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Best alternative to Sodium Chlorate?
Now that we can't get Sodium Chlorate what's the best (as in
reasonably cheap + effective) alternative? I recently used up my last bit of Sodium Chlorate on one part of our large area of gravel and Pathclear on another area. The Pathclear seems to have been totally ineffective whereas the Sodium Chlorate worked well. So I'm not very impressed with Pathclear for a start. I *want* the weedkiller to stay in the ground for as long as possible so products that leave 'no residue' are most definitely not what I want. It's a big (like getting on for 1000 square metres) area of gravel so price is quite a major consideration. -- Chris Green |
Best alternative to Sodium Chlorate?
On 02/06/2010 10:47, wrote:
Now that we can't get Sodium Chlorate what's the best (as in reasonably cheap + effective) alternative? You should probably have done a last time buy. You are not supposed to use it any more though since ISTR 10/5/2010. Not sure why the EU banned it - probably some halfwitted jobsworth interfering again. At least this year there are still places around with some on the shelves and in their catalogues. eg. http://www.carrs-billington.com/pdf/...n_products.pdf (dunno if this lot actually have any stock) I recently used up my last bit of Sodium Chlorate on one part of our large area of gravel and Pathclear on another area. The Pathclear seems to have been totally ineffective whereas the Sodium Chlorate worked well. So I'm not very impressed with Pathclear for a start. I *want* the weedkiller to stay in the ground for as long as possible so products that leave 'no residue' are most definitely not what I want. It's a big (like getting on for 1000 square metres) area of gravel so price is quite a major consideration. I have found Pathclear reasonably effective. But then I rely on gravel depth to keep most weeds in check and only hit problem areas with a weedkiller (like where ground elder or horsetail comes up). Regards, Martin Brown |
Best alternative to Sodium Chlorate?
wrote in message ... Now that we can't get Sodium Chlorate what's the best (as in reasonably cheap + effective) alternative? I recently used up my last bit of Sodium Chlorate on one part of our large area of gravel and Pathclear on another area. The Pathclear seems to have been totally ineffective whereas the Sodium Chlorate worked well. So I'm not very impressed with Pathclear for a start. I *want* the weedkiller to stay in the ground for as long as possible so products that leave 'no residue' are most definitely not what I want. It's a big (like getting on for 1000 square metres) area of gravel so price is quite a major consideration. Glyphosate is the stuff you need. It will kill all but the broadest leafed stuff at one application. It works by foliar contact so your dream of "it staying in the ground " will remain a dream ! It comes in five litre concentrate form from the "locked away section" at about £40, so you will need a knapsack or similar sprayer. Regards Pete www.thecanalshop.com |
Best alternative to Sodium Chlorate?
"Stephen Wolstenholme" wrote in message ... On Wed, 2 Jun 2010 10:47:46 +0100, wrote: I use sodium chloride to keep my path and gravel clear of weeds. Steve Would be cheaper than the stuff I suggested. In what form and how do you apply it ? Regards Pete www.thecanalshop.com |
Best alternative to Sodium Chlorate?
On 02/06/10 12:18, Pete wrote:
"Stephen Wolstenholme" wrote in message ... On Wed, 2 Jun 2010 10:47:46 +0100, wrote: I use sodium chloride to keep my path and gravel clear of weeds. Steve Would be cheaper than the stuff I suggested. In what form and how do you apply it ? Sodium Chorideis rock salt, which is available in road side bins and salt pots. Draw your own conclusions about the cost. |
Best alternative to Sodium Chlorate?
On Wed, 2 Jun 2010 11:18:25 +0100, "Pete"
wrote: "Stephen Wolstenholme" wrote in message .. . On Wed, 2 Jun 2010 10:47:46 +0100, wrote: I use sodium chloride to keep my path and gravel clear of weeds. Steve Would be cheaper than the stuff I suggested. In what form and how do you apply it ? Regards Pete I use whatever sort of salt comes cheapest. The last lot I used was a big bag of cooking salt from Tesco. I just sprinkle it dry onto the areas where the weeds are growing. Steve -- Neural Planner Software Ltd www.NPSL1.com EasyNN-plus. Neural Networks plus. www.easynn.com SwingNN. Forecast with Neural Networks. www.swingnn.com JustNN. Just Neural Networks. www.justnn.com |
Best alternative to Sodium Chlorate?
