On 13/1/08 16:38, in article
, "Sally Thompson"
wrote:

On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 15:54:37 +0000, Sacha wrote
(in article ) :

On 13/1/08 15:24, in article
, "Sally Thompson"
wrote:

On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 14:49:19 +0000, Sacha wrote
(in article ) :

On 13/1/08 14:41, in article ,
"Martin" wrote:

On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 14:29:25 +0000, Sacha

wrote:

On 13/1/08 14:19, in article
, "Sally Thompson"
wrote:

On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 12:59:24 +0000, Eddy wrote
(in article ):

Stewart Robert Hinsley wrote:
I have difficulty understanding why
1) being about to teach about the world wars and the Holocaust should
be
so noteworthy as to be worthy of being declared in the staff room.
2) why doing so should be the occasion of being the recipient of black
looks.

It's because "anything to do with guns and war and killing" is simply
wrong, Stewart! Guns, and war, and killing is thought to equate to
patriotism, nationalism, jingoism - and these things too equate to each
other and are also thought to be just as wrong!

I believe the attitude stems from fashion, ignorance, fear, and
irresponsibility.

Eddy.


I should point out that as I understand it (check with the BBC if you
don't
believe me) in England, teaching children about the Holocaust is
_/compulsory/, and it is not banned elsewhere in the UK.

BUT didn't I read somewhere just recently that there is now talk of
banning
such teaching because it is offensive to Muslims?

What one reads in the papers and reality are often very different.

In what way is the holocaust offensive to Muslims, other than that some of
them
are being treated as untermenschen by those who didn't learn from recent
history?

This is what The Times Online has to say:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle1600686.ece

And this is what the BBC has to say:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/6563429.stm

Thanks, Sally. I'm glad to read that teaching about the Holocaust is to be
compulsory. IMO religion should have nothing to do with teaching about
wickedness and the consequences of moral inertia.

I read it as already being compulsory. Sorry if I came on a bit strong, but
I was so fed up with getting this round-robin email, which has apparently
being going around since last April. When we wrote back that it was untrue,
the recipient went into high dudgeon and practically accused us of being
anti-semitic. Sigh.


I'd forgotten that I got it, too and then later read the newspaper reports.
You didn't come on too strong - I think it's important to get things like
that straight.

--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(remove weeds from address)
'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
children.'

Sacha wrote:
If you feel you'd like to Eddy, do email me and tell me about your family
and which island they were in - not Alderney, I hope! Remove the 'weeds'
from my address for email.

Thanks, Sacha. That's really kind. The truth is that the whole episode
is riven with pain. My parents went to an extraordinary length to
forget what the internment did to my grandparents & uncle but their
effort at suppression ultimately failed, and tragically. At the same
time, my father who amazingly survived five years flying in Bomber
Command, suffered horrific flashbacks & memories until he died. It's
all awful. I have looked into it all in depth only recently and a
little while ago saw that for my own happiness I needed to put it
largely aside, though never entirely of course.

You could say that this attitude is part of the problem why the young
don't care or know about what happened. Even we, the children, of those
who were directly involved, find it too painful to constantly remember!

Best Wishes,
Eddy.

On 14/1/08 10:02, in article ,
"Eddy" wrote:

Sacha wrote:
If you feel you'd like to Eddy, do email me and tell me about your family
and which island they were in - not Alderney, I hope! Remove the 'weeds'
from my address for email.

Thanks, Sacha. That's really kind. The truth is that the whole episode
is riven with pain. My parents went to an extraordinary length to
forget what the internment did to my grandparents & uncle but their
effort at suppression ultimately failed, and tragically. At the same
time, my father who amazingly survived five years flying in Bomber
Command, suffered horrific flashbacks & memories until he died. It's
all awful. I have looked into it all in depth only recently and a
little while ago saw that for my own happiness I needed to put it
largely aside, though never entirely of course.

