun, 28 Jan 2007 12:35:45 +0000, Sacha
wrote:

On 28/1/07 11:32, in article , "Janet Tweedy"
wrote:

In article , "Keith (Dorset)"
writes


Wrecking is a time-old tradition whereby coastal dwellers have always
supplemented their often meagre earnings by salvaging items of value from
the shoreline at the time of a wreck.

Here in Dorset, often the whole community would venture out, often in
appalling weather to grab whatever was there for the taking.


Pardon me for my ignorance but I always thought that wreckers were the
murderous little swine who lured ships onto rocks thereby destroying
them and murdering the sailors on board.
It's one thing to salvage stuff from a beach another to deliberately
kill sailors!
Not that I'm condoning the looters but surely they aren't 'wreckers'?

janet

No, they're not wreckers. Your definition is the correct one. Sometimes,
if passengers and crew reached the shore in safety, the wreckers would kill
them to stop them either telling the tale of what happened, or to steal the
jewellery they were wearing.


Er...you have documentary evidence to support this?

Do you have some to support your denial? Just the other day I read of the
captain of a ship whose finger was hacked off so that the emerald it bore
could be stolen. Are you telling us there were no wreckers in Devon and
Cornwall?

snip
Perhaps things were different in the Channel Isles.

What? With the Casquets, the Minquiers and the Ecrehous? No point in
bothering, was there?


--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
http://www.discoverdartmoor.co.uk/
(remove weeds from address)

On Sun, 28 Jan 2007 23:53:08 +0000, Sacha
wrote:

On 28/1/07 22:02, in article ,
"Chris Hogg" wrote:

On Sun, 28 Jan 2007 12:35:45 +0000, Sacha
wrote:

On 28/1/07 11:32, in article , "Janet Tweedy"
wrote:

In article , "Keith (Dorset)"
writes


Wrecking is a time-old tradition whereby coastal dwellers have always
supplemented their often meagre earnings by salvaging items of value from
the shoreline at the time of a wreck.

Here in Dorset, often the whole community would venture out, often in
appalling weather to grab whatever was there for the taking.


Pardon me for my ignorance but I always thought that wreckers were the
murderous little swine who lured ships onto rocks thereby destroying
them and murdering the sailors on board.
It's one thing to salvage stuff from a beach another to deliberately
kill sailors!
Not that I'm condoning the looters but surely they aren't 'wreckers'?

janet

No, they're not wreckers. Your definition is the correct one. Sometimes,
if passengers and crew reached the shore in safety, the wreckers would kill
them to stop them either telling the tale of what happened, or to steal the
jewellery they were wearing.


Er...you have documentary evidence to support this?

Do you have some to support your denial?

You snipped the support! Did you not read it? I even gave you the
references.

Just the other day I read of the
captain of a ship whose finger was hacked off so that the emerald it bore
could be stolen.

That I can believe, although it is also the stuff of penny-dreadfuls!
But hacking off a finger is not the same as murdering the survivors.

Are you telling us there were no wreckers in Devon and
Cornwall?

Plenty, but not those who lured ships onto rocks.

snip
Perhaps things were different in the Channel Isles.

What? With the Casquets, the Minquiers and the Ecrehous? No point in
bothering, was there?

The same argument applies to Cornwall, especially around the Isles of
Scilly, the north Cornish coast, the east coast of Mounts Bay and
around the Lizard, which were notoriously dangerous coasts for sailors
with few ports of safety in bad weather.


--
Chris

E-mail: christopher[dot]hogg[at]virgin[dot]net

On 29/1/07 08:01, in article ,
"Chris Hogg" wrote:

On Sun, 28 Jan 2007 23:53:08 +0000, Sacha
wrote:

On 28/1/07 22:02, in article ,
"Chris Hogg" wrote:

On Sun, 28 Jan 2007 12:35:45 +0000, Sacha
wrote:

On 28/1/07 11:32, in article , "Janet
Tweedy"
wrote:

In article , "Keith (Dorset)"
writes


Wrecking is a time-old tradition whereby coastal dwellers have always
supplemented their often meagre earnings by salvaging items of value from
the shoreline at the time of a wreck.

Here in Dorset, often the whole community would venture out, often in
appalling weather to grab whatever was there for the taking.


Pardon me for my ignorance but I always thought that wreckers were the
murderous little swine who lured ships onto rocks thereby destroying
them and murdering the sailors on board.
It's one thing to salvage stuff from a beach another to deliberately
kill sailors!
Not that I'm condoning the looters but surely they aren't 'wreckers'?

janet

No, they're not wreckers. Your definition is the correct one. Sometimes,
if passengers and crew reached the shore in safety, the wreckers would kill
them to stop them either telling the tale of what happened, or to steal the
jewellery they were wearing.


Er...you have documentary evidence to support this?

Do you have some to support your denial?

You snipped the support! Did you not read it? I even gave you the
references.

Yes, I read it. But I have also read other articles to the contrary in the
past.

Just the other day I read of the
captain of a ship whose finger was hacked off so that the emerald it bore
could be stolen.

That I can believe, although it is also the stuff of penny-dreadfuls!
But hacking off a finger is not the same as murdering the survivors.

