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Old 14-08-2008, 11:04 PM posted to uk.rec.gardening
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Default Damons? Plums?

In message , Nick Maclaren
writes

In article ,
Stewart Robert Hinsley writes:
|
| Well, there are about 70 in Bean. What is now Prunus used to be
| half a dozen different genera, but they were 'lumped' - whether
| that was justified or not, I can't say. The old Prunus was just
| the plums.
|
| Prunus - plums
| Amygdalus - almond
| Armeniaca - apricot
| Persica - peach
| Cerasus - cherries
| Padus - more cherries
| Laurocerasus - cherry laurels
|
| (per Komarov, 1971, fide Lee & Wen 2001)
|
| But a single genus has been the most common position for a long time
| (e.g. Bentham & Hooker, 1865).
|
| Molecular systematics work doesn't support the split genera, but the
| clade as a whole doesn't look well resolved. For the latest (April) word
| on the topic see
|
| http://www.plantsystematics.com/qika...g/jse08050.pdf

Thanks. But it seems to be yet another single gene/whatever analysis,
and therefore as likely to be completely misleading as not!


I did say that it "doesn't look well resolved". However, as a point of
order, two genes (ndhF and ITS) were used. (From what I've seen
elsewhere ndhF is too conservative to be ideal at this level.)

Especially for a genus like Prunus :-(


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.


--
Stewart Robert Hinsley
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Old 14-08-2008, 11:32 PM posted to uk.rec.gardening
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Default Damons? Plums?


In article ,
Stewart Robert Hinsley writes:
| |
| | Molecular systematics work doesn't support the split genera, but the
| | clade as a whole doesn't look well resolved. For the latest (April) word
| | on the topic see
| |
| | http://www.plantsystematics.com/qika...g/jse08050.pdf
|
| Thanks. But it seems to be yet another single gene/whatever analysis,
| and therefore as likely to be completely misleading as not!
|
| I did say that it "doesn't look well resolved". However, as a point of
| order, two genes (ndhF and ITS) were used. (From what I've seen
| elsewhere ndhF is too conservative to be ideal at this level.)

Oh, it wasn't a criticism of you! And my point is statistical, not
molecular - the chances of a single characteristic being misleading
about the ancestry of an organism are very high indeed. It's not
possible to give numbers without more data, but I could explain why
fairly easily.

Of course, uk.rec.gardening is not precisely the group for fairly
advanced statistical concepts, but what the hell? :-)


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.
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Old 15-08-2008, 10:44 AM posted to uk.rec.gardening
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Default Damons? Plums?

On 14/8/08 21:27, in article ,
"Rusty Hinge 2" wrote:

The message
from Sacha contains these words:

English people living in bits of France, btw. ;-) But I will correct that
info and pass it on to them outdoors. What rather surprised me was just
how huge the Prunus grouping is. Given that taxonomists seem to spend half
their time confusing the likes of me by changing the name of some perfectly
happy and innocent plant, how is it that Prunus is such a big LUMP of a
thing?!


hyperbole="slight"

Huh! If you want meddling boffins, look no further than mycology.
Practically every mycologist of note and many of none, classify fungi in
the genus of their own naming using different criteria.

/hyperbole

A mushroom can appear in one genus (say, Tricholoma) according to an
'authority', and in another (say, Lepista) according to another.

Obviously closely-related species get bunged out of one genus where it
had seemed well-established and dropped into another on (say) the colour
of spores.


Perhaps good old Prunus are best left alone, after all. I really cannot be
doing with these tiresome people who can spend 3 hours arguing about the
length of stamens in order to support their theory that a plant belongs to
one genus or another altogether!


--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.com
South Devon


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Old 15-08-2008, 11:15 AM posted to uk.rec.gardening
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Default Damons? Plums?


In article ,
Sacha writes:
|
| Perhaps good old Prunus are best left alone, after all. I really cannot be
| doing with these tiresome people who can spend 3 hours arguing about the
| length of stamens in order to support their theory that a plant belongs to
| one genus or another altogether!

Yeah. If P. spinosa is a chromosome doubled hybrid of P. cerasifera
and Microcerasus microcarpa, then there is no reason why it shouldn't
be transferred to the latter genus. Of course, many authorities
regard Microcerasus as merely a section inside Prunus, which makes
things a lot easier.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.
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Old 15-08-2008, 11:31 AM posted to uk.rec.gardening
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Default Damons? Plums?