On 02/06/10 12:03, Martin Brown wrote:
On 02/06/2010 10:47, wrote: Now that we can't get Sodium Chlorate what's the best (as in reasonably cheap + effective) alternative? You should probably have done a last time buy. You are not supposed to use it any more though since ISTR 10/5/2010. Not sure why the EU banned it - probably some halfwitted jobsworth interfering again. Maybe you should use google to find the reasons before going off at half cock? The reasons are given here http://www.dgsgardening.btinternet.c...l.htm#sodchlor |
Best alternative to Sodium Chlorate?
Martin wrote:
On 02/06/10 12:03, Martin Brown wrote: On 02/06/2010 10:47, wrote: Now that we can't get Sodium Chlorate what's the best (as in reasonably cheap + effective) alternative? You should probably have done a last time buy. You are not supposed to use it any more though since ISTR 10/5/2010. Not sure why the EU banned it - probably some halfwitted jobsworth interfering again. Maybe you should use google to find the reasons before going off at half cock? The reasons are given here http://www.dgsgardening.btinternet.c...l.htm#sodchlor "In July 2008 the European Commission Pesticides Review Standing Committee voted not to include Sodium Chlorate in Annex 1 of the approved pesticides list and given a last date of sale on 30th September 2009. It cannot be used after 10th May 2010 and any excess disposed of in the approved manner on that date; not down the drain." Note, they "voted". Whenever an expert committee has to vote, it's in the realm of opinion, not science. See also the Bank Of England committee voting on whether to raise interest rates or not, etc. So yep, interfering half-witted jobsworths, as usual. It's the basic problem with having standing committees. They have to keep doing things, or make themselves redundant. The one thing they'll never vote for is their own dissolution. As a result, the world will never be safe enough, clean enough, green enough or regulated enough. Ian |
Best alternative to Sodium Chlorate?
On 02/06/2010 11:57, Martin wrote:
On 02/06/10 12:03, Martin Brown wrote: On 02/06/2010 10:47, wrote: Now that we can't get Sodium Chlorate what's the best (as in reasonably cheap + effective) alternative? You should probably have done a last time buy. You are not supposed to use it any more though since ISTR 10/5/2010. Not sure why the EU banned it - probably some halfwitted jobsworth interfering again. Maybe you should use google to find the reasons before going off at half cock? The reasons are given here http://www.dgsgardening.btinternet.c...l.htm#sodchlor They *voted* to ban it. That is not a reason for anything. Sodium chlorate is not particularly good for making explosives unless you have a death wish. And agricultural ammonium nitrate fertiliser will always be freely available in much larger bulk quantities. Drain and oven cleaner is widely sold in supermarkets and is far more dangerous to life and limb. I have complained about the cretinous TV advert with the bloke and the plastic bag oven shelf advert sloshing concentrated caustic about with no eye protection. Same goes for the morons spraying fence preservative with no mask or eye protection (although the modern stuff now is so useless at preserving wood that it probably is harmless if you get it in the eye). Regards, Martin Brown |
Best alternative to Sodium Chlorate?
On 02/06/2010 11:47, wrote:
Now that we can't get Sodium Chlorate what's the best (as in reasonably cheap + effective) alternative? I recently used up my last bit of Sodium Chlorate on one part of our large area of gravel and Pathclear on another area. The Pathclear seems to have been totally ineffective whereas the Sodium Chlorate worked well. So I'm not very impressed with Pathclear for a start. I *want* the weedkiller to stay in the ground for as long as possible so products that leave 'no residue' are most definitely not what I want. It's a big (like getting on for 1000 square metres) area of gravel so price is quite a major consideration. My gravel drive is something like 300 metres long. I've used Sodium Chlorate and I've used Glypohsate. Glyphosate worked out cheaper! One of those five litre tubs of concentrate is expensive but it lasts a very long time. The sodium chlorate was no better at killing weeds and new ones popped up soon after it rained anyway, so it didn't seem to have a long lasting effect. During Summer I spray the drive every couple of months. Just don't use Roundup - it is a very expensive way of buying generic glyphosate. -- David in Normandy. To e-mail you must include the password FROG on the subject line, or it will be automatically deleted by a filter and not reach my inbox. |
Best alternative to Sodium Chlorate?