You could say that this attitude is part of the problem why the young
don't care or know about what happened. Even we, the children, of those
who were directly involved, find it too painful to constantly remember!

Best Wishes,
Eddy.


It sounds truly appalling and I am so sorry to hear that your family
suffered such tragedy. Mine, by comparison, came through it unscathed but
with strong memories of what it was to live under enemy rule and to be cut
off from the mainland in every sense of that phrase. My grandfather, who
was Rector of one of the parishes had one of the illegal wireless sets, so
they got some English news from time to time but of course, lived in fear
always, of being discovered. Unlike many who became very frugal with food,
my mother became a major 'over caterer' and swears it's because of their
near starvation during the Occupation. None of my family was, thank
heaven, interned but one of my mother's friends was the only British
survivor of Belsen and his sister died in Auschwitz. They were sent there
for harbouring a young Russian prisoner of war who had escaped. All this
ended only 60 or so years ago and it slips so quickly from public knowledge
and its dreadful implications are forgotten.
--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(remove weeds from address)
'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
children.'

Martin wrote:

The point is

a) Don't snip context

One of your examples sufficed in reply. Out of courtesy to other
readers one should not automatically allow the whole of the message to
which one is replying to be reproduced, unless the whole is relevant,
don't you think?

b) Other countries have a public holidays to commemorate the end of WW1 and WW2.

And to repeat my point: because they do it, we SHOULD do it too? They
are our models? No further questions asked? No! "Keeping up with
other nations" is a large part of the reason why we have started upon
the approachto global catastrophe.

c) Do try to keep up at the back and stop asking daft questions

Yes, sir! Sorry, sir! Will not ask questions, sir! Questions not
permitted. Must always agree. Very sorry.

Eddy.

Sacha wrote:
It sounds truly appalling and I am so sorry to hear that your family
suffered such tragedy. Mine, by comparison, came through it unscathed but
with strong memories of what it was to live under enemy rule and to be cut
off from the mainland in every sense of that phrase. My grandfather, who
was Rector of one of the parishes had one of the illegal wireless sets, so
they got some English news from time to time but of course, lived in fear
always, of being discovered. Unlike many who became very frugal with food,
my mother became a major 'over caterer' and swears it's because of their
near starvation during the Occupation. None of my family was, thank
heaven, interned but one of my mother's friends was the only British
survivor of Belsen and his sister died in Auschwitz. They were sent there
for harbouring a young Russian prisoner of war who had escaped. All this
ended only 60 or so years ago and it slips so quickly from public knowledge
and its dreadful implications are forgotten.

Sacha,

Very good to hear all this from you. Thanks.

I've read a couple of books in the last year about the occupation of the
Channel Islands. Some are much better than others. I have sensed a
need amongst Channel Islanders today to put a good face on it all. So
it's all very difficult to piece together. There are photographs for
example of begging letters from Jewish shopkeepers to the island
authorities who have requested them (as a result of Nazi pressure) to
shut up shop, there are photographs of soldiers holding a decapitated
animals (including cats!) up for the camera prior to cooking them, there
are sketches and photos too of the bleak camps the POWs were kept in
Germany. And, as you say, there are accounts of the hidden radio-sets
amongst the folk in Jersey and various attempts at sabotage and
outwitting the Nazis. And today there are exchange schemes between the
islands and the towns in Germany where the camps were, mostly for the
benefit of school-age youngsters I note. Both sides today are being
very jolly about it, being very proud of the positive gains they are
making as a result of "the reconciliation and healing process". And I
have sensed the last thing they want are people (like me) emerging out
of the woodwork all these years later to tell them of the catastrophic
effect it all had on unforgotten people's lives. My grandparents were
both 58 years old when they were transported off to the POW camp in
Germany to be incarcerated behind barbed wire for three years. I gather
that the young ones, the teenagers, who went with the adults managed it
all fairly well. Young people are so much more adaptable. I have
corresponded with a couple of old chaps who are still alive today and I
have got the impression they remember it all with a touch of relish. It
was all rather exciting for them, as boys. I expect that their parents
shielded them from concerns that they might never be released, that the
Nazis might not be beaten, that RAF bombers might accidentally bomb them
one night, and so forth. I find myself about to say, "It must have been
hell!" but because of what I discovered happened to my grandparents and
uncle once they were returned to the UK after their camp was liberated I
KNOW it was hell for them. People's lives wrecked forever after. They
weren't soldiers, they didn't lose limbs, but psychologically they were
wrecked.

