"Nick Maclaren" wrote in message
...

In article ,
"'Mike'" writes:
|
| I was at the Ideal Home Exhibition in Bournemouth a couple of weekends
ago
| and was interested in the Solar Panels for the roof. I am afraid the
| salesmen were too technical on how the things were made to tell me the
| advantages!!!

Sorry, but what you say is a recipe for fraud. When customers are too
stupid or ignorant to know when they are being flagrantly lied to,

Not exactly 'lied' to in another demonstration, but not 'told the whole
truth'.

Steam Carpet Cleaner. "Look how good it is on this Wax Crayon mark". Few
runs backwards and forwards and there it is clean :-))

Steam? Wax? :-))

Biro? Paint? Something the dog has brought in? ........... Something
unknown? ......

..
NO!

Mike
Who didn't come down in the last shower of rain


--
www.rneba.org.uk for the latest pictures of the very first reunion and
Inaugural General Meeting. Nothing less than a fantastic success.
The Royal Naval Electrical Branch Association.
'THE' Association if you served in the Electrical Branch of the Royal Navy
www.rneba.org.uk to find your ex-Greenie mess mates
www.iowtours.com for all ex-Service Reunions. More being added regularly
"Navy Days" Portsmouth 25th - 27th July 2008. RN Shipmates will have a Stand

"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
t...

"John Vanini" wrote in message
...
snip most


I hope this helps.

Thank you, John, it was very informative - and yes, helpful. Saved me from
trying to find all that conflicting stuff!

I'm genuinely grateful, your post has been saved.

Mary

You're very welcome, Mary! As I had spent so long trying to get at the truth
it was worthwhile passing it on!

Take care and best regards,

John

"David (Normandy)" writes
A timely reminder! Years ago on a marketing course I was taught to sell
"benefits" not "features". However, it is so easy to slip into the trap you
mentioned. I was just thinking about a website I am going to design,
promoting some software I'd written recently. The problem being of course my
detailed knowledge about all the wonderful details of how the software works
and all it's technical features. The design I had in mind would have "bored
the pants off prospective customers" instead of teasing them to buy because
of "what it can do for them".

Yeah, and those of us who want to know more than empty promises get
really frustrated because there's not a spec in sight. It's a sad state
when you have to resort to review sites and other users to find out
factual info that the seller should have told you.
--
Kay

David Rance writes
On Wed, 12 Sep 2007 John Vanini wrote:

I like to know the full story and hate being told to this or don't do that
without being given a good reason why. If I know why, I can make my own
judgements in future.

I quite agree! But this was a failing of the head gardeners and garden
writers of yesteryear which is why we had a generation of people who
followed the advice that they had been given without having the
slightest idea why. And then people said that they must be right
because they had been taught by such-and-such a person - and so the
ignorance continued.

I remember the same thing when I was a child. If I asked why something
was done, it was interpreted as a challenge. "Don't ask questions. Just
DO it!"

Not enough, though. Too many written instructions still say 'do this' or
'don't do this' without telling you the consequences if you disobey.
'Avoid alcohol while using this medicine'. Why? Will it make the
medicine less effective? Will it make me ill? Will it simply exacerbate
the effects of the alcohol? If the latter, then I'll stick with the
alcohol but just drink a bit less, or be a bit more careful.

I want the information to be able to make my own decision.

And while I'm on this rant - my train is cancelled, I can either go via
a different station or take a bus. So I ask the train information point
what time the train will reach my station. 'Oh, we don't have the
information about that. You'll have to go to the intermediate station
and ask there'. 'Will I be quicker by bus?' 'That is your decision
entirely'. How can I make a decision if I have no information to base it
on? Grrr.
--
Kay

In reply to K ) who wrote this in
, I, Marvo, say :


I want the information to be able to make my own decision.

Sadly, K, you are in a minority, being capable of assimilating said
information and acting thereupon.

I think so much has to be dumbed-down in order for the burk-at-large to use
something without actually killing himself with it.

"K" wrote in message
...
David Rance writes
On Wed, 12 Sep 2007 John Vanini wrote:

I like to know the full story and hate being told to this or don't do
that
without being given a good reason why. If I know why, I can make my own
judgements in future.

I quite agree! But this was a failing of the head gardeners and garden
writers of yesteryear which is why we had a generation of people who
followed the advice that they had been given without having the slightest
idea why. And then people said that they must be right because they had
been taught by such-and-such a person - and so the ignorance continued.

I remember the same thing when I was a child. If I asked why something was
done, it was interpreted as a challenge. "Don't ask questions. Just DO
it!"

Not enough, though. Too many written instructions still say 'do this' or
'don't do this' without telling you the consequences if you disobey.
'Avoid alcohol while using this medicine'. Why? Will it make the medicine
less effective? Will it make me ill? Will it simply exacerbate the effects
of the alcohol? If the latter, then I'll stick with the alcohol but just
drink a bit less, or be a bit more careful.

I want the information to be able to make my own decision.

