You have all been most helpful!

I've been thinking about this on my lunchtime stroll to the shops.

I think I will build a box the rough height and width I want out of
bricks. This allows me to fill the box with logs. A space to be used
by critters at some point I hope.

I can then shape around this with concrete. Once the rough shape is
done, I can put down some of the underlay, some thick liner (I found
1mm rubber one) and then another layer of underlay, then finally more
concrete to hold the rocks in place. Enough [real] rocks and pebbles
and you will not see the main structure.

What about concrete cracking? Would the fact that the liner is between
two sheets of underlay resist tearing? Small cracks I would imagine
would survive. Greater than 1mm I have a bigger problem.

This will be the waterfall as well as the cascading stream down to
pond 1. I can then have little stream to pond 2. Finally, I like the
idea of the 3rd pond. Very neat. It'll have to be = pipe volume +
Stream volume + Waterfall volume.

Thanks for the links and info. Plenty reading for me to do

In my mind's eye, I can see this clearly. Now to implement this!
Anyone got any spare time? I have many spare beers (Well, not spare
but willing to share) and lots of food. I'll provide everything, you
provide help / expertise

Cheers,
Crispin

On 31 Mar, 09:55, "PK" wrote:
"sm_jamieson" wrote in message

...

To make it look good you need real rocks (from a local quarry or
landscape gardening place. Build a big waterproof tray



Build a set of recessed steps into the bank, line with butyl, sit big rocks
on the steps, arrange small rocks and scree to hide the liner.

some numbers on water flow hehttp://www.californiawaterscapes.com...fall-build.htm

pk

We used a cheap liner (PVC) and regretted it ever since. Butyl
stretches so it is less likely to rupture when pulled tight over a
stone.
Simon.

On Mar 31, 1:48 pm, sm_jamieson wrote:
On 31 Mar, 09:55, "PK" wrote:

"sm_jamieson" wrote in message

...

To make it look good you need real rocks (from a local quarry or
landscape gardening place. Build a big waterproof tray

Build a set of recessed steps into the bank, line with butyl, sit big rocks
on the steps, arrange small rocks and scree to hide the liner.

some numbers on water flow hehttp://www.californiawaterscapes.com...fall-build.htm

pk

We used a cheap liner (PVC) and regretted it ever since. Butyl
stretches so it is less likely to rupture when pulled tight over a
stone.
Simon.

Thanks Simon - will remember that.

In article 5b53eb83-7d9d-46c7-936f-
,
says...
You have all been most helpful!

I've been thinking about this on my lunchtime stroll to the shops.

I think I will build a box the rough height and width I want out of
bricks. This allows me to fill the box with logs. A space to be used
by critters at some point I hope.

I can then shape around this with concrete. Once the rough shape is
done, I can put down some of the underlay, some thick liner (I found
1mm rubber one) and then another layer of underlay, then finally more
concrete to hold the rocks in place. Enough [real] rocks and pebbles
and you will not see the main structure.

What about concrete cracking? Would the fact that the liner is between
two sheets of underlay resist tearing? Small cracks I would imagine
would survive. Greater than 1mm I have a bigger problem.

This will be the waterfall as well as the cascading stream down to
pond 1. I can then have little stream to pond 2. Finally, I like the
idea of the 3rd pond. Very neat. It'll have to be = pipe volume +
Stream volume + Waterfall volume.

Thanks for the links and info. Plenty reading for me to do

In my mind's eye, I can see this clearly. Now to implement this!
Anyone got any spare time? I have many spare beers (Well, not spare
but willing to share) and lots of food. I'll provide everything, you
provide help / expertise

Cheers,
Crispin

If you do not use butyl under everything it will leak! (see Adams good
post), there are obviously sites out there that will tell you what to do,
but do not expect it to hold water if you rely on concrete
--
Charlie Pridham, Gardening in Cornwall
www.roselandhouse.co.uk
Holders of national collections of Clematis viticella cultivars and
Lapageria rosea

On Mar 31, 1:36 pm, wrote:
You have all been most helpful!

I've been thinking about this on my lunchtime stroll to the shops.

I think I will build a box the rough height and width I want out of
bricks.

Sounds good

This allows me to fill the box with logs. A space to be used
by critters at some point I hope.

Whoa, logs will rot out , natural log pile somewhere mebbe but not
supporting a waterfall.

I can then shape around this with concrete.

Dont want no stinking concrete, compacted soil and bricks are just
fine.

Once the rough shape is
done, I can put down some of the underlay, some thick liner (I found
1mm rubber one) and then another layer of underlay,

Geotextile or landscape fabric is what your after,stops root invasion
into the liner, not frost protection fleece which is a lot thinner,
under the liner.
Use sand as well to form shapes and iron out creases.