Anyway . . .

Eddy.

Martin wrote:
And to repeat my point: because they do it, we SHOULD do it too? They
are our models? No further questions asked? No! "Keeping up with
other nations" is a large part of the reason why we have started upon
the approachto global catastrophe.
Rubbish

It may sound incredible to you, Martin, but I assure you it is not
nonsense. Take a while to look deeply at recent New Zealand, for
example. Go to:
http://www.lumiere.net.nz/reader/item/1161
http://filmshop.co.nz/dev/products-page/?product_id=22
http://www.cutcutcut.com
and follow links to read about (and buy!) the four documentaries
detailing how the attempts of successive NZ governments in the last
three decades to "keep up with other nations" has ripped the soul out of
NZ and caused the greatest demonstrations in NZ's major cities that have
ever been seen. See also
http://canterbury.cyberplace.org.nz/community/CAFCA/

Once you've got your head around the isolated NZ situation, you should
be able to see how it's going on everywhere else too.

Eddy.

On 14/1/08 20:51, in article ,
"Eddy" wrote:

Sacha wrote:
It sounds truly appalling and I am so sorry to hear that your family
suffered such tragedy. Mine, by comparison, came through it unscathed but
with strong memories of what it was to live under enemy rule and to be cut
off from the mainland in every sense of that phrase. My grandfather, who
was Rector of one of the parishes had one of the illegal wireless sets, so
they got some English news from time to time but of course, lived in fear
always, of being discovered. Unlike many who became very frugal with food,
my mother became a major 'over caterer' and swears it's because of their
near starvation during the Occupation. None of my family was, thank
heaven, interned but one of my mother's friends was the only British
survivor of Belsen and his sister died in Auschwitz. They were sent there
for harbouring a young Russian prisoner of war who had escaped. All this
ended only 60 or so years ago and it slips so quickly from public knowledge
and its dreadful implications are forgotten.

Sacha,

Very good to hear all this from you. Thanks.

I've read a couple of books in the last year about the occupation of the
Channel Islands. Some are much better than others. I have sensed a
need amongst Channel Islanders today to put a good face on it all. So
it's all very difficult to piece together.

There aren't that many around who remember it clearly. My mother is nearly
90 so hers is first-hand experience but she's in a dwindling minority. Most
who remember it now, remember it either as children themselves or from what
their parents told them. As in all history, the memories will become
diluted, distorted, faded over time.
If you haven't read it, I do recommend A Doctor's Occupation (De Gruchy's in
Jersey sell it as does the Société Jersiaise, I think or I'd be happy to
lend you a copy) I think it's valuable in that it gives a first-hand
accurate account by a professional who had to deal with the Germans, the
local authorities and the people of the island. His descriptions are vivid
and never sentimental. I imagine you know of the books on this site?
http://www.jerseyheritagetrust.org/edu/resources/
snip

