The message
from "FarmI" ask@itshall be given contains these words:

P. insitia also has 48 chromosomes and within this group are the bullace,
the damson, the mirabelles and the St. Julians. Mirabelles widely grown in
France mainly for preserves and tarts, better cooked than fresh.

And make an excellent plum brandy...

St. Julians
mainly used as rootstock, their plums much like damsons 'and the quetsche
also known as the German prune, or Carlsbad plum, is another plum of the
insitia tye, used widely as a culinary fruit.'

Which makes an even better plum brandy innit.

There is also an interesting discussion on archaelogical finds of plum
stones and that 'no domestica plum stones...have been found under the ashes
of Pompeii' and that the plums mentioned by Pliny (who wrote of the plum
from Damascus)were 'all insitias, or if domesticas, were recent
introductions to Europe'

Interesting topic.

Especially the distillate.

--
Rusty
Direct reply to: horrid dot squeak snailything zetnet point co period uk
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On 15/8/08 21:32, in article
, "FarmI"
ask@itshall be given wrote:

"Sacha" wrote in message

We had some people in today who live in France and they were looking for
Damsons which they say seem to be unknown there (Paris and Corsica) This
got us onto what is the difference between a Damson and a Plum because
both
are Prunus and probably domestica? I understand that damsons tend to
make
smaller trees but if anyone can explain in terms of flavour or use,
enquiring minds would be really grateful. ;-)

You do ask some interesting questions. I just mentally chuck them all into
the 'prunus' bin in my brain, so was interested to find out more after
reading the discussions. But I must say, the answers you got on this
one!!!!.......they had the head of this little black duck spinning.......
snip

There is also an interesting discussion on archaelogical finds of plum
stones and that 'no domestica plum stones...have been found under the ashes
of Pompeii' and that the plums mentioned by Pliny (who wrote of the plum
from Damascus)were 'all insitias, or if domesticas, were recent
introductions to Europe'

Interesting topic.

Wow! Talk about getting the bit between your teeth........ ;-)) Thank you
so muchfor going to all this trouble and producing such interesting info. I
especially like the bit above about no such plum stones being found at
Pompeii - for some reason human details like that make a topic much more
interesting to me!


--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.com
South Devon

In article ,
Sacha writes:
|
| Wow! Talk about getting the bit between your teeth........ ;-)) Thank you
| so muchfor going to all this trouble and producing such interesting info. I
| especially like the bit above about no such plum stones being found at
| Pompeii - for some reason human details like that make a topic much more
| interesting to me!

What baffles me is why Prunus domestica wasn't more important in Neolithic
times (at least not in the UK). The vast majority of the 'plum' stones
found in Neolithic middens are sloes. One hypothesis is that they were
not eaten, but used for dying clothes.

On a not totally unrelated matter, my peche de vigne is growing happily.
I shall discover if it fruits. It would amuse me to introduce a Neolithic
fruit crop into the UK, in the 21st century :-) I am sure that it has
been done before, of course.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On 16/8/08 15:07, in article , "Nick
Maclaren" wrote:


In article ,
Sacha writes:
|
| Wow! Talk about getting the bit between your teeth........ ;-)) Thank
you
| so muchfor going to all this trouble and producing such interesting info.
I
| especially like the bit above about no such plum stones being found at
| Pompeii - for some reason human details like that make a topic much more
| interesting to me!

What baffles me is why Prunus domestica wasn't more important in Neolithic
times (at least not in the UK). The vast majority of the 'plum' stones
found in Neolithic middens are sloes. One hypothesis is that they were
not eaten, but used for dying clothes.

On a not totally unrelated matter, my peche de vigne is growing happily.
I shall discover if it fruits. It would amuse me to introduce a Neolithic
fruit crop into the UK, in the 21st century :-) I am sure that it has
been done before, of course.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Photos if it does, please, Nick! It's just a little similar to us going to
Les Baux and being fascinated that we were on some very high hilltops but
kept seeing limpet shells in the rock faces.

--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.com
South Devon

In article ,
Sacha writes:
|
| On a not totally unrelated matter, my peche de vigne is growing happily.
| I shall discover if it fruits. It would amuse me to introduce a Neolithic
| fruit crop into the UK, in the 21st century :-) I am sure that it has
| been done before, of course.
|
| Photos if it does, please, Nick! It's just a little similar to us going to
| Les Baux and being fascinated that we were on some very high hilltops but
| kept seeing limpet shells in the rock faces.

OK. And probably the stones, for people to grow on :-) But I am not
expecting it - currently, I have plenty of foliage but nothing more.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On 16/8/08 15:56, in article , "Nick
Maclaren" wrote:


In article ,
Sacha writes:
|
| On a not totally unrelated matter, my peche de vigne is growing happily.
| I shall discover if it fruits. It would amuse me to introduce a
Neolithic
| fruit crop into the UK, in the 21st century :-) I am sure that it has
| been done before, of course.
|
| Photos if it does, please, Nick! It's just a little similar to us going to
| Les Baux and being fascinated that we were on some very high hilltops but
| kept seeing limpet shells in the rock faces.

OK. And probably the stones, for people to grow on :-) But I am not
expecting it - currently, I have plenty of foliage but nothing more.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Oh for some sunshine.......... ;-(
--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.com
South Devon

On 14th August Sacha wrote:

We had some people in today who live in France and they were looking for
Damsons which they say seem to be unknown there (Paris and Corsica) This
got us onto what is the difference between a Damson and a Plum because both
are Prunus and probably domestica? I understand that damsons tend to make
smaller trees but if anyone can explain in terms of flavour or use,
enquiring minds would be really grateful. ;-)

Sorry I missed this first time round.

