http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/remembermonday/

Just in case you haven't seen it.

--
Regards
Bob Hobden

On 12/1/08 12:14, in article , "Bob
Hobden" wrote:

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/remembermonday/

Just in case you haven't seen it.

Done, thanks Bob. I also signed up to the petition on the EU referendum!
--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(remove weeds from address)
'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
children.'

On 12/1/08 13:26, in article ,
"Martin" wrote:

On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 12:42:20 +0000, Sacha
wrote:

On 12/1/08 12:14, in article , "Bob
Hobden" wrote:

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/remembermonday/

Just in case you haven't seen it.

Done, thanks Bob. I also signed up to the petition on the EU referendum!

Having once had an obligatory Tout-Saints holiday at the beginning of
November,
I doubt if people will welcome a day off in the middle of November.

Well, first of all, it's not about them just having a day off, it's about
the war dead. And secondly, if it was, it would be a welcome long week end
between August Bank Holiday and Christmas. Thomas Cook the travel agents
and others, are pushing the govt. for another BH, saying UK falls woefully
behind most of Europe in that regard.

--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(remove weeds from address)
'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
children.'

Hi Bob,

This is off-topic but as other replies appear to have been allowed I
would like to add my view.

I see that the objectives at the petition-site are "to create a new
public holiday, the National Remembrance Holiday, to commemorate The
Fallen and our Nation, with the holiday falling on the second Monday in
November each year, the day after Remembrance Sunday".

I totally agree with the objective "to commemorate The Fallen and our
Nation". However, I don't believe that we do that adequately at present
and I don't believe that creating a holiday a day AFTER Remembrance
Sunday would encourage us to do it any more decently.

I used to be a teacher at a good number of schools (primary and
secondary) and universities, until a few years ago and I was, and am
still, appalled at how most young people have little knowledge of and
regard for the extraordinary sacrifice that was made for the freedom
from Nazi domination which we all enjoy today. (Let's not forget the
Nazis dominated Europe and got as far as invading and occupying our
Channel Islands and it is a miracle we managed to beat them back!)

But, of course, it is not just young people who disregard the efforts of
those who fought. Large numbers of middle-aged people, those of us in
our 50s and 60s, who were born shortly after the war, also show scant
regard for the heroes of both world wars. For proof, simply keep an eye
on any cenotaph round the country on Remembrance Sunday! The crowds
which gather are SHAMEFULLY small. I know young people who regard those
folks standing round cenotaphs in silence on Remembrance Sunday mornings
as a load of old nutters.

So the challenge is "how to get the nation to actively observe the
commemorations of Remembrance Sunday". If the nation can manage to get
out of bed and genuinely do that for ten years on the trot, THEN I would
say a new public holiday could then be linked to Remembrance Sunday.

Whether we should have or deserve an extra day off work is a separate
matter. To me it seems the UK seems to be binging itself silly without
any need for an extra holiday.

Eddy.

On 12 Jan, 13:38, Martin wrote:
We got our Tout-Saints holiday changed to the Friday before Whit so that we had
a long weekend.

Shouldn't this be Tous Saints meaning 'all the saints' which is a day
of remembrance for all the saints which is the 1st of November and on
which most of Europe is on Holiday? If this is the same day in the
Netherland, then it's been a holiday for as long as I remember in
Europe.

France has divided the country for holiday times so that not all of
France is on holidays at the same time. Which means for some of my
relatives Easter holiday will fall at the end of April beginning of
May, and the kids will be in school in March, on good Friday. It's
madness ...

On 12/1/08 14:13, in article , "Eddy"
wrote:

snip
But, of course, it is not just young people who disregard the efforts of
those who fought. Large numbers of middle-aged people, those of us in
our 50s and 60s, who were born shortly after the war, also show scant
regard for the heroes of both world wars. For proof, simply keep an eye
on any cenotaph round the country on Remembrance Sunday! The crowds
which gather are SHAMEFULLY small. I know young people who regard those
folks standing round cenotaphs in silence on Remembrance Sunday mornings
as a load of old nutters.

So the challenge is "how to get the nation to actively observe the
commemorations of Remembrance Sunday". If the nation can manage to get
out of bed and genuinely do that for ten years on the trot, THEN I would
say a new public holiday could then be linked to Remembrance Sunday.


I wonder if this suggestion has been made because strenuous efforts to make
11th November a public holiday *whatever* day of the weeks it falls on, have
always failed. It seems to me that other countries and I note this most
particularly in France, are very mindful of their war dead and mark
important dates. I think I'm correct in saying that May 8th is a Bank
Holiday in France and May 8th and 9th are Bank Holidays in Guernsey and
Jersey respectively.

--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(remove weeds from address)
'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
children.'

