Following up to Sacha :

Actually, all you have to do is say "I don't want the bag, thank you" and
take the receipt which is proof of purchase, not the bag.

That's what I said, but it seems this isn't an acceptable request by UK
shopkeepers. I've been told, so now I know.
--
Tim C.

"Rupert (W.Yorkshire)" writes


If you believe saving energy is important then I can assure you that brand
new white goods (Fridges/freezers/washers etc) are considerably more
efficient than 10 year old models.

If you're starting from a position of needing a new fridge, yes.

How do the calculations go when it's a choice of
a) using the old one another 5-10 years, compared with
b) manufacture a new one 5-10 years earlier than otherwise, and dispose
of the old one 5-10 years earlier


--
Kay

"George.com" wrote in message
...

A line from a Sting song written 22 years
ago now sums it up for me "forever conditioned to believe that we
can't live here and be happy with less".

rob


So was that the point at which Sting decided he no longer wanted to
be a multimillionaire rock star, gave all his money away to charity
and stopped making records which people could obviously live without ?

Seemingly not, if his discography is anything to go by.

Poor old Sting eh ? "Forever conditioned" to be a multimillionaire
rock star.

Our thoughts go with him, I'm sure.



michael adams

....

On 25 Jan, 12:05, Martin wrote:

Price doesn't necessarily mean quality.

To me it does, especially if this indicates an energy efficiency
rating. I remember all too well the beginning of the bargain white
goods, tvs and hi fis (from japan and china) being sold in supermarkets
in the early 70s when people started bringing to our electrical shop
faulty and broken goods, hangry and annoyed at us for not being able to
repair them. I have always beleived that if you don't put in the price
for the quality, you can't hope for the good to last or work
efficiently. However, I do think there's bargains - but these bargains
have fallen out of a van or were found on a Devon's beach )

Those of us who have lived in NL too long

.... still won't re-heat spinash. Now what is this with the Dutch and
the re-cooking of spinash?! Is it really poisonnous?

Following up to K :

"Rupert (W.Yorkshire)" writes


If you believe saving energy is important then I can assure you that brand
new white goods (Fridges/freezers/washers etc) are considerably more
efficient than 10 year old models.

If you're starting from a position of needing a new fridge, yes.

How do the calculations go when it's a choice of
a) using the old one another 5-10 years, compared with
b) manufacture a new one 5-10 years earlier than otherwise, and dispose
of the old one 5-10 years earlier



From New Scientist Print Edition 12 May 1990

"To a householder, the power used to cool food may seem modest: after all,
even a large fridge-freezer costs only about 12 pence a day to run. But
there are more than 30 million fridges, freezers and fridge-freezers in
British homes, which between them consume more than GBP 1 billion worth of
electricity in a year. The average demand on the national grid, measured at
consumers' meters, is at least 2000 megawatts, the equivalent of the
continuous output of two large power stations. If these two power stations
generate electricity from coal, Britain's fridges and freezers are
responsible for emitting about 15 million tonnes of carbon dioxide a year
into the atmosphere...."

and...

"...Going one better, Britain could replace its existing stock of 30
million fridges, freezers and fridge-freezers with state-of-the-art
appliances and run the lot on just 200 megawatts. This means that we would
not need about 1800 megawatts of power and that we could therefore avoid
building about GBP 5 billion worth of power stations and infrastructure."


What the cost of disposal of the old fridges would be is anybody's guess.


--
Tim C.

"K" wrote in message
...
"Rupert (W.Yorkshire)" writes


If you believe saving energy is important then I can assure you that brand
new white goods (Fridges/freezers/washers etc) are considerably more
efficient than 10 year old models.

If you're starting from a position of needing a new fridge, yes.

How do the calculations go when it's a choice of
a) using the old one another 5-10 years, compared with
b) manufacture a new one 5-10 years earlier than otherwise, and dispose of
the old one 5-10 years earlier


--
Kay

I don't know and worse than that it is almost impossible to get the figures
to do the calculation. I doubt that any correct calculated data is
available.
Perhaps all goods should have a sticker which states "Energy used to make
this":-)
Incidentally I did replace and old fridge with a new one on the basis that
the energy saving cost (to me) negated the new cost before the estimated
demise of the new fridge.
I think that demonstrates the general misconceptions about environmental
and economic issues:-)

On 25/1/07 12:49, in article ,
"Tim C." wrote:

Following up to Sacha :

Actually, all you have to do is say "I don't want the bag, thank you" and
take the receipt which is proof of purchase, not the bag.

That's what I said, but it seems this isn't an acceptable request by UK
shopkeepers. I've been told, so now I know.

Of course. ;-) IME round here, many people shop with baskets or shopping
bags and those lethal little wheelie bags, so are often asked "do you want a
bag", rather than the other way round!
--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
http://www.discoverdartmoor.co.uk/
(remove weeds from address)

On 25/1/07 13:25, in article , "michael
adams" wrote:


"George.com" wrote in message
...

A line from a Sting song written 22 years
ago now sums it up for me "forever conditioned to believe that we
can't live here and be happy with less".

rob


So was that the point at which Sting decided he no longer wanted to
be a multimillionaire rock star, gave all his money away to charity
and stopped making records which people could obviously live without ?

Seemingly not, if his discography is anything to go by.

Poor old Sting eh ? "Forever conditioned" to be a multimillionaire
rock star.

Our thoughts go with him, I'm sure.

Good job. That retrospective planning permission can cost a lot of
money....
--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
http://www.discoverdartmoor.co.uk/
(remove weeds from address)

Following up to "La Puce" :

Price doesn't necessarily mean quality.