David in Normandy wrote:
On 02/06/2010 11:47, wrote: Now that we can't get Sodium Chlorate what's the best (as in reasonably cheap + effective) alternative? I recently used up my last bit of Sodium Chlorate on one part of our large area of gravel and Pathclear on another area. The Pathclear seems to have been totally ineffective whereas the Sodium Chlorate worked well. So I'm not very impressed with Pathclear for a start. I *want* the weedkiller to stay in the ground for as long as possible so products that leave 'no residue' are most definitely not what I want. It's a big (like getting on for 1000 square metres) area of gravel so price is quite a major consideration. My gravel drive is something like 300 metres long. I've used Sodium Chlorate and I've used Glypohsate. Glyphosate worked out cheaper! One of those five litre tubs of concentrate is expensive but it lasts a very long time. The sodium chlorate was no better at killing weeds and new ones popped up soon after it rained anyway, so it didn't seem to have a long lasting effect. During Summer I spray the drive every couple of months. Just don't use Roundup - it is a very expensive way of buying generic glyphosate. "Every couple of months" seems very frequent to me. I've got our gravel pretty well dosed with sodium chlorate and it seems to be fairly inhospitable to new growth. The trouble with using just glyphosate is that it has virtually no residual effect so (as you describe) isn't very long lasting. -- Chris Green |
Best alternative to Sodium Chlorate?
On 02/06/2010 14:58, wrote:
David in wrote: On 02/06/2010 11:47, wrote: Now that we can't get Sodium Chlorate what's the best (as in reasonably cheap + effective) alternative? I recently used up my last bit of Sodium Chlorate on one part of our large area of gravel and Pathclear on another area. The Pathclear seems to have been totally ineffective whereas the Sodium Chlorate worked well. So I'm not very impressed with Pathclear for a start. I *want* the weedkiller to stay in the ground for as long as possible so products that leave 'no residue' are most definitely not what I want. It's a big (like getting on for 1000 square metres) area of gravel so price is quite a major consideration. My gravel drive is something like 300 metres long. I've used Sodium Chlorate and I've used Glypohsate. Glyphosate worked out cheaper! One of those five litre tubs of concentrate is expensive but it lasts a very long time. The sodium chlorate was no better at killing weeds and new ones popped up soon after it rained anyway, so it didn't seem to have a long lasting effect. During Summer I spray the drive every couple of months. Just don't use Roundup - it is a very expensive way of buying generic glyphosate. "Every couple of months" seems very frequent to me. I've got our gravel pretty well dosed with sodium chlorate and it seems to be fairly inhospitable to new growth. The trouble with using just glyphosate is that it has virtually no residual effect so (as you describe) isn't very long lasting. Sodium chlorate is pretty soluble though and tends to wash downhill. You must have put a heck of a lot on if it lasts longer term or live somewhere very very dry! Where I live sodium chlorate washes into the soil and or oxidises some organic matter in the soil and so is spent pretty quickly. You probably want the old version of Pathclear with Simazine in it - again now banned by some EU directive because it works too well and could be misused by amateurs. Regards, Martin Brown |
Best alternative to Sodium Chlorate?
On Wed, 02 Jun 2010 11:47:46 +0200, wrote:
Now that we can't get Sodium Chlorate what's the best (as in reasonably cheap + effective) alternative? I recently used up my last bit of Sodium Chlorate on one part of our large area of gravel and Pathclear on another area. The Pathclear seems to have been totally ineffective whereas the Sodium Chlorate worked well. So I'm not very impressed with Pathclear for a start. I *want* the weedkiller to stay in the ground for as long as possible so products that leave 'no residue' are most definitely not what I want. It's a big (like getting on for 1000 square metres) area of gravel so price is quite a major consideration. Have a look for Ammonium Sulphamate - used to be sold as Root-out stump killer and herbicide now sold as a compost accelerator! -- rbel |
Best alternative to Sodium Chlorate?
