Can I have views, please, on how to be as successful as possible in
replacing a lawn with a herbaceous garden WITHOUT removing ALL the turf
first! ? :-)

The lawn in question is over a soakaway network and I have been advised
that to remove the turf (either by machine or by slicing it out) might
be to damage the soakaway system underneath.

So, having gathered together a good list of shallow-rooted herbaceous
perennials to "replace" the damnably fast-growing lawn (fed ceaselessly
by all those septic-tank nutrients beneath!) I am wondering how best to
get the plants in.

If I simply dig out holes sufficient to take the average "plugs" of the
average 5-inch diameter potted plants, AND if I monitor those plants and
keep pulling away invading grass for the first year or so, will those
plants eventually get the upper-hand? As they grow, are they likely to
cause the grass to recede, die off? Will they establish themselves?

What do you think?

Eddy.

In article ,
says...
Can I have views, please, on how to be as successful as possible in
replacing a lawn with a herbaceous garden WITHOUT removing ALL the turf
first! ? :-)

The lawn in question is over a soakaway network and I have been advised
that to remove the turf (either by machine or by slicing it out) might
be to damage the soakaway system underneath.

So, having gathered together a good list of shallow-rooted herbaceous
perennials to "replace" the damnably fast-growing lawn (fed ceaselessly
by all those septic-tank nutrients beneath!) I am wondering how best to
get the plants in.

If I simply dig out holes sufficient to take the average "plugs" of the
average 5-inch diameter potted plants, AND if I monitor those plants and
keep pulling away invading grass for the first year or so, will those
plants eventually get the upper-hand? As they grow, are they likely to
cause the grass to recede, die off? Will they establish themselves?

What do you think?

Eddy.


Either use a roundup type weed killer with a sprinkle bar (having drawn
the required outline) or cover the whole area in woven membrane and
plant through it (this can be a pain later), either way mulch with
something after planting. it will be a lot less work long term if you
give yourself a proper edge other wise the grass will re colonize from
the edges.
--
Charlie Pridham, Gardening in Cornwall
www.roselandhouse.co.uk
Holders of national collections of Clematis viticella cultivars and
Lapageria rosea

In article ,
Eddy writes:
|
| Can I have views, please, on how to be as successful as possible in
| replacing a lawn with a herbaceous garden WITHOUT removing ALL the turf
| first! ? :-)
|
| The lawn in question is over a soakaway network and I have been advised
| that to remove the turf (either by machine or by slicing it out) might
| be to damage the soakaway system underneath.

Implausible. You need remove only 1-2", and no realistic soakaway is
that close to the surface.

You will need to dig much deeper to plant herbaceous plants - an
abolute minimum is 4-6" and 9-12" is more realistic. Doing that
might disturb the soakaway but, with care, shouldn't damage it.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On 12 Jan, 14:33, Charlie Pridham wrote:
Either use a roundup type weed killer with a sprinkle bar (having drawn
the required outline) or cover the whole area in woven membrane and
plant through it (this can be a pain later), either way mulch with
something after planting. it will be a lot less work long term if you
give yourself a proper edge other wise the grass will re colonize from
the edges.

Eddy could also cover the area required with newspapers, soak them
well and cover the papers with soil. Eventually this smother the grass
and turf. Some will poke through but he can hand pick them easily. The
soil added on top should be of good quality which would later benefit
the plants planted in the bed, giving it a good start.

If I read the building regs correctly then pipes etc must be a minimum of 0.4 of a metre (1foot 4 inches) below the surface in a garden

Nick Maclaren wrote:
Implausible. You need remove only 1-2", and no realistic soakaway is
that close to the surface.

You will need to dig much deeper to plant herbaceous plants - an
abolute minimum is 4-6" and 9-12" is more realistic. Doing that
might disturb the soakaway but, with care, shouldn't damage it.

Thanks, Nick. Removing just 1 to 2 inches doesn't sound too drastic,
although it's quite a big lawn so it would be quite a task. The ground
here in South West Shropshire is what locals call "ratchety", i.e. full
of bits of natural slate. This hillside is like a pile of stones which
earth has managed to penetrate!

Eddy.

Granity wrote:
If I read the building regs correctly then pipes etc must be a minimum
of 0.4 of a metre (1foot 4 inches) below the surface in a garden

Hmmm. Well, that's very good news. On the other hand, our surveyor
indicated that not all building regs were observed by previous owners of
this property.

I'm beginning to see there's going to have to be a bit of risk-taking in
this matter, on my part!

Eddy.

Charlie Pridham wrote:
Either use a roundup type weed killer with a sprinkle bar (having drawn
the required outline) or cover the whole area in woven membrane and
plant through it (this can be a pain later), either way mulch with
something after planting. it will be a lot less work long term if you
give yourself a proper edge other wise the grass will re colonize from
the edges.