To me it does, especially if this indicates an energy efficiency
rating.

If only the extra costs in manufacture of the better products were passed
on, I would agree. But that's not how it is in the real world. Most charge
what the market will stand. Whether the more expensive product with a
"name" is better than the cheaper no-name one is a matter of checking the
label, or a dubious matter of trust. Personally I know which I'd choose.
--
Tim C.

"Tim C." wrote in message
...
Following up to K :

"Rupert (W.Yorkshire)" writes


If you believe saving energy is important then I can assure you that
brand
new white goods (Fridges/freezers/washers etc) are considerably more
efficient than 10 year old models.

If you're starting from a position of needing a new fridge, yes.

How do the calculations go when it's a choice of
a) using the old one another 5-10 years, compared with
b) manufacture a new one 5-10 years earlier than otherwise, and dispose
of the old one 5-10 years earlier



From New Scientist Print Edition 12 May 1990

"To a householder, the power used to cool food may seem modest: after all,
even a large fridge-freezer costs only about 12 pence a day to run. But
there are more than 30 million fridges, freezers and fridge-freezers in
British homes, which between them consume more than GBP 1 billion worth of
electricity in a year. The average demand on the national grid, measured
at
consumers' meters, is at least 2000 megawatts, the equivalent of the
continuous output of two large power stations. If these two power stations
generate electricity from coal, Britain's fridges and freezers are
responsible for emitting about 15 million tonnes of carbon dioxide a year
into the atmosphere...."

and...

"...Going one better, Britain could replace its existing stock of 30
million fridges, freezers and fridge-freezers with state-of-the-art
appliances and run the lot on just 200 megawatts. This means that we would
not need about 1800 megawatts of power and that we could therefore avoid
building about GBP 5 billion worth of power stations and infrastructure."


What the cost of disposal of the old fridges would be is anybody's guess.


--
Tim C.

So the question is how much energy is required to replace and distribute
"new for old fridges" to everyone. =NFO (LE=Life expectancy)
If NFO 1800 x LE then it's a good job.

We must take into account the anti depressant drug manufacture energy cost
for all the overworked and then redundant fridge production workers.

On 25 Jan, 14:12, Martin wrote:

As long as I am surrounded by green houses burning vast amounts
of gas to grow tasteless vegetables, and flowers, that can be produced naturally
elsewhere, I think I have the right to use a ten year old washing machine; and
older deep freezes that are stuffed full with home grown vegetables. The deep
freezes are so well insulated that the pumps rarely run.

LOL!!! Yes, you have a right indeed!

On 25/1/07 14:16, in article ,
"Martin" wrote:

On Thu, 25 Jan 2007 12:35:01 +0000, Sacha
wrote:
snip
My pet peeve is that cling wrap stuff around
bananas and avocados, which already come with their own nature-given
wrapping! Why, in heaven's name do 'they' DO that?!

and cucumbers.

Oh YES! Why can I buy them naked in a greengrocer's but not in a
supermarket?

--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
http://www.discoverdartmoor.co.uk/
(remove weeds from address)

"Martin" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 25 Jan 2007 14:59:26 +0100, Tim C. wrote:

Following up to K :

"Rupert (W.Yorkshire)" writes


If you believe saving energy is important then I can assure you that
brand
new white goods (Fridges/freezers/washers etc) are considerably more
efficient than 10 year old models.

If you're starting from a position of needing a new fridge, yes.

How do the calculations go when it's a choice of
a) using the old one another 5-10 years, compared with
b) manufacture a new one 5-10 years earlier than otherwise, and dispose
of the old one 5-10 years earlier



From New Scientist Print Edition 12 May 1990

"To a householder, the power used to cool food may seem modest: after all,
even a large fridge-freezer costs only about 12 pence a day to run. But
there are more than 30 million fridges, freezers and fridge-freezers in
British homes, which between them consume more than GBP 1 billion worth of
electricity in a year. The average demand on the national grid, measured
at
consumers' meters, is at least 2000 megawatts, the equivalent of the
continuous output of two large power stations. If these two power stations
generate electricity from coal, Britain's fridges and freezers are
responsible for emitting about 15 million tonnes of carbon dioxide a year
into the atmosphere...."

and...

"...Going one better, Britain could replace its existing stock of 30
million fridges, freezers and fridge-freezers with state-of-the-art
appliances and run the lot on just 200 megawatts. This means that we would
not need about 1800 megawatts of power and that we could therefore avoid
building about GBP 5 billion worth of power stations and infrastructure."


What the cost of disposal of the old fridges would be is anybody's guess.

What about the comparative cost of buying supermarket vegetables, some of
which
have almost circled the earth and been frozen and stored against storing
your
own home grown vegetables in a deep freeze?
--

Martin


Surely we need to make a comparison of the environmental cost and not a
financial cost. The two things should not be mixed up.

Following up to Martin :

On Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:49:20 +0100, Tim C. wrote:

Following up to Sacha :

Actually, all you have to do is say "I don't want the bag, thank you" and
take the receipt which is proof of purchase, not the bag.

That's what I said, but it seems this isn't an acceptable request by UK
shopkeepers. I've been told, so now I know.

It is in every supermarket I have been in UK.

Sure they offer, even /expect/ you to want a bag, but I've never been told
I have to have one.
--
Tim C.

Following up to Martin :

What about the comparative cost of buying supermarket vegetables, some of which
have almost circled the earth and been frozen and stored against storing your
own home grown vegetables in a deep freeze?

Doesn't bear thinking about.
--
Tim C.