I'm writing from Normandy at the moment and when I bought this house
eighteen years ago it came with several plum trees of two varieties. One
of the varieties is definitely a damson but when I asked my neighbour
what he called it he unhelpfully replied "prune"!

So the damson is known here but the French appear to refer to it simply
as a variety of plum. Having looked it up in Collins-Robert it is
slightly more helpful, calling it a "prune de damas" (a Damascus plum -
damson would appear to be a corruption of this).

Yes, I suppose my damson trees are somewhat smaller than the plum trees
with finer branches. Every year my plum trees fruit prolifically. This
year, not one! We had early frosts here in the Suisse Normande.

David

--
David Rance
writing from Le Mesnil Villement, Calvados, France

In article ,
David Rance writes:
|
| So the damson is known here but the French appear to refer to it simply
| as a variety of plum. Having looked it up in Collins-Robert it is
| slightly more helpful, calling it a "prune de damas" (a Damascus plum -
| damson would appear to be a corruption of this).

Well, it IS just a variety of plum! And, yes, that's its origin.
The French terms that I find a a bit odd are where the same word
is used for two items that are used very differently - groseille
being an example.

| Yes, I suppose my damson trees are somewhat smaller than the plum trees
| with finer branches. Every year my plum trees fruit prolifically. This
| year, not one! We had early frosts here in the Suisse Normande.

And I had the most appalling aphids - no fruit :-(


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On 16th August Nick Maclaren wrote:

David Rance writes:
|
| So the damson is known here but the French appear to refer to it simply
| as a variety of plum. Having looked it up in Collins-Robert it is
| slightly more helpful, calling it a "prune de damas" (a Damascus plum -
| damson would appear to be a corruption of this).

Well, it IS just a variety of plum! And, yes, that's its origin.

Quite! So is the greengage which the French call Reine Claude!

The French terms that I find a a bit odd are where the same word
is used for two items that are used very differently - groseille
being an example.

They do distinguish between groseille rouge, groseille blanche and
groseille à maquereau (gooseberry). Not the blackcurrant however which
is cassis

| Yes, I suppose my damson trees are somewhat smaller than the plum trees
| with finer branches. Every year my plum trees fruit prolifically. This
| year, not one! We had early frosts here in the Suisse Normande.

Sorry, that should have been late frosts!

And I had the most appalling aphids - no fruit :-(

I sympathise.

David

--
David Rance
writing from Le Mesnil Villement, Calvados, France

On 16/8/08 16:12, in article ,
"AriesVal" wrote:

On Sat, 16 Aug 2008 16:07:33 +0100, Sacha wrote:

Oh for some sunshine.......... ;-(

Yes please!

Snap the fingers! There you are!! Oh - whoops, failed again. ;-(
--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.com
South Devon

In article ,
David Rance writes:
|
| Well, it IS just a variety of plum! And, yes, that's its origin.
|
| Quite! So is the greengage which the French call Reine Claude!

Indeed.

| The French terms that I find a a bit odd are where the same word
| is used for two items that are used very differently - groseille
| being an example.
|
| They do distinguish between groseille rouge, groseille blanche and
| groseille à maquereau (gooseberry). Not the blackcurrant however which
| is cassis

Are those terms in common use, though? Whenever I have seen a use
of groseille, it has been unqualified - both when ambiguous and
when clear from the context.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

"David Rance" wrote in message
news:dgqgWRGAAxpIFwCx@David-

Sorry, that should have been late frosts!

And I had the most appalling aphids - no fruit :-(

I sympathise.


No late frosts at Nanneys bridge !
Aphids - no problem (;-)

But praying for no early gales.

http://www.geocities.com/thecanalshop/Malus16082008.jpg

Crab apple jelly calls -------

Regards
Pete
www.thecanalshop.com

On 16th August Nick Maclaren wrote:

David Rance writes:

| They do distinguish between groseille rouge, groseille blanche and
| groseille à maquereau (gooseberry). Not the blackcurrant however which
| is cassis

Are those terms in common use, though? Whenever I have seen a use
of groseille, it has been unqualified - both when ambiguous and
when clear from the context.

Well actually, no. They would use it only when the context wasn't clear.

However the Normans around here call redcurrrants "grades". When my
neighbours talk about groseilles they mean gooseberries. But when they
mean redcurrants they will always say grades. It's not in the standard
dictionary but is in my book of patois "Le Parler Normand". So to them
there isn't a problem!

There are other local variations, "gradelles" and "gradilles", but here
it's "grades".

David

--
David Rance
writing from Le Mesnil Villement, Calvados, France

The message
from Sacha contains these words:

Oh for some sunshine.......... ;-(

I've just apologised to a holly tree (which was knee-high when I moved
in here) and severely truncated it. I shall permit a small trim prickly
ball, but as it was, it completely shaded my 'fruity corner', and I want
some figs...

And some grapes...

And some Japanese quinces...

And later, some hunza apricots...

--
Rusty
Direct reply to: horrid dot squeak snailything zetnet point co period uk
Separator in search of a sig

The message
from (Nick Maclaren) contains these words:
In article ,
David Rance writes:
|
| So the damson is known here but the French appear to refer to it simply
| as a variety of plum. Having looked it up in Collins-Robert it is
| slightly more helpful, calling it a "prune de damas" (a Damascus plum -
| damson would appear to be a corruption of this).

Well, it IS just a variety of plum! And, yes, that's its origin.
The French terms that I find a a bit odd are where the same word
is used for two items that are used very differently - groseille
being an example.

And English (to include USanian) is little better, if at all: think 'muffin'?

--
Rusty
Direct reply to: horrid dot squeak snailything zetnet point co period uk
Separator in search of a sig