I'm still trying to find the source of that because it named the man whosse
finger was cut off because he was wearing an emerald ring.

Are you telling us there were no wreckers in Devon and
Cornwall?

Plenty, but not those who lured ships onto rocks.

snip
Perhaps things were different in the Channel Isles.

What? With the Casquets, the Minquiers and the Ecrehous? No point in
bothering, was there?

The same argument applies to Cornwall, especially around the Isles of
Scilly, the north Cornish coast, the east coast of Mounts Bay and
around the Lizard, which were notoriously dangerous coasts for sailors
with few ports of safety in bad weather.

I don't think I've ever heard of Channel Islanders deliberately wrecking
ships, though there was certainly plenty of smuggling. There is a legend of
the five Spanish Ships and it's said that St Helier was killed by seamen
whose ships he tried to lure onto rocks but they seem to remain legends.
Certainly there seem to be arguments or beliefs pro and con for the people
of Devon and Cornwall luring ships onto rocks with false lights but
obviously it's open to doubt and error.
However, the recent looting of the beach was not wrecking.

--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
http://www.discoverdartmoor.co.uk/
(remove weeds from address)

On 29/1/07 12:14, in article ,
"Martin" wrote:

On Sun, 28 Jan 2007 23:53:08 +0000, Sacha
wrote:

On 28/1/07 22:02, in article ,
"Chris Hogg" wrote:

On Sun, 28 Jan 2007 12:35:45 +0000, Sacha
wrote:

On 28/1/07 11:32, in article , "Janet
Tweedy"
wrote:

In article , "Keith (Dorset)"
writes


Wrecking is a time-old tradition whereby coastal dwellers have always
supplemented their often meagre earnings by salvaging items of value from
the shoreline at the time of a wreck.

Here in Dorset, often the whole community would venture out, often in
appalling weather to grab whatever was there for the taking.


Pardon me for my ignorance but I always thought that wreckers were the
murderous little swine who lured ships onto rocks thereby destroying
them and murdering the sailors on board.
It's one thing to salvage stuff from a beach another to deliberately
kill sailors!
Not that I'm condoning the looters but surely they aren't 'wreckers'?

janet

No, they're not wreckers. Your definition is the correct one. Sometimes,
if passengers and crew reached the shore in safety, the wreckers would kill
them to stop them either telling the tale of what happened, or to steal the
jewellery they were wearing.


Er...you have documentary evidence to support this?

Do you have some to support your denial? Just the other day I read of the
captain of a ship whose finger was hacked off so that the emerald it bore
could be stolen. Are you telling us there were no wreckers in Devon and
Cornwall?

Didn't Admiral Cloudesley Shovel have his rings stolen from his fingers?

That sounds right. What a magnificent name!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/main.../ftwreck23.xml
"Misery and starvation in the area made for barbarity, and when Admiral Sir
Cloudesley Shovel was wrecked on the Scillies in 1707, a local woman killed
him
for the sake of his rings, then stripped the body of its rich clothes. Another
local West Country record describes a drowned woman whose ears were bitten off
for the sake of her earrings."

Violent times, to put it mildly!
--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
http://www.discoverdartmoor.co.uk/
(remove weeds from address)

On Jan 29, 12:39 pm, Martin wrote:
On Mon, 29 Jan 2007 12:18:17 +0000, Sacha
wrote:
[...]
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/main...07/01/23/ftwre...
"Misery and starvation in the area made for barbarity, and when Admiral Sir
Cloudesley Shovel was wrecked on the Scillies in 1707, a local woman killed
him
for the sake of his rings, then stripped the body of its rich clothes. Another
local West Country record describes a drowned woman whose ears were bitten off
for the sake of her earrings."

Violent times, to put it mildly!

I first heard the story from a local in 1952, they can hardly blame visitors if
they repeat these stories.

Shovell's original DNB entry tells the story as fact; and the latest
edition, while cautious, clearly isn't disposed to discount it out of
hand:

[October 1706] At about eight, in dark and rainy weather, lookouts in
several ships suddenly saw rocks and the loom of the St Agnes light.
Several warning guns were fired, but before the flagship could
manoeuvre she struck the Outer Gilstone Rock in the Isles of Scilly
and sank quickly. Most of the nineteen vessels in the fleet escaped a
similar fate, but the 54-gun Romney was wrecked on the same rocks,
while the 70-gun Eagle sank off the Tearing Ledge, just south-east of
the Bishop and Clerks rocks. Of the 1315 men in these three ships,
there was only one survivor, a quartermaster from the Romney.
Shovell's body came ashore from the wreck on the south side of St
Mary's Island at Porth Hellick Cove. The fact that he came ashore more
than 6 miles from the wreck site, in close proximity to the bodies of
his two stepsons-Sir John Narbrough and James Narbrough-a pet dog, and
the flagship's captain, suggest that they had been able to leave the
wreck together in a boat. Numerous legends and traditional stories
surround these events. The most persistent is the alleged confession
of a woman in the 1730s, who on her deathbed reported that she had
found Shovell alive on the beach and, coveting the emerald ring on his
finger, took his life. As her dying wish, the parish priest sent the
ring to James, earl of Berkeley. In 1879 a similar ring was in the
possession of the Berkeley family, but has not been traced since.