And while I'm on this rant - my train is cancelled, I can either go via a
different station or take a bus. So I ask the train information point what
time the train will reach my station. 'Oh, we don't have the information
about that. You'll have to go to the intermediate station and ask there'.
'Will I be quicker by bus?' 'That is your decision entirely'. How can I
make a decision if I have no information to base it on? Grrr.
--
Kay

Ah!! This is the point Kay

The example was a telephone salesman who knew what the telephone would do,
and what it would not do. Yes you can talk to your friends. Yes you can talk
to two of your friends at once. Yes it has a loudspeaker so all the people
in the room can hear etc etc etc

But when another Salesman in an overnight hotel asked him how the telephone
worked, he didn't know and was ridiculed as selling something he didn't know
how it worked.

He spent hours studying and knew more about telephones than Bell. How many
wires there were under the High Street, how an exchange worked and how many
soldered connections, how long it took to develop and how much it cost to
develop. Does the customer know this? No.

Toooooooooooooooo much knowledge was dangerous.

Mike


--
www.rneba.org.uk for the latest pictures of the very first reunion and
Inaugural General Meeting. Nothing less than a fantastic success.
The Royal Naval Electrical Branch Association.
'THE' Association if you served in the Electrical Branch of the Royal Navy
www.rneba.org.uk to find your ex-Greenie mess mates
www.iowtours.com for all ex-Service Reunions. More being added regularly
"Navy Days" Portsmouth 25th - 27th July 2008. RN Shipmates will have a Stand

"K" wrote in message
...
"David (Normandy)" writes
A timely reminder! Years ago on a marketing course I was taught to sell
"benefits" not "features". However, it is so easy to slip into the trap
you
mentioned. I was just thinking about a website I am going to design,
promoting some software I'd written recently. The problem being of course
my
detailed knowledge about all the wonderful details of how the software
works
and all it's technical features. The design I had in mind would have
"bored
the pants off prospective customers" instead of teasing them to buy
because
of "what it can do for them".

Yeah, and those of us who want to know more than empty promises get really
frustrated because there's not a spec in sight. It's a sad state when you
have to resort to review sites and other users to find out factual info
that the seller should have told you.
--
Kay

Sorry, I don't think I was clear. Allow me to elaborate. I'm not saying
there should be no details or facts and information, it is a case of where
they are positioned. Take the following scenario for example:

A lady goes into a computer shop and says "My son's family live in
Australia. He says if I get a computer I will be able to talk to him free of
charge on the telephone, send something called "e-mails" and read something
he's got called a "blog".

What the lady wants to buy is not really a computer but a means of
communicating with her family. A good salesman would realise this and
appreciate from her description that she is not computer literate. He would
not just plunge in with something like "Well you've come to the right place,
we've got the latest hardware with choices of Vista, XP, Macs and even
Linux. Pick AMD or Intel processors 32 or 64 bit with anything from 500 mega
bytes to 4 giga bytes of RAM, internal or external or external high capacity
hard drives with fast seek times and more USB ports than you can shake a
stick at!

While the detail should be given if necessary or required, the above would
just confuse the hell out of the lady. If I was the customer my requirements
would be entirely different and a detailed technical discussion would be
appropriate.

With software (or anything else) it makes sense for the opening page (or
sales pitch) to say in a very short summary what it is for and what benefits
people would get from buying it. There can be links (or discussion) to
deeper and deeper levels of technical details. The person viewing the site
(or talking to a salesman) chooses the level of information that is relevant
to them. A good salesman has both detailed technical knowledge of his
products (often lacking in many stores) and the ability to listen to what
the potential customer actually wants and help guide their buying decision.

I think there is a saying something along the lines that a good salesman
uses his ears more than this tongue.

David.

"David (Normandy)" wrote in message
...

"K" wrote in message
...
"David (Normandy)" writes
A timely reminder! Years ago on a marketing course I was taught to sell
"benefits" not "features". However, it is so easy to slip into the trap
you
mentioned. I was just thinking about a website I am going to design,
promoting some software I'd written recently. The problem being of course
my
detailed knowledge about all the wonderful details of how the software
works
and all it's technical features. The design I had in mind would have
"bored
the pants off prospective customers" instead of teasing them to buy
because
of "what it can do for them".

Yeah, and those of us who want to know more than empty promises get
really frustrated because there's not a spec in sight. It's a sad state
when you have to resort to review sites and other users to find out
factual info that the seller should have told you.
--
Kay

Sorry, I don't think I was clear. Allow me to elaborate. I'm not saying
there should be no details or facts and information, it is a case of where
they are positioned. Take the following scenario for example:

A lady goes into a computer shop and says "My son's family live in
Australia. He says if I get a computer I will be able to talk to him free
of charge on the telephone, send something called "e-mails" and read
something he's got called a "blog".

What the lady wants to buy is not really a computer but a means of
communicating with her family. A good salesman would realise this and
appreciate from her description that she is not computer literate. He
would not just plunge in with something like "Well you've come to the
right place, we've got the latest hardware with choices of Vista, XP, Macs
and even Linux. Pick AMD or Intel processors 32 or 64 bit with anything
from 500 mega bytes to 4 giga bytes of RAM, internal or external or
external high capacity hard drives with fast seek times and more USB ports
than you can shake a stick at!