Liner is matter of budget, polythene wont last more than a season dont
bother.
PVC is pretty good on the price/performance ratio but isnt very
stretchy,creases rather than moulds, and isnt very patchable if it
needs repair.
Synthetic rubbers like Firestone is pretty good.
Butyl rubber comes in various grades , some butyl rubbers dont have
very much butyl in them, it stretches, is repairable and lasts for
ever, it costs as you would imagine. One of many:

http://www.pond-liners-pumps-filters.co.uk/

then finally more
concrete to hold the rocks in place. Enough [real] rocks and pebbles
and you will not see the main structure.

Look at the pictures on Paul Dyer`s site , lots of flat rocks that
will stack, not random shaped rocks that end up looking like a pit
bing.
Natural stone paving slabs break up nicely for things like this and
the rustic edging stones.
Again geotextile where you need it to stop rocks puncturing liner and
just enough sandy mortar mix to hold the rocks in place , concrete is
for motorway bridges.

What about concrete cracking? Would the fact that the liner is between
two sheets of underlay resist tearing? Small cracks I would imagine
would survive. Greater than 1mm I have a bigger problem.

Dont use concrete ;-)
Underlay is always a good idea, geotextile not old carpet it rots.
Make sure your liner is well supported in firm soil with a layer of
sand and underlay and it wont tear unless you put a fork through it.

Concrete ponds almost traditionally leak and are often coated in G4 to
kill the porosity

http://www.arghamvillage.co.uk/produ...tails/180.html

Bit evil to use though as its moisture curing dont want to spray it.

Easy solution don`t use cement for sealing ;-)


This will be the waterfall as well as the cascading stream down to
pond 1. I can then have little stream to pond 2. Finally, I like the
idea of the 3rd pond. Very neat. It'll have to be = pipe volume +
Stream volume + Waterfall volume.

Remember to put plumbing and wiring in for lighting before you start
mortaring things into place....

Adam


Thanks for the links and info. Plenty reading for me to do

In my mind's eye, I can see this clearly. Now to implement this!
Anyone got any spare time? I have many spare beers (Well, not spare
but willing to share) and lots of food. I'll provide everything, you
provide help / expertise

Cheers,
Crispin

On 31 Mar, 13:59, wrote:
On Mar 31, 1:48 pm, sm_jamieson wrote:



On 31 Mar, 09:55, "PK" wrote:

"sm_jamieson" wrote in message

...

To make it look good you need real rocks (from a local quarry or
landscape gardening place. Build a big waterproof tray

Build a set of recessed steps into the bank, line with butyl, sit big rocks
on the steps, arrange small rocks and scree to hide the liner.

some numbers on water flow hehttp://www.californiawaterscapes.com...fall-build.htm

pk

We used a cheap liner (PVC) and regretted it ever since. Butyl
stretches so it is less likely to rupture when pulled tight over a
stone.
Simon.

Thanks Simon - will remember that.

Oh yes, and fix with a bicycle puncture repair kit !
Good luck,
Simon.

Adam, Charlie - thanks.

I know the issues with cement / concrete / mortar. As water proof as a
slice of toast. My last place had a homemade pond / waterfall which
leaked like a sieve. I eventually left it alone / dry.
This is why I want to get this one right.

The logs mentioned are just for incests / to fill the space. Not load
baring at all.
Again, thanks for the tips. Now I'm getting excited about it.....

One (one of many) questions that has popped into my head now is where
pond 1 goes into stream. I saw special glue to bond PVC liners. I
assume you can get the same stuff for the butyl rubber. Even a large
overlap, capillary action would suck it dry.

Think I'll go re-read everything tonight. Then, I'll write a book
(Credit to you all!

Cheers,
Crispin

On Mar 31, 3:35 pm, Martin wrote:
On Mon, 31 Mar 2008 05:36:10 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
You have all been most helpful!

I've been thinking about this on my lunchtime stroll to the shops.

I think I will build a box the rough height and width I want out of
bricks. This allows me to fill the box with logs. A space to be used
by critters at some point I hope.

I can then shape around this with concrete. Once the rough shape is
done, I can put down some of the underlay, some thick liner (I found
1mm rubber one) and then another layer of underlay, then finally more
concrete to hold the rocks in place. Enough [real] rocks and pebbles
and you will not see the main structure.

What about concrete cracking? Would the fact that the liner is between
two sheets of underlay resist tearing? Small cracks I would imagine
would survive. Greater than 1mm I have a bigger problem.

Some build boat hulls using a matrix of chicken wire covered with waterproof
cement. The result is very strong and completely waterproof.
Chicken wire ferro cement -http://www.green-trust.org/2003/ferrocement/default.htm
--

Martin

Martin,

What makes this waterproof? I'm kinda lost.
I get the chicken wire idea. is the cement special? An additive maybe?

Regards,
Crispin

On 31 Mar, 17:10, Martin wrote:
On Mon, 31 Mar 2008 08:47:02 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
On Mar 31, 3:35 pm, Martin wrote:
On Mon, 31 Mar 2008 05:36:10 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
You have all been most helpful!