On 12 Jan, 14:13, Eddy
wrote:
I totally agree with the objective "to commemorate The Fallen and our
Nation". *However, I don't believe that we do that adequately at present

(reluctant snip)

I agree with you entirely. I am younger than 50, but approaching it
fast. I grew up with my grand parents and therefore know about the 1st
and 2nd wars as if I had been there myself and coming from the south
west of France, I have lived with daily reminders of the conflicts. My
grand dad and 2 uncles were in the maquis. I have been surprised to
see my own children taking absolutely no interest, but then again
without me talking about it they wouldn't have known anything about
it, beside perhaps via books like Anne Frank and a handful of films,
if they're in colour!

I have recently realised that it isn't their fault. It is ours. We do
not go about it the right way. I have read an interesting article from
Resurgence No 246, which says that we are entering a 'social movement'
where even if so much is going wrong in our world, so much is also
going right. It says that a viable future isn't possible until the
past is faced objectively and communion is made with our errant
history ... ' we are the transgressors and we are the forgivers ... we
means all of us, everyone. What is the most harmful resides within us,
the accumulated wounds of the past, the sorrow, shame, deceit and
ignomity shared by every culture passed down to every person as surely
as DNA, a history of violence and greed'.

I've shared this with my kids and they took it so much more easily
than the facts of the two first world wars. I think they understood
this better because it's within an environmental shift, climate
change, an awareness of how critical social injustice is, which is the
actual wars they are experiencing, and they beleive in forgiveness.
Clearly the past wars are irrelevant to them - they are interested in
the future, in technology, in environmental science and social justice.

On 12/1/08 15:12, in article ,
"Martin" wrote:

snip

France 2008
snip

We don't come off too well!
--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(remove weeds from address)
'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
children.'

Bob Hobden wrote:
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/remembermonday/

Just in case you haven't seen it.

I am not making a judgement on this petition, just a generalisation on
the whole principle. How would you feel about going to the poles and
only being able to vote for party X? Why, when a petition is opened is
there not one of the exact opposite, so that the feeling of those
against can be judged as well? For example I believe there was one to
bring back hunting, fine, but why not, at the same time, one to keep the
hunting ban? I should say that I have voted on these petitions, and am
also pro hunting. Ducks (head, not pro hunting ducks). :-)

On 12/1/08 16:05, in article , "Broadback"
wrote:

Bob Hobden wrote:
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/remembermonday/

Just in case you haven't seen it.

I am not making a judgement on this petition, just a generalisation on
the whole principle. How would you feel about going to the poles and
only being able to vote for party X? Why, when a petition is opened is
there not one of the exact opposite, so that the feeling of those
against can be judged as well? For example I believe there was one to
bring back hunting, fine, but why not, at the same time, one to keep the
hunting ban? I should say that I have voted on these petitions, and am
also pro hunting. Ducks (head, not pro hunting ducks). :-)

It's up to individuals to start these email petitions, so anyone can do just
as you suggest.
If you look at the list of petitions currently on that site, you will see
that someone has started one anti the Trump development of a golf course in
Scotland and another person has started one pro that development.
The petitions on that site aren't controlled or started by the government.
You could start one asking support for e.g. Lawn mowing to be allowed only
on Sundays between 11am and 4pm and I could start one asking for lawn mowing
to be banned during those hours. ;-))
--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(remove weeds from address)
'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
children.'

"Eddy" wrote ((SNIP))
This is off-topic but as other replies appear to have been allowed I
would like to add my view.

That is why I put OT in the subject line. However poppies are flowers (or
weeds). :-)

I used to be a teacher at a good number of schools (primary and
secondary) and universities, until a few years ago and I was, and am
still, appalled at how most young people have little knowledge of and
regard for the extraordinary sacrifice that was made for the freedom
from Nazi domination which we all enjoy today. (Let's not forget the
Nazis dominated Europe and got as far as invading and occupying our
Channel Islands and it is a miracle we managed to beat them back!)


You berate the young and middle aged for not understanding about Remembrance
Day and yet also tell us you were a Teacher for years.

Whatever subject is taught there must be a way to introduce it into
lessons....maths... what percentage chance did young men have of dieing or
being injured etc?... chemistry...constituents and effect of mustard gas ;
English... plenty of poems etc..; Biology... the cause and effect of
Gangrene and/or Trench Foot. (not least the smell): .....

If the kids do their family tree only a few generations back most will find
some effect of either/both wars which will help make it personal especially
if they can find the persons War Records at Kew.

Hopefully if we get a day off someone in authority, someone who is non-PC
perhaps, might also suggest the kids are taught why it's a holiday and what
they owe to those that gave the ultimate sacrifice. Used to happen in the
Cubs/Scouts or similar but how many kids join them now.

Whilst on this subject may I suggest this Blog to everyone..
http://www.wwar1.blogspot.com/
It's got me hooked.
--
Regards
Bob Hobden

On 12/1/08 17:17, in article , "Bob
Hobden" wrote:


"Eddy" wrote ((SNIP))
This is off-topic but as other replies appear to have been allowed I
would like to add my view.