"Martin" wrote in message
... On 02/06/10 12:03, Martin Brown wrote: On 02/06/2010 10:47, wrote: Now that we can't get Sodium Chlorate what's the best (as in reasonably cheap + effective) alternative? You should probably have done a last time buy. You are not supposed to use it any more though since ISTR 10/5/2010. Not sure why the EU banned it - probably some halfwitted jobsworth interfering again. Maybe you should use google to find the reasons before going off at half cock? The reasons are given here http://www.dgsgardening.btinternet.c...l.htm#sodchlor There is very little information at that ref. More info is given he COMMISSION DECISION of 10 November 2008 concerning the non-inclusion of chlorate in Annex I to Council Directive 91/414/EEC and the withdrawal of authorisations for plant protection products containing that substance (notified under document number C(2008) 6587) (Text with EEA relevance) (2008/865/EC) "During the examination of this active substance by the Committee, it was concluded, taking into account comments received from Member States, that there are clear indications that it may be expected that it has harmful effects on human health, in particular taking into consideration the unacceptable exposure to operators taking into account the proposed provisional AOEL. In addition, information was insufficient to establish a definitive AOEL and to assess the leaching of a relevant metabolite to groundwater. Moreover, other concerns which were identified by the rapporteur Member States in its assessment report are included in the review report for the substance." Unfortunately I have been unable to find what the other concerns of the rapporteur (France) were. The EU reporting system is a mass of cross-referencing which leads you everywhere except where you want to be! -- Jeff |
Best alternative to Sodium Chlorate?
On 02/06/2010 20:32, Jeff Layman wrote:
"Martin" wrote in message ... On 02/06/10 12:03, Martin Brown wrote: On 02/06/2010 10:47, wrote: Now that we can't get Sodium Chlorate what's the best (as in reasonably cheap + effective) alternative? You should probably have done a last time buy. You are not supposed to use it any more though since ISTR 10/5/2010. Not sure why the EU banned it - probably some halfwitted jobsworth interfering again. Maybe you should use google to find the reasons before going off at half cock? The reasons are given here http://www.dgsgardening.btinternet.c...l.htm#sodchlor There is very little information at that ref. More info is given he COMMISSION DECISION of 10 November 2008 concerning the non-inclusion of chlorate in Annex I to Council Directive 91/414/EEC and the withdrawal of authorisations for plant protection products containing that substance (notified under document number C(2008) 6587) (Text with EEA relevance) (2008/865/EC) "During the examination of this active substance by the Committee, it was concluded, taking into account comments received from Member States, that there are clear indications that it may be expected that it has harmful effects on human health, in particular taking into consideration the unacceptable exposure to operators taking into account the proposed provisional AOEL. In addition, information was insufficient to establish a definitive AOEL and to assess the leaching of a relevant metabolite to groundwater. Moreover, other concerns which were identified by the rapporteur Member States in its assessment report are included in the review report for the substance." Unfortunately I have been unable to find what the other concerns of the rapporteur (France) were. The EU reporting system is a mass of cross-referencing which leads you everywhere except where you want to be! You miss-spelled "mess" as "mass". :( Rapporteur "I was drunk at the time I don't really remember.". I expect the EU reporting system is modelled on the Mickeysoft help system which defines HELP as: he: (n) the masculine pronoun LP: (n) obsolete black vinyl sound recording disc with diameter 25cm Usually it is something insane like they want a hundred dogs and rabbits dosed in the eye with it before signing off the approval. Since there is no big money to be made selling sodium chlorate noone will pay for the testing. That is how they zapped ammonium sulphamate but ISTR it was the thicko Irish rapporteur who was responsible. I expect in other EU countries you can still buy all these banned chemicals. Only the UK takes these rules seriously. When I lived in Belgium they were still selling 40% HF in garden centres as "glass cleaner" to the general public. Wounds from that stuff never heal. Concentrated mineral acids were on the supermarket shelves! Regards, Martin Brown |
Best alternative to Sodium Chlorate?