While the detail should be given if necessary or required, the above would
just confuse the hell out of the lady. If I was the customer my
requirements would be entirely different and a detailed technical
discussion would be appropriate.

With software (or anything else) it makes sense for the opening page (or
sales pitch) to say in a very short summary what it is for and what
benefits people would get from buying it. There can be links (or
discussion) to deeper and deeper levels of technical details. The person
viewing the site (or talking to a salesman) chooses the level of
information that is relevant to them. A good salesman has both detailed
technical knowledge of his products (often lacking in many stores) and the
ability to listen to what the potential customer actually wants and help
guide their buying decision.

I think there is a saying something along the lines that a good salesman
uses his ears more than this tongue.

David.

When I am approached by an Association to organise their reunion, I ask a
lot of questions as to what they want. 'No two Association's reunions are
the same' http://www.iowtours.com/whatwecando.asp refers ;-))

And I quite agree with you about the old lady who 'just wants to send
emails', my point with my example of the Telephone salesman.

"You have two ears and one mouth. You should use them in the same
proportion"

Mike


--
www.rneba.org.uk for the latest pictures of the very first reunion and
Inaugural General Meeting. Nothing less than a fantastic success.
The Royal Naval Electrical Branch Association.
'THE' Association if you served in the Electrical Branch of the Royal Navy
www.rneba.org.uk to find your ex-Greenie mess mates
www.iowtours.com for all ex-Service Reunions. More being added regularly
"Navy Days" Portsmouth 25th - 27th July 2008. RN Shipmates will have a Stand

I think there is a saying something along the lines that a good salesman
uses his ears more than this tongue.

David.


"You have two ears and one mouth. You should use them in the same
proportion"

Mike


Yes! That's the saying I was thinking of.

David.

In article ,
"Uncle Marvo" writes:
|
| Sadly, K, you are in a minority, being capable of assimilating said
| information and acting thereupon.
|
| I think so much has to be dumbed-down in order for the burk-at-large to use
| something without actually killing himself with it.

Well, this is somewhere I agree with the Blessed Margaret. The solution
is to provide LESS protection for such people and not MORE - they will
then learn, or eliminate themselves from the gene pool.

But they SHOULD be provided with help if they want to improve themselves,
which is where I dissent from her position.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

In article ,
"David \(Normandy\)" writes:
|
| A lady goes into a computer shop and says "My son's family live in
| Australia. He says if I get a computer I will be able to talk to him free of
| charge on the telephone, send something called "e-mails" and read something
| he's got called a "blog".
|
| What the lady wants to buy is not really a computer but a means of
| communicating with her family. A good salesman would realise this and
| appreciate from her description that she is not computer literate. He would
| not just plunge in with something like "Well you've come to the right place,
| we've got the latest hardware with choices of Vista, XP, Macs and even
| Linux. Pick AMD or Intel processors 32 or 64 bit with anything from 500 mega
| bytes to 4 giga bytes of RAM, internal or external or external high capacity
| hard drives with fast seek times and more USB ports than you can shake a
| stick at!

And exactly why it it any better to say "This runs the latest
version of Microsoft Vista and can do everything you need"?

Putting her off computers for life is more ethical.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

In reply to Nick Maclaren ) who wrote this in
, I, Marvo, say :

In article ,
"Uncle Marvo" writes:

Sadly, K, you are in a minority, being capable of assimilating said
information and acting thereupon.

I think so much has to be dumbed-down in order for the
burk-at-large to use something without actually killing himself
with it.

Well, this is somewhere I agree with the Blessed Margaret. The
solution is to provide LESS protection for such people and not MORE -
they will then learn, or eliminate themselves from the gene pool.

If you did that, there would be a whole raft of unemployed
ex-Health-and-Safety people.

But they SHOULD be provided with help if they want to improve
themselves, which is where I dissent from her position.

I agree.

Who the Heck is The Blessed Margaret?

In reply to Nick Maclaren ) who wrote this in
, I, Marvo, say :

latest version of Microsoft Vista and can do everything you need

I can spot an oxymoron a mile off.

Yeah, and those of us who want to know more than empty promises get really
frustrated because there's not a spec in sight. It's a sad state when you
have to resort to review sites and other users to find out factual info
that the seller should have told you.
--
Kay

Further to my other reply, I do agree there is a general lack of
availability of detailed specs for lots of things.
Recently I've been trying (without success) to buy a new, high spec, Vista
notebook computer that I can also install Linux Ubuntu on. It would be
really nice to source one knowing that the hardware drivers for Linux
existed for it, instead of hunting around after purchase and not getting all
the important ones.

I usually buy HP hardware and tried a pre-sales enquiry to HP asking if they
could recommend any of their hardware that fitted the bill, but they
eventually sent me a very short email saying in effect "no - we can't be
bothered". It has cost them an immediate sale and the loss of a long term
customer.

David.

In article ,
"Uncle Marvo" writes:
|
| Who the Heck is The Blessed Margaret?

The Iron Lady.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.