In message , Nick Maclaren
writes

In article ,
Gordon H writes:
|
| There is a smallish tree in the park just beyond my garden fence which
| bears a damson-like fruit some years. It's a darn nuisance because
| it drops them on my garden, and because small boys climb the tree and
| throw them at my house if they spot them
|
| I did try eating one, but it didn't taste like a plum, and the windfalls
| were all bruised.

What did they taste like? And what is the stone like?

Regards,
Nick Maclaren.


It was some time since I tried a bite, but they have the slimmer oval
shape of damsons, and are smaller than most plums, deep purple in
colour. I will see if I can find one, but haven't noticed them this
year, sorry.
--
Gordon H


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Old 15-08-2008, 11:48 AM posted to uk.rec.gardening
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Default Damons? Plums?


In article ,
Gordon H writes:
|
| It was some time since I tried a bite, but they have the slimmer oval
| shape of damsons, and are smaller than most plums, deep purple in
| colour. I will see if I can find one, but haven't noticed them this
| year, sorry.

Some damsons are round! Except for the damson/bullace, I don't know
of any plums with deep purple fruit that is 2 cm in diameter or more.
Unless there is a form of P. cerasifera that my books don't mention.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.
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Old 15-08-2008, 11:56 AM posted to uk.rec.gardening
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Default Damons? Plums?

On 15/8/08 10:15, in article , "Nick
Maclaren" wrote:


In article ,
Sacha writes:
|
| Perhaps good old Prunus are best left alone, after all. I really cannot be
| doing with these tiresome people who can spend 3 hours arguing about the
| length of stamens in order to support their theory that a plant belongs to
| one genus or another altogether!

Yeah. If P. spinosa is a chromosome doubled hybrid of P. cerasifera
and Microcerasus microcarpa, then there is no reason why it shouldn't
be transferred to the latter genus. Of course, many authorities
regard Microcerasus as merely a section inside Prunus, which makes
things a lot easier.

AFAICS the salient differences are that damsons are smaller and more tart,
which is why they're more often used in cooking.

--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.com
South Devon


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Default Damons? Plums?

On 15/8/08 10:48, in article , "Nick
Maclaren" wrote:


In article ,
Gordon H writes:
|
| It was some time since I tried a bite, but they have the slimmer oval
| shape of damsons, and are smaller than most plums, deep purple in
| colour. I will see if I can find one, but haven't noticed them this
| year, sorry.

Some damsons are round! Except for the damson/bullace, I don't know
of any plums with deep purple fruit that is 2 cm in diameter or more.
Unless there is a form of P. cerasifera that my books don't mention.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.


I found this re damsons. To me plums aren't as deep a colour as this:
http://tinyurl.com/5flbcm
--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.com
South Devon


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Old 15-08-2008, 12:29 PM posted to uk.rec.gardening
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Default Damons? Plums?


In article ,
Sacha writes:
|
| I found this re damsons. To me plums aren't as deep a colour as this:
| http://tinyurl.com/5flbcm

There are some. Also some damsons are yellow, and even green.
There really is no hard and fast distinction between any of the
categories of P. domestica.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.
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Old 15-08-2008, 04:29 PM posted to uk.rec.gardening
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Default Damons? Plums?

Sacha writes
I really cannot be doing with these tiresome people who can spend 3
hours arguing about the length of stamens in order to support their
theory that a plant belongs to one genus or another altogether!


I'd agree with you is it was all about just tidying species into
convenient boxes. But since the overall aim is to reflect the
evolutionary tree, it's good that there are people willing to go into
this in whatever level of detail is necessary to get to as near the
truth as is possible.
--
Kay


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Default Damons? Plums?

On 15/8/08 15:29, in article , "K"
wrote:

Sacha writes
I really cannot be doing with these tiresome people who can spend 3
hours arguing about the length of stamens in order to support their
theory that a plant belongs to one genus or another altogether!


I'd agree with you is it was all about just tidying species into
convenient boxes. But since the overall aim is to reflect the
evolutionary tree, it's good that there are people willing to go into
this in whatever level of detail is necessary to get to as near the
truth as is possible.