I've been thinking about this on my lunchtime stroll to the shops.

I think I will build a box the rough height and width I want out of
bricks. This allows me to fill the box with logs. A space to be used
by critters at some point I hope.

I can then shape around this with concrete. Once the rough shape is
done, I can put down some of the underlay, some thick liner (I found
1mm rubber one) and then another layer of underlay, then finally more
concrete to hold the rocks in place. Enough [real] rocks and pebbles
and you will not see the main structure.

What about concrete cracking? Would the fact that the liner is between
two sheets of underlay resist tearing? Small cracks I would imagine
would survive. Greater than 1mm I have a bigger problem.

Some build boat hulls using a matrix of chicken wire covered with waterproof
cement. The result is very strong and completely waterproof.
Chicken wire ferro cement -http://www.green-trust.org/2003/ferrocement/default.htm
--

Martin

Martin,

What makes this waterproof? I'm kinda lost.
I get the chicken wire idea. is the cement special? An additive maybe?

They seem to use Portland Cement. Ask at a builders supply place.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrocement
--

Martin

Try http://ferrocement.com

Artificial rock used to be a major Victorian curiosity, nothing like a
grotto for getting one up on the Jones`s on the next estate. Americans
are givng it a new lease of life try searching on Faux Rock places
like:

http://www.rockandwater.com/

HTH
Adam

On 2 Apr, 22:32, Martin wrote:
On Wed, 2 Apr 2008 04:35:04 -0700 (PDT), Adam Aglionby
wrote:



On 31 Mar, 17:10, Martin wrote:
On Mon, 31 Mar 2008 08:47:02 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
On Mar 31, 3:35 pm, Martin wrote:
On Mon, 31 Mar 2008 05:36:10 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
You have all been most helpful!

I've been thinking about this on my lunchtime stroll to the shops.

I think I will build a box the rough height and width I want out of
bricks. This allows me to fill the box with logs. A space to be used
by critters at some point I hope.

I can then shape around this with concrete. Once the rough shape is
done, I can put down some of the underlay, some thick liner (I found
1mm rubber one) and then another layer of underlay, then finally more
concrete to hold the rocks in place. Enough [real] rocks and pebbles
and you will not see the main structure.

What about concrete cracking? Would the fact that the liner is between
two sheets of underlay resist tearing? Small cracks I would imagine
would survive. Greater than 1mm I have a bigger problem.

Some build boat hulls using a matrix of chicken wire covered with waterproof
cement. The result is very strong and completely waterproof.
Chicken wire ferro cement -http://www.green-trust.org/2003/ferrocement/default.htm
--

Martin

Martin,

What makes this waterproof? I'm kinda lost.
I get the chicken wire idea. is the cement special? An additive maybe?

They seem to use Portland Cement. Ask at a builders supply place.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrocement
--

Martin

Try http://ferrocement.com

Artificial rock used to be a major Victorian curiosity, nothing like a
grotto for getting one up on the Jones`s on the next estate.

Schloss Linderhof has a complete underground grotto, complete with wood fired
heated pool for local nymphs, made out of ferro cement.
--

Martin

Pulhamite was the stuff was trying to remember:

http://www.pulham.org.uk

http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/s...show/nav.18750

For the OP came across this basic instructable:

http://www.artificialrock.ca/form.html

Having watched prop builders turn unpromising blocks of poly into
perfect replica sphinxes and things , the building part is a skill
that you can learn, the abilty to turn it into what you can envision
is a talent that you cannae.

There was a touring replica of some French show caves built from
polystyrene a few years ago.

Adam

Martin schrieb:
Same period as Schloss Linderhof, built by Mad Max 1st of Bavaria for Wagner

Mad Max II


Could you, please, broaden my knowledge of Bavarian history? :-) Who was
Mad Max I or II?
Cheers
Gotthelf

On 8 Apr, 10:42, G Wolmershäuser wrote:
Martin schrieb:

Same period as Schloss Linderhof, built by Mad Max 1st of Bavaria for Wagner

Mad Max II

Could you, please, broaden my knowledge of Bavarian history? :-) Who was
Mad Max I or II?
Cheers
Gotthelf

Possibly better known for Schloss Neuschwanstein:

http://www.neuschwanstein.de/english/index.htm

His grottoe looks fantastic , if his family hadn`t bumped him off
would have had a Versailles replica as well, somewhere near the
original topic the waterworks at Versailles cost as much as the rest
of the palace put together.

Adam

Martin schrieb:

His name was Ludwig II. I don't know why I typed Max.

Perhaps due to his father's name "Maximilian II. Joseph"? But I'm glad
that I didn't have to revise my view of Bavarian history :-)
Did you know that one of his relatives "Franz Bonaventura Adalbert Maria
Prinz von Bayern" could possibly become King of England? :-) :-)
Cheers
Gotthelf