When we celebrated 50 years of Liberation, I was my parish's committee
secretary and one of the things we did was to organise talks by people who
had experienced the Occupation and experienced it in different forms. Miss
Le Huquet, who was a young teacher at the parish school in the war, vowed
never to leave the parish boundaries during the Occupation and she never
did. Why that was her choice I don't know but it seemed as if she felt that
if the Germans were going to restrict her she'd impose tougher restrictions
on herself and survive them. She lived beyond 90 years of age. But 50 years
on she still spoke of "those Germans" as if she was uttering a swear word.
Some who talked to us were, as you describe, teenagers at the time or even
younger and to them deportation and internment was a great adventure. Some
were interned in beautiful places with plentiful food and only as adults
became aware that they'd survived rather better than islanders, though not,
of course, from choice!
One of the little ironies of the futility of war came my way in a story told
by my grandfather. Although of Jersey blood, he was born in Co. Durham and
had a slight Geordie accent all his life. One night, during the Occupation,
his blackout wasn't secure and a German soldier knocked on the door to tell
him to fix it. They exchanged a few polite words and before the soldier
moved off he asked my grandfather how he came to have a Geordie accent.
Grandpa explained and asked the soldier how he, a German, recognised it.
The soldier said that before the war he'd been a waiter working in a
restaurant in Newcastle on Tyne.....
And now perhaps after this, we'd better stop, do you think? The email offer
remains open!
--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(remove weeds from address)
'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
children.'

On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 07:21:07 -0000, "'Mike'"
wrote:




"Fuschia" wrote in message
.. .

I am very much in favour of Remembrance for the fallen.
However it seems to me from the commercial support for the petition
that this is being used as an excuse, a label, for just another public
holiday. It will be used as an excuse for various commercial,
consumer-oriented activities that have nothing to do with Remembrance.

Christmas and Easter are bank holidays because they are religious
festivals, but only a minority use them to go to church. The majority
use them as an opportunity for parties. If we have a Remembrance day
off work, I believe the majority will also use that for parties. Is
that what we want?



Well said. That is why I will not sign the petition

Mike

I am old enough to remember Armistice Day observance in the late 1930s
and early 40s because my father had been wounded in the first world
war and felt deeply about Armistice Day.
It always happened on 11 Nov at 11 am and that fixed time was its
great strength. It was the way that virtually everything stopped for
those two minutes which made a huge impression - there were parades
and services but it was the almost universal observance of the 2
minutes silence no matter what was otherwise happening that mattered
most. Shops stopped, cars stopped, even buses, but not trains
although a station departure would be delayed.
Turn that into a day off and nobody will observe that crucial two
minutes silence.
Just to touch on another part of this thread, the Remembrance Day
service at the war memorial in my small town has been attended by
increasing numbers in recent years and all ages are present.

Guy Gorton

Guy Gorton wrote:
On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 07:21:07 -0000, "'Mike'"
wrote:




"Fuschia" wrote in message
...

I am very much in favour of Remembrance for the fallen.
However it seems to me from the commercial support for the petition
that this is being used as an excuse, a label, for just another
public holiday. It will be used as an excuse for various commercial,
consumer-oriented activities that have nothing to do with
Remembrance.

Christmas and Easter are bank holidays because they are religious
festivals, but only a minority use them to go to church. The
majority use them as an opportunity for parties. If we have a
Remembrance day off work, I believe the majority will also use that
for parties. Is that what we want?



Well said. That is why I will not sign the petition

Mike

I am old enough to remember Armistice Day observance in the late 1930s
and early 40s because my father had been wounded in the first world
war and felt deeply about Armistice Day.
It always happened on 11 Nov at 11 am and that fixed time was its
great strength. It was the way that virtually everything stopped for
those two minutes which made a huge impression - there were parades
and services but it was the almost universal observance of the 2
minutes silence no matter what was otherwise happening that mattered
most. Shops stopped, cars stopped, even buses, but not trains
although a station departure would be delayed.
Turn that into a day off and nobody will observe that crucial two
minutes silence.
Just to touch on another part of this thread, the Remembrance Day
service at the war memorial in my small town has been attended by
increasing numbers in recent years and all ages are present.

My eyes were opened by reading this book:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Soldier-Neil.../dp/038560453X

The section on national grief and rememberance in the 20's/30's humbled me.

