On 31/03/10 3:03 PM, Geoff Berrow wrote:

snip

I have had both. I prefer the Goretex lined ones. Very useful when
walking through wet grass.

Wet grass?! I wouldn't hesitate to wear non-waterproof boots in wet
grass, it's hiking in the rain, across streams, and on rough trails with
a lot of puddles that you really want boots with a GoreTex (or some
other brand) of breathable membrane.

There's a good reason why most military infantry boots have a GoreTex
membrane, you don't want to deal with wet feet on a mission. I.e.
"http://marketplace.news.yahoo.net/pressrelease.aspx?id=202678". Not
that hikers and backpackers have the same needs as the military, but it
makes sense to consider all the trade-offs when making a selection.

SMS wrote
Geoff Berrow wrote

I have had both. I prefer the Goretex lined ones. Very useful when walking through wet grass.

Wet grass?! I wouldn't hesitate to wear non-waterproof boots in wet grass, it's hiking in the rain, across streams,
and on rough trails
with a lot of puddles that you really want boots with a GoreTex (or
some other brand) of breathable membrane.

There's a good reason why most military infantry boots have a GoreTex membrane,

Like hell they do.

you don't want to deal with wet feet on a mission. I.e.
"http://marketplace.news.yahoo.net/pressrelease.aspx?id=202678". Not that hikers and backpackers have the same needs
as the military, but it makes sense to consider all the trade-offs when making a selection.

But you mindlessly proclaim that GoreTex or similar is absolutely essential.

SMS wrote:
On 31/03/10 3:03 PM, Geoff Berrow wrote:

snip

I have had both. I prefer the Goretex lined ones. Very useful when
walking through wet grass.

Wet grass?! I wouldn't hesitate to wear non-waterproof boots in wet
grass, it's hiking in the rain, across streams, and on rough trails with
a lot of puddles that you really want boots with a GoreTex (or some
other brand) of breathable membrane.


Again you evidently have different uses for your shoes than I do.
I find wet grass has much more of a wetting potential than the
occasional (or even fairly frequent) dip into water. Then, again, I'm
often off established trails.

Again, because I'm often on the go for several days at a time, I find
quick drying more important than keeping out every last bit of moisture.

And, again, when my feet do get seriously wet, it's from water or snow
coming in through the top. Your "miracle membrane" won't stop that and
will take *much* longer to dry.

There is no one-size-fits-all. Your mindless preaching about Gore-Tex
shoes being ideal for everyone and in all situations really is becoming
ridiculous.

On Thu, 01 Apr 2010 08:19:21 +0200, Christopher Loffredo
wrote:

There is no one-size-fits-all. Your mindless preaching about Gore-Tex
shoes being ideal for everyone and in all situations really is becoming
ridiculous.

I agree. I'm happy with membranes because as I've got older my feet
don't sweat as much. Not everyone is the same.
--
Geoff Berrow (Put thecat out to email)
It's only Usenet, no one dies.
My opinions, not the committee's, mine.
Simple RFDs www.4theweb.co.uk/rfdmaker

On Wed, 31 Mar 2010 15:44:19 -0700, SMS
wrote:


I have had both. I prefer the Goretex lined ones. Very useful when
walking through wet grass.

Wet grass?! I wouldn't hesitate to wear non-waterproof boots in wet
grass, it's hiking in the rain, across streams, and on rough trails with
a lot of puddles that you really want boots with a GoreTex (or some
other brand) of breathable membrane.

I was talking about trail shoes. I've never had boots without a
membrane and so can't tell you if they would be better or worse. I
limit my comments to situations where I have direct experience and
respect the fact that everyone's needs are different. I commend it to
you.
--
Geoff Berrow (Put thecat out to email)
It's only Usenet, no one dies.
My opinions, not the committee's, mine.
Simple RFDs www.4theweb.co.uk/rfdmaker

SMS wrote:

You won't save that much money by not getting a shoe with a GoreTex (or
other breathable membrane) and you lose a huge amount of functionality.
Waterproof socks don't serve the same purpose. GoreTex socks are
expensive, and are thick (like wearing two pairs of regular socks)

(a) no they're not.
(b) again, Goretex isn't the only game in town. Sealskinz waterproof
socks, for example, are standard hiking soock thickness and I use them
in my unlined, remarkably useful, versatile and well travelled Scarpa
trail shoes interchangably with my usual wool/synthetic mix Bridgedales.
So since I have a "not thicker" example in my sock-drawer all your
other points about thickness disappear.

All the experts agree that the best option is to get a shoe that has a
breathable, waterproof membrane.

Manifestly not true. As expert's expert Chris Townsend has already
pointed out, unlined shoes are often preferable.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

On 31/03/10 11:19 PM, Christopher Loffredo wrote:

snip

And, again, when my feet do get seriously wet, it's from water or snow
coming in through the top.

In the U.S. we use gaiters to prevent snow or water from coming in over
the top. Also, in areas where you'd likely be stepping into puddles or
streams it's best to get a higher boot.

You can learn about them here
"http://www.rei.com/expertadvice/articles/gaiters.html".

SMS wrote:
On 31/03/10 11:19 PM, Christopher Loffredo wrote:

snip

And, again, when my feet do get seriously wet, it's from water or snow
coming in through the top.

In the U.S. we use gaiters to prevent snow or water from coming in over
the top. Also, in areas where you'd likely be stepping into puddles or
streams it's best to get a higher boot.