I'm very happy for others to do it and I do admire their persistence and
understand the reasons behind it. It's just not for me! It's a bit like
snowdrops, which I really do love - I simply cannot spend the winter on my
knees arguing over which variety is which but galantophiles are in 7th
heaven!
--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.com
South Devon


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Old 15-08-2008, 08:39 PM posted to uk.rec.gardening
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Default Damons? Plums?

In message , Sacha
writes
On 15/8/08 10:48, in article , "Nick
Maclaren" wrote:
In article ,
Gordon H writes:
|
| It was some time since I tried a bite, but they have the slimmer oval
| shape of damsons, and are smaller than most plums, deep purple in
| colour. I will see if I can find one, but haven't noticed them this
| year, sorry.

Some damsons are round! Except for the damson/bullace, I don't know
of any plums with deep purple fruit that is 2 cm in diameter or more.
Unless there is a form of P. cerasifera that my books don't mention.
Regards,
Nick Maclaren.


I found this re damsons. To me plums aren't as deep a colour as this:
http://tinyurl.com/5flbcm


They are similar, but not easy to tell, I should maybe get a leaf off
the tree?
--
Gordon H
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Old 15-08-2008, 10:10 PM posted to uk.rec.gardening
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Default Damons? Plums?


In article ,
Gordon H writes:
|
| I found this re damsons. To me plums aren't as deep a colour as this:
| http://tinyurl.com/5flbcm
|
| They are similar, but not easy to tell, I should maybe get a leaf off
| the tree?

See if the leaves and growth look plum-like. I am still puzzled
about what way it doesn't taste like a plum.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.
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Old 15-08-2008, 10:32 PM posted to uk.rec.gardening
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Default Damons? Plums?

"Sacha" wrote in message

We had some people in today who live in France and they were looking for
Damsons which they say seem to be unknown there (Paris and Corsica) This
got us onto what is the difference between a Damson and a Plum because
both
are Prunus and probably domestica? I understand that damsons tend to
make
smaller trees but if anyone can explain in terms of flavour or use,
enquiring minds would be really grateful. ;-)


You do ask some interesting questions. I just mentally chuck them all into
the 'prunus' bin in my brain, so was interested to find out more after
reading the discussions. But I must say, the answers you got on this
one!!!!.......they had the head of this little black duck spinning.......

Anyhowever, I wandered off and got out my books on growing fruit in Oz and
found the following info in the one I enjoy most so I offer it for what it's
worth(tailoring it and cutting many pages to a few paras to try to fit the
Continental flavour of your post) .

The sloe has 32 chromosomes, the myrobalan (P. cerasifera) has 16 and 'a
freak combination of the two has been shown to occasionally give a plant
like P. domestica, with its 48 chromosomes'.

P. insitia also has 48 chromosomes and within this group are the bullace,
the damson, the mirabelles and the St. Julians. Mirabelles widely grown in
France mainly for preserves and tarts, better cooked than fresh. St. Julians
mainly used as rootstock, their plums much like damsons 'and the quetsche
also known as the German prune, or Carlsbad plum, is another plum of the
insitia tye, used widely as a culinary fruit.'

There is also an interesting discussion on archaelogical finds of plum
stones and that 'no domestica plum stones...have been found under the ashes
of Pompeii' and that the plums mentioned by Pliny (who wrote of the plum
from Damascus)were 'all insitias, or if domesticas, were recent
introductions to Europe'

Interesting topic.




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In article ,
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given writes:
|
| The sloe has 32 chromosomes, the myrobalan (P. cerasifera) has 16 and 'a
| freak combination of the two has been shown to occasionally give a plant
| like P. domestica, with its 48 chromosomes'.

Yes. A chromosome doubled hybrid. Probably natural, but we don't
know for certain - any more than for wheat.

The abstract I referred to said that the sloe itself is a natural
chromosome doubled hybrid between P. cerasifera and P. microcarpa.

| P. insitia also has 48 chromosomes and within this group are the bullace,
| the damson, the mirabelles and the St. Julians. ...

Nowadays, all (?) authorities agree that P. institia is just a subspecies
of P. domestica - if that.

| There is also an interesting discussion on archaelogical finds of plum
| stones and that 'no domestica plum stones...have been found under the ashes
| of Pompeii' and that the plums mentioned by Pliny (who wrote of the plum
| from Damascus)were 'all insitias, or if domesticas, were recent
| introductions to Europe'

In other words, the large-fruited hybrids are recent. Not all that
surprising, really.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.
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