The section on national grief and rememberance in the 20's/30's humbled
me.


Possibly because of this?

(Part of one of my lectures)


..July 1st 1916
..First day of the Battle of the Somme.
..57,470 casualties.
..19,240 dead.

..'Just pour more men in'
..885,138 Military Deaths in WW1(All Services)

Kind regard

Mike

--
www.rneba.org.uk. The Royal Naval Electrical Branch Association.
'THE' Association to find your ex-Greenie mess mates.
www.iowtours.com for all ex-Service Reunions. More being added regularly

'Mike' wrote:
The section on national grief and rememberance in the 20's/30's
humbled me.


Possibly because of this?

(Part of one of my lectures)


.July 1st 1916
.First day of the Battle of the Somme.
.57,470 casualties.
.19,240 dead.

.'Just pour more men in'
.885,138 Military Deaths in WW1(All Services)

Kind regard

Mike

I had a pretty good grasp of the battlefield casualties - what was humbling
was the concept of national remembrance and the idea of the unknown
soldier....

Tens of thousands of Mothers queuing for hours on end to pass the Tomb of
the Unknown Soldier as it 'could be' their son, families visiting the
battlefields for many years attempting to discover where their
Son/Brother/Father may have been buried, the temporary plaster Cenotaph
being replaced by stone as it became an unexpected focus of remembrance for
years past it's due. And so on....

As I say, a book I'd wholeheartedly recommend.

On 15/1/08 11:20, in article , "cupra"
wrote:

snip
Tens of thousands of Mothers queuing for hours on end to pass the Tomb of
the Unknown Soldier as it 'could be' their son, families visiting the
battlefields for many years attempting to discover where their
Son/Brother/Father may have been buried, the temporary plaster Cenotaph
being replaced by stone as it became an unexpected focus of remembrance for
years past it's due. And so on....

As I say, a book I'd wholeheartedly recommend.



It's profoundly moving to visit the war cemeteries in Normandy. That should
be part of every child's education. We didn't see one headstone which gave
an age older than 36 and mNY were 18 or so. The American one was vast
because all were buried together but the British tended to be buried in the
churchyards nearest to where they had fallen, so the military cemetery in
Caen is nowhere as large as the US one. But the first time I visited the US
one, I was taken also to the very sombre German cemetery. What struck me
very much was that at the US cemetery, there had been dozens of visitors and
in the German one, I saw a solitary figure weeping bitterly over a grave.
My hosts told me that the Germans had let the cemetery go to such a point
that local farmers were grazing cows in it and cutting hay. The British War
Graves Commission encouraged the Germans to clean it up and maintain it, on
the grounds that even if defeated, their men had given their lives, too.
Now it is immaculate and when I saw it there was a fairly newly planted
avenue of trees leading up to it.
--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(remove weeds from address)
'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
children.'

Sacha wrote:
On 15/1/08 11:20, in article ,
"cupra" wrote:

snip
Tens of thousands of Mothers queuing for hours on end to pass the
Tomb of the Unknown Soldier as it 'could be' their son, families
visiting the battlefields for many years attempting to discover
where their Son/Brother/Father may have been buried, the temporary
plaster Cenotaph being replaced by stone as it became an unexpected
focus of remembrance for years past it's due. And so on....

As I say, a book I'd wholeheartedly recommend.



It's profoundly moving to visit the war cemeteries in Normandy. That
should be part of every child's education.

Absolutely - a visit to the WW1 graves too (something I plan to do soon).

We didn't see one
headstone which gave an age older than 36 and mNY were 18 or so. The
American one was vast because all were buried together but the
British tended to be buried in the churchyards nearest to where they
had fallen, so the military cemetery in Caen is nowhere as large as
the US one. But the first time I visited the US one, I was taken
also to the very sombre German cemetery. What struck me very much
was that at the US cemetery, there had been dozens of visitors and in
the German one, I saw a solitary figure weeping bitterly over a
grave. My hosts told me that the Germans had let the cemetery go to
such a point that local farmers were grazing cows in it and cutting
hay. The British War Graves Commission encouraged the Germans to
clean it up and maintain it, on the grounds that even if defeated,
their men had given their lives, too. Now it is immaculate and when I
saw it there was a fairly newly planted avenue of trees leading up to
it.