That is why I put OT in the subject line. However poppies are flowers (or
weeds). :-)

I used to be a teacher at a good number of schools (primary and
secondary) and universities, until a few years ago and I was, and am
still, appalled at how most young people have little knowledge of and
regard for the extraordinary sacrifice that was made for the freedom
from Nazi domination which we all enjoy today. (Let's not forget the
Nazis dominated Europe and got as far as invading and occupying our
Channel Islands and it is a miracle we managed to beat them back!)


You berate the young and middle aged for not understanding about Remembrance
Day and yet also tell us you were a Teacher for years.

snip


I suppose, to be fair, that teachers have to follow a curriculum. Are they
allowed - or were they - to go off onto their own chosen path of interest?
That's a genuine question - I know they have to toe a party line now but I
don't know if someone who has been teaching for 60 years would have been
able to choose topics about which they, personally, were passionate.
But I'm in accord with you, Bob, about the teaching, or lack of it, that
children get now with regard to history. If you don't learn from history,
you learn nothing and IMO, every single child in every single country in the
world should be taken to see the sites of war graves or e.g. Auschwitz so
that they learn what man can do to man if *they* don't put a stop to it in
each successive generation.
Eddy mentions the Channel Islands where my parents, grandparents, aunts and
uncles, were living under Nazi rule. They - and we - are lucky that rule
didn't prevail because from them I learned enough about how bad it was while
it lasted.
In our Parish magazine there was a short piece about young people in the sea
cadets collecting money during the Poppy Appeal in Totnes. Some equally
young drop out type came up to one young girl and told her she was
supporting 'murdering scum'. I do so wish I'd been there. I wonder if he
realises what would have happened to him if he'd said that to someone
collecting money for the Nazi party, from which fate he was saved by what
his ignorance describes as 'murdering scum'.


--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(remove weeds from address)
'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
children.'

On 12 Jan, 17:17, "Bob Hobden" wrote:
Whatever subject is taught there must be a way to introduce it into
lessons....maths... what percentage chance did young men have of dieing or
being injured etc?... chemistry...constituents and effect of mustard gas ;
English... plenty of poems etc..; Biology... the cause and effect of
Gangrene and/or Trench Foot. (not least the smell): .....

This reminded me of something I saw recently - a parent bringing their
kids to the cemetery to do math. They would look at tomb stones and
find the ages of the people there. This is something I used to do on
those long trips to 4 different cimeteries in my youth on 1st Nov )

On 12/1/08 18:29, in article ,
"Martin" wrote:

On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 18:14:50 +0000, Sacha
wrote:

On 12/1/08 17:17, in article , "Bob
Hobden" wrote:


"Eddy" wrote ((SNIP))
This is off-topic but as other replies appear to have been allowed I
would like to add my view.

That is why I put OT in the subject line. However poppies are flowers (or
weeds). :-)

I used to be a teacher at a good number of schools (primary and
secondary) and universities, until a few years ago and I was, and am
still, appalled at how most young people have little knowledge of and
regard for the extraordinary sacrifice that was made for the freedom
from Nazi domination which we all enjoy today. (Let's not forget the
Nazis dominated Europe and got as far as invading and occupying our
Channel Islands and it is a miracle we managed to beat them back!)


You berate the young and middle aged for not understanding about Remembrance
Day and yet also tell us you were a Teacher for years.

snip


I suppose, to be fair, that teachers have to follow a curriculum. Are they
allowed - or were they - to go off onto their own chosen path of interest?
That's a genuine question - I know they have to toe a party line now but I
don't know if someone who has been teaching for 60 years would have been
able to choose topics about which they, personally, were passionate.
But I'm in accord with you, Bob, about the teaching, or lack of it, that
children get now with regard to history.

Schools don;t teach recent history " because it is open to different
interpretations"

50 odd years ago I did O level History 1815-1914

My kids did a bit more, but not WWII and later.

The result is that one used to spend half ones life filling in the gaps. TV
Channels like Discovery make it easier to catch up on wars.

If you don't learn from history,
you learn nothing and IMO, every single child in every single country in the
world should be taken to see the sites of war graves or e.g. Auschwitz so
that they learn what man can do to man if *they* don't put a stop to it in
each successive generation.

Maybe some of those nearer home - The Somme, Normandy, Arnhem ...?

Certainly but those aren't 'nearer home' for every child - and I do, most
truly, mean every child. One of the most moving things I've ever done was
visit the battle fields of Normandy and both the US and German cemeteries
there, closely followed by the memorial at Pearl Harbour.
But until all children, worldwide, learn that war means bullets or bombs and
certain death for thousands, war will not stop. I think it's probably not
in human nature not to fight, actually but I do think that some historical
knowledge might at the very least, stop people fighting over trivial things
in terms of human existence.


--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(remove weeds from address)
'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
children.'

In article ,
Martin writes:
|
| Schools don;t teach recent history " because it is open to different
| interpretations"

That is not true. Both of my daughters did the second world war,
including references to the Holocaust.

There is also the distasteful fact that, for the past quarter of
a century, Remembrance Sunday has been used by politicians as an
opportunity for jingoism and as a way of claiming that they care
about dead and crippled troops without actually doing anything for
them. The original offender was, of course, you-know-who.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.