In article , Pete
writes Glyphosate is the stuff you need. It will kill all but the broadest leafed stuff at one application. It works by foliar contact so your dream of "it staying in the ground " will remain a dream ! It comes in five litre concentrate form from the "locked away section" at about £40, so you will need a knapsack or similar sprayer. Regards Pete No Pete i think the OP like many of us also wants to stop seedlings from stuff like sycamores from germinating in the gravel as well. It's no good killing the stuff that's there only to find that three weeks later you have another crop of tree seedlings etc.! -- Janet Tweedy Dalmatian Telegraph http://www.lancedal.demon.co.uk |
Best alternative to Sodium Chlorate?
Martin Brown wrote:
On 02/06/2010 14:58, wrote: David in wrote: On 02/06/2010 11:47, wrote: Now that we can't get Sodium Chlorate what's the best (as in reasonably cheap + effective) alternative? I recently used up my last bit of Sodium Chlorate on one part of our large area of gravel and Pathclear on another area. The Pathclear seems to have been totally ineffective whereas the Sodium Chlorate worked well. So I'm not very impressed with Pathclear for a start. I *want* the weedkiller to stay in the ground for as long as possible so products that leave 'no residue' are most definitely not what I want. It's a big (like getting on for 1000 square metres) area of gravel so price is quite a major consideration. My gravel drive is something like 300 metres long. I've used Sodium Chlorate and I've used Glypohsate. Glyphosate worked out cheaper! One of those five litre tubs of concentrate is expensive but it lasts a very long time. The sodium chlorate was no better at killing weeds and new ones popped up soon after it rained anyway, so it didn't seem to have a long lasting effect. During Summer I spray the drive every couple of months. Just don't use Roundup - it is a very expensive way of buying generic glyphosate. "Every couple of months" seems very frequent to me. I've got our gravel pretty well dosed with sodium chlorate and it seems to be fairly inhospitable to new growth. The trouble with using just glyphosate is that it has virtually no residual effect so (as you describe) isn't very long lasting. Sodium chlorate is pretty soluble though and tends to wash downhill. You must have put a heck of a lot on if it lasts longer term or live somewhere very very dry! East Anglia is pretty dry and the ground under our gravel is fairly solid and impermeable. ... and what's "downhill"? :-) -- Chris Green |
Best alternative to Sodium Chlorate?
Jeff Layman wrote:
"Martin" wrote in message ... On 02/06/10 12:03, Martin Brown wrote: On 02/06/2010 10:47, wrote: Now that we can't get Sodium Chlorate what's the best (as in reasonably cheap + effective) alternative? You should probably have done a last time buy. You are not supposed to use it any more though since ISTR 10/5/2010. Not sure why the EU banned it - probably some halfwitted jobsworth interfering again. Maybe you should use google to find the reasons before going off at half cock? The reasons are given here http://www.dgsgardening.btinternet.c...l.htm#sodchlor There is very little information at that ref. More info is given he COMMISSION DECISION of 10 November 2008 concerning the non-inclusion of chlorate in Annex I to Council Directive 91/414/EEC and the withdrawal of authorisations for plant protection products containing that substance (notified under document number C(2008) 6587) (Text with EEA relevance) (2008/865/EC) "During the examination of this active substance by the Committee, it was concluded, taking into account comments received from Member States, that there are clear indications that it may be expected that it has harmful effects on human health, in particular taking into consideration the unacceptable exposure to operators taking into account the proposed provisional AOEL. In addition, information was insufficient to establish a definitive AOEL and to assess the leaching of a relevant metabolite to groundwater. Moreover, other concerns which were identified by the rapporteur Member States in its assessment report are included in the review report for the substance." Unfortunately I have been unable to find what the other concerns of the rapporteur (France) were. The EU reporting system is a mass of cross-referencing which leads you everywhere except where you want to be! That's the whole purpose of it. The system is designed like a sponge out of which laws ooze, but whose provenance is basically impossible to determine. Welcome to post-democracy... Ian |
Best alternative to Sodium Chlorate?
On 03/06/10 01:32, Ian B wrote:
Jeff Layman wrote: "Martin" wrote in message ... On 02/06/10 12:03, Martin Brown wrote: On 02/06/2010 10:47, wrote: Now that we can't get Sodium Chlorate what's the best (as in reasonably cheap + effective) alternative? You should probably have done a last time buy. You are not supposed to use