There are several books on the incident.

--
Mike.

On Mon, 29 Jan 2007 09:45:16 +0000, Sacha
wrote:

big snip

However, the recent looting of the beach was not wrecking.

It was, by the traditional use of the word in these parts. You may
also call it looting if you will but that's not what it would be
called down here.

I've just checked Martin's reference, and apparently Sir Cloudesley
Shovel was killed by a woman for his emerald ring. It must have been
what you read. The story goes that when his body was found, his ring
was missing. The woman is said to have confessed on her death-bed,
many years later that she 'squeezed the life out of him' before taking
the ring. See for example

http://www.historic-uk.com/CultureUK/ADeadlyCurse.htm

I hadn't come across it before. If it happened once, it probably
happened many times.

But I still maintain there is no documentary evidence to justify the
claim that ships were deliberately lured onto rocks, or that wreckers
by your definition, existed.


--
Chris

E-mail: christopher[dot]hogg[at]virgin[dot]net

On 29/1/07 20:00, in article ,
"Chris Hogg" wrote:

On Mon, 29 Jan 2007 09:45:16 +0000, Sacha
wrote:

big snip

However, the recent looting of the beach was not wrecking.

It was, by the traditional use of the word in these parts. You may
also call it looting if you will but that's not what it would be
called down here.

I've just checked Martin's reference, and apparently Sir Cloudesley
Shovel was killed by a woman for his emerald ring. It must have been
what you read. The story goes that when his body was found, his ring
was missing. The woman is said to have confessed on her death-bed,
many years later that she 'squeezed the life out of him' before taking
the ring. See for example

http://www.historic-uk.com/CultureUK/ADeadlyCurse.htm

I hadn't come across it before. If it happened once, it probably
happened many times.

But I still maintain there is no documentary evidence to justify the
claim that ships were deliberately lured onto rocks, or that wreckers
by your definition, existed.


Goodness me. I'm very sorry that the discussion of something that happened
generations ago has upset you so much.
--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
http://www.discoverdartmoor.co.uk/
(remove weeds from address)

In article , Sacha
writes


Goodness me. I'm very sorry that the discussion of something that happened
generations ago has upset you so much.


Maybe an ancestor was cruelly misjudged?
--
Janet Tweedy
Dalmatian Telegraph
http://www.lancedal.demon.co.uk

On 30/1/07 11:58, in article , "Janet Tweedy"
wrote:

In article , Sacha
writes


Goodness me. I'm very sorry that the discussion of something that happened
generations ago has upset you so much.


Maybe an ancestor was cruelly misjudged?

I'm not even going to *think* about mine!

--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
http://www.discoverdartmoor.co.uk/
(remove weeds from address)

On Mon, 29 Jan 2007 23:15:55 +0000, Sacha
wrote:



But I still maintain there is no documentary evidence to justify the
claim that ships were deliberately lured onto rocks, or that wreckers
by your definition, existed.


Goodness me. I'm very sorry that the discussion of something that happened
generations ago has upset you so much.

Upset? Good heavens no! Although I will admit to banging on a bit at
times :-)




--
Chris

E-mail: christopher[dot]hogg[at]virgin[dot]net

On 30/1/07 18:03, in article ,
"Chris Hogg" wrote:

On Mon, 29 Jan 2007 23:15:55 +0000, Sacha
wrote:



But I still maintain there is no documentary evidence to justify the
claim that ships were deliberately lured onto rocks, or that wreckers
by your definition, existed.


Goodness me. I'm very sorry that the discussion of something that happened
generations ago has upset you so much.

Upset? Good heavens no! Although I will admit to banging on a bit at
times :-)

I really thought I'd offended you or your ancestors! It's the problem with
the written as opposed to the spoken, word, I suppose!

--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
http://www.discoverdartmoor.co.uk/
(remove weeds from address)

"Sacha" wrote in message
. uk...
On 30/1/07 18:03, in article ,
"Chris Hogg" wrote:

On Mon, 29 Jan 2007 23:15:55 +0000, Sacha
wrote:



But I still maintain there is no documentary evidence to justify the
claim that ships were deliberately lured onto rocks, or that wreckers
by your definition, existed.


Goodness me. I'm very sorry that the discussion of something that
happened
generations ago has upset you so much.

Upset? Good heavens no! Although I will admit to banging on a bit at
times :-)

I really thought I'd offended you or your ancestors! It's the problem
with
the written as opposed to the spoken, word, I suppose!

Well you have offended my ancestors, but I can't say which ones as I don't
talk to them much these days!

Alan

On 30/1/07 22:32, in article ,
"Alan Holmes" wrote:


"Sacha" wrote in message
. uk...
snip

I really thought I'd offended you or your ancestors! It's the problem
with
the written as opposed to the spoken, word, I suppose!

Well you have offended my ancestors, but I can't say which ones as I don't
talk to them much these days!

Alan

I think I'm quite glad to hear that, Alan!
--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
http://www.discoverdartmoor.co.uk/
(remove weeds from address)