" cupra" wrote in message
...
Sacha wrote:
On 15/1/08 11:20, in article ,
"cupra" wrote:

snip
Tens of thousands of Mothers queuing for hours on end to pass the
Tomb of the Unknown Soldier as it 'could be' their son, families
visiting the battlefields for many years attempting to discover
where their Son/Brother/Father may have been buried, the temporary
plaster Cenotaph being replaced by stone as it became an unexpected
focus of remembrance for years past it's due. And so on....

As I say, a book I'd wholeheartedly recommend.



It's profoundly moving to visit the war cemeteries in Normandy. That
should be part of every child's education.

Absolutely - a visit to the WW1 graves too (something I plan to do soon).

We didn't see one
headstone which gave an age older than 36 and mNY were 18 or so. The
American one was vast because all were buried together but the
British tended to be buried in the churchyards nearest to where they
had fallen, so the military cemetery in Caen is nowhere as large as
the US one. But the first time I visited the US one, I was taken
also to the very sombre German cemetery. What struck me very much
was that at the US cemetery, there had been dozens of visitors and in
the German one, I saw a solitary figure weeping bitterly over a
grave. My hosts told me that the Germans had let the cemetery go to
such a point that local farmers were grazing cows in it and cutting
hay. The British War Graves Commission encouraged the Germans to
clean it up and maintain it, on the grounds that even if defeated,
their men had given their lives, too. Now it is immaculate and when I
saw it there was a fairly newly planted avenue of trees leading up to
it.

As, I'm here asking about Japonicas, I thought you might be interested in a
war memorial that moved me.

I wen't home and wrote about it
http://www.go-self-sufficient.com/lestweforget.htm

Regards
Pat Gardiner

Pat Gardiner wrote:
" cupra" wrote in message
...
Sacha wrote:
On 15/1/08 11:20, in article ,
"cupra" wrote:

snip
Tens of thousands of Mothers queuing for hours on end to pass the
Tomb of the Unknown Soldier as it 'could be' their son, families
visiting the battlefields for many years attempting to discover
where their Son/Brother/Father may have been buried, the temporary
plaster Cenotaph being replaced by stone as it became an unexpected
focus of remembrance for years past it's due. And so on....

As I say, a book I'd wholeheartedly recommend.



It's profoundly moving to visit the war cemeteries in Normandy. That
should be part of every child's education.

Absolutely - a visit to the WW1 graves too (something I plan to do
soon).
We didn't see one
headstone which gave an age older than 36 and mNY were 18 or so. The
American one was vast because all were buried together but the
British tended to be buried in the churchyards nearest to where they
had fallen, so the military cemetery in Caen is nowhere as large as
the US one. But the first time I visited the US one, I was taken
also to the very sombre German cemetery. What struck me very much
was that at the US cemetery, there had been dozens of visitors and
in the German one, I saw a solitary figure weeping bitterly over a
grave. My hosts told me that the Germans had let the cemetery go to
such a point that local farmers were grazing cows in it and cutting
hay. The British War Graves Commission encouraged the Germans to
clean it up and maintain it, on the grounds that even if defeated,
their men had given their lives, too. Now it is immaculate and when
I saw it there was a fairly newly planted avenue of trees leading
up to it.

As, I'm here asking about Japonicas, I thought you might be
interested in a war memorial that moved me.

I wen't home and wrote about it
http://www.go-self-sufficient.com/lestweforget.htm

Regards
Pat Gardiner

Thanks Pat - I'd like to think such memorials will be tended for many years
to come....