Charlie, do you suggest a "woven membrane" because it will breathe
adequately, i.e. it will not reduce the effectiveness of the soakaway
below?

And thanks for confirming grass is very good at re-colonizing.

Eddy.

wrote:
Eddy could also cover the area required with newspapers, soak them
well and cover the papers with soil. Eventually this smother the grass
and turf. Some will poke through but he can hand pick them easily. The
soil added on top should be of good quality which would later benefit
the plants planted in the bed, giving it a good start.

Helene, this sounds like a good way to go, rather than spend hours
slicing off the top two inches - because if I did remove the top two
inches I'ld feel it necessary to replace them with topsoil. So why
bother? As you suggest, just smother the grass naturally, and add
topsoil on top.

And then suddenly, after thinking I'ld exhausted the business of what
may be safely plant in a soakaway, comes a very strong suggestion from a
gardener in Canada who tells me the easiest and best solution would be
established rhododendrons!

Now, rhododendrons was my first thought, before I asked for help in this
forum! West Wales is full of them. Generally purple-flowered. Some
Welsh residents hate them, saying they are not native and they disallow
anything else from growing beneath them. But that wouldn't worry me.
A 6-foot high "wood" of rhododedrons below this house would look
terrific and I know the cats would love to scamper beneath them! As
for soil-type: I have tested the Ph of the ground here at it's acid, and
being not too far from the Welsh border we get plenty of rain!

This Canadian gardener says "rhodies" are shallow-rooted and that their
roots form "a saucer shape". If we planted established rhodies the
whole problem of eternally mowing this luxuriant lawn-upon-soakaway
would be instantly solved.

Can people confirm that rhodies are indeed shallow-rooted?

Many many thanks!

Eddy.

In article ,
says...
Charlie Pridham wrote:
Either use a roundup type weed killer with a sprinkle bar (having drawn
the required outline) or cover the whole area in woven membrane and
plant through it (this can be a pain later), either way mulch with
something after planting. it will be a lot less work long term if you
give yourself a proper edge other wise the grass will re colonize from
the edges.

Charlie, do you suggest a "woven membrane" because it will breathe
adequately, i.e. it will not reduce the effectiveness of the soakaway
below?

And thanks for confirming grass is very good at re-colonizing.

Eddy.



No, woven is to allow water and air through (some people make the mistake
of using black polythene, which although it would kill the grass would
also "Kill" the soil and stop it working) and I think Helen suggested wet
newspaper which if overlaid with mulch so you can not see it allso works
very well.
If it was me I would make a raised edge all the way around and fill to a
depth of about 4 inches with soil/compost having weedkillered the
grass, and plant into that, then you will know in future that it is quite
safe to cultivate the surface, as with perennials you will need to do
every few years or it will become run down and tired looking. A lot more
work in the short term but a lot less long term as it will be easier to
maintain
--
Charlie Pridham, Gardening in Cornwall
www.roselandhouse.co.uk
Holders of national collections of Clematis viticella cultivars and
Lapageria rosea

In article ,
says...
wrote:
Eddy could also cover the area required with newspapers, soak them
well and cover the papers with soil. Eventually this smother the grass
and turf. Some will poke through but he can hand pick them easily. The
soil added on top should be of good quality which would later benefit
the plants planted in the bed, giving it a good start.

Helene, this sounds like a good way to go, rather than spend hours
slicing off the top two inches - because if I did remove the top two
inches I'ld feel it necessary to replace them with topsoil. So why
bother? As you suggest, just smother the grass naturally, and add
topsoil on top.

And then suddenly, after thinking I'ld exhausted the business of what
may be safely plant in a soakaway, comes a very strong suggestion from a
gardener in Canada who tells me the easiest and best solution would be
established rhododendrons!

Now, rhododendrons was my first thought, before I asked for help in this
forum! West Wales is full of them. Generally purple-flowered. Some
Welsh residents hate them, saying they are not native and they disallow
anything else from growing beneath them. But that wouldn't worry me.
A 6-foot high "wood" of rhododedrons below this house would look
terrific and I know the cats would love to scamper beneath them! As
for soil-type: I have tested the Ph of the ground here at it's acid, and
being not too far from the Welsh border we get plenty of rain!

This Canadian gardener says "rhodies" are shallow-rooted and that their
roots form "a saucer shape". If we planted established rhodies the
whole problem of eternally mowing this luxuriant lawn-upon-soakaway
would be instantly solved.

Can people confirm that rhodies are indeed shallow-rooted?

Many many thanks!

Eddy.