You can learn about them here
"http://www.rei.com/expertadvice/articles/gaiters.html".

Well, in these more backward parts of the planet, we also have gaiters.

Problem is, primitive people like myself sometimes tend to postpone
putting them on until it's a bit too late...

On 31/03/2010 23:44, SMS wrote:
On 31/03/10 3:03 PM, Geoff Berrow wrote:

Wet grass?! I wouldn't hesitate to wear non-waterproof boots in wet
grass, it's hiking in the rain, across streams, and on rough trails with
a lot of puddles that you really want boots with a GoreTex (or some
other brand) of breathable membrane.

And when the water goes over the top? Not IF but WHEN?



There's a good reason why most military infantry boots have a GoreTex
membrane,

Sorry mate the military do NOT ISSUE GORETEX BOOTS TO THE vast majority
of soldiers. I don't know where you get this from but it's NOT TRUE.

I know - I'm ex Army.

On 01/04/2010 16:36, SMS wrote:


In the U.S. we use gaiters to prevent snow or water from coming in over
the top. Also, in areas where you'd likely be stepping into puddles or
streams it's best to get a higher boot.



And thus having an already waterproof boot as in dressed leather
absolutely negates any advantage in having a membrane lining!

On Thu, 01 Apr 2010 09:06:41 +0100, Geoff Berrow
wrote:

On Wed, 31 Mar 2010 15:44:19 -0700, SMS
wrote:


I have had both. I prefer the Goretex lined ones. Very useful when
walking through wet grass.

Wet grass?! I wouldn't hesitate to wear non-waterproof boots in wet
grass, it's hiking in the rain, across streams, and on rough trails with
a lot of puddles that you really want boots with a GoreTex (or some
other brand) of breathable membrane.

I was talking about trail shoes. I've never had boots without a
membrane and so can't tell you if they would be better or worse. I
limit my comments to situations where I have direct experience and
respect the fact that everyone's needs are different. I commend it to
you.

I have worn and tried many different types of boots, socks,
overtrouser and gaiter combinations over the years.

The very worst option is shorts and sealskinz socks in heavy rain.
Water runs down the legs and into the socks where it cannot escape.
Toes end up like prunes.

Waterproof trousers over gaiters is probably the best option in heavy
rain, but in snow the gaiters should be worn over the waterproof
trousers where there is a risk of a self-stabbing by crampon;
hopefully the tough fabric of the gaiter will prevent damage to
expensive waterproof trousers.

On 01/04/10 9:53 AM, Gordon wrote:
On 31/03/2010 23:44, SMS wrote:
On 31/03/10 3:03 PM, Geoff Berrow wrote:

Wet grass?! I wouldn't hesitate to wear non-waterproof boots in wet
grass, it's hiking in the rain, across streams, and on rough trails with
a lot of puddles that you really want boots with a GoreTex (or some
other brand) of breathable membrane.

And when the water goes over the top? Not IF but WHEN?

As I explained, in weather or conditions where this would be an issue,
the prudent thing to do is to wear gaiters.

Sorry mate the military do NOT ISSUE GORETEX BOOTS TO THE vast majority
of soldiers. I don't know where you get this from but it's NOT TRUE.

I know - I'm ex Army.

That may have been the case when you were in the Army, but these days
the combat boots for wet and cold conditions have a
waterproof/breathable membrane. It's written into the specification that
the manufacturers bid on.

On 01/04/10 10:38 AM, Tom Crispin wrote:

Waterproof trousers over gaiters is probably the best option in heavy
rain, but in snow the gaiters should be worn over the waterproof
trousers where there is a risk of a self-stabbing by crampon;
hopefully the tough fabric of the gaiter will prevent damage to
expensive waterproof trousers.

For ice climbing this is the case, but for XC skiing the trousers won't
be damaged by anything. the classic knickers, with the gaiters over
them, is what used to be common for XC skiing before knickers went out
of fashion. Now with the plastic boots for back-country skiing there is
no need for waterproofing, but you still need gaiters. Some of the
higher end winter pants have integrated gaiters (along with a GoreTex
membrane of course).

On 01/04/2010 18:59, SMS wrote:


As I explained, in weather or conditions where this would be an issue,
the prudent thing to do is to wear gaiters.

Unless you have gaiters that have a water-tight seal onto the boot, it
does NOT stop water wicking up and into the boot.



Sorry mate the military do NOT ISSUE GORETEX BOOTS TO THE vast majority
of soldiers. I don't know where you get this from but it's NOT TRUE.

I know - I'm ex Army.

That may have been the case when you were in the Army, but these days
the combat boots for wet and cold conditions have a
waterproof/breathable membrane. It's written into the specification that
the manufacturers bid on.

Certainly NOT in the British army.

Gordon wrote
SMS wrote
Geoff Berrow wrote

Wet grass?! I wouldn't hesitate to wear non-waterproof boots in wet grass, it's hiking in the rain, across streams,
and on rough trails with a lot of puddles that you really want boots with a GoreTex (or some other brand) of
breathable membrane.

And when the water goes over the top? Not IF but WHEN?

I havent had any water come in over the top in 50 years.

And I dont wear the longer boots either.

There's a good reason why most military infantry boots have a GoreTex membrane,

Sorry mate the military do NOT ISSUE GORETEX BOOTS TO THE vast
majority of soldiers. I don't know where you get this from but it's NOT TRUE.

I know - I'm ex Army.