Yes they are shallow rooted. I can not remember now why you went off the
idea!
--
Charlie Pridham, Gardening in Cornwall
www.roselandhouse.co.uk
Holders of national collections of Clematis viticella cultivars and
Lapageria rosea

In article ,
Eddy writes:
|
| Thanks, Nick. Removing just 1 to 2 inches doesn't sound too drastic,
| although it's quite a big lawn so it would be quite a task. The ground
| here in South West Shropshire is what locals call "ratchety", i.e. full
| of bits of natural slate. This hillside is like a pile of stones which
| earth has managed to penetrate!

But it's pointless, anyway - grass is very sensitive to glyphosate,
and is killed by a single application. MUCH easier.

| Hmmm. Well, that's very good news. On the other hand, our surveyor
| indicated that not all building regs were observed by previous owners of
| this property.

Surprise, surprise!

| And then suddenly, after thinking I'ld exhausted the business of what
| may be safely plant in a soakaway, comes a very strong suggestion from a
| gardener in Canada who tells me the easiest and best solution would be
| established rhododendrons!
|
| This Canadian gardener says "rhodies" are shallow-rooted and that their
| roots form "a saucer shape". If we planted established rhodies the
| whole problem of eternally mowing this luxuriant lawn-upon-soakaway
| would be instantly solved.

Well, somewhat, but watch out. Many or most of the evergreen ones get
big, quite rapidly, in suitable conditions. How big? 30' high and stems
9" across, with roots going down well over a foot. You would be WELL
advised to use only ones that are guaranteed to stay small.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Nick Maclaren wrote:
But it's pointless, anyway - grass is very sensitive to glyphosate,
and is killed by a single application. MUCH easier.

Thanks. I can see that being true. And Glyphosate doesn't lower the
quality of the soil for the plants that I'll then put in, presumably
after a certain waiting time? How long after?

Well, somewhat, but watch out. Many or most of the evergreen ones get
big, quite rapidly, in suitable conditions. How big? 30' high and stems
9" across, with roots going down well over a foot. You would be WELL
advised to use only ones that are guaranteed to stay small.

And thanks for this too. I'm constantly amazed at how the human mind
cannot conceive of all factors at the one time. (We really do need
computers!) You're absolutely right. The splendid rhododendrons we
had in West Wales were only about 9 feet high but they had trunks it
would take you two hands to get around, say, 5 inches diameter. So,
yes, it's difficult to believe a trunk that thick would not have roots
that would resist descending further than a foot below the surface!

Maybe I could try the bonsai option? Embed four or five 1 foot strong
ceramic tubs in the soakaway, just so that the rims aren't showing, and
plants rhodies in them. That way the area might just become
successfully bushed while the roots would be contained?

What do you think?

Eddy.

Charlie Pridham wrote:
Yes they are shallow rooted. I can not remember now why you went off the
idea!

Charlie, thanks for the confirmation. I'm getting excited. A mass of
rhododendrons below this house would be PERFECT. It was our original
thought before buying, but then, once we'd moved in, we discovered the
septic tank soakaway was laid right through our front lawn and
subconsciously we accepted that rhododendron "trees" would have root
systems that equated to their thick strong trunks.

Now, you can see above, that someone else has reminded me of the
unlikelihood of rhodies with 5"-diameter trunks not having root systems
that penetrate only within the top six inches or so. So I guess it
comes down to people's definitions of "shallow-rooted". For our
purposes, because of the soakaway, I think I now need to do some serious
googling to find out if the "shallow roots" of a mature rhododendron
penetrate near or beyond the 1-foot level.

Eddy.

On 13/1/08 12:07, in article , "Eddy"
wrote:

Charlie Pridham wrote:
Yes they are shallow rooted. I can not remember now why you went off the
idea!

Charlie, thanks for the confirmation. I'm getting excited. A mass of
rhododendrons below this house would be PERFECT. It was our original
thought before buying, but then, once we'd moved in, we discovered the
septic tank soakaway was laid right through our front lawn and
subconsciously we accepted that rhododendron "trees" would have root
systems that equated to their thick strong trunks.

Now, you can see above, that someone else has reminded me of the
unlikelihood of rhodies with 5"-diameter trunks not having root systems
that penetrate only within the top six inches or so. So I guess it
comes down to people's definitions of "shallow-rooted". For our
purposes, because of the soakaway, I think I now need to do some serious
googling to find out if the "shallow roots" of a mature rhododendron
penetrate near or beyond the 1-foot level.

Eddy.


I don't know if these would be happy but if rhododendrons would be, why not
evergreen azaleas of different types? The scented ones are really gorgeous.
--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(remove weeds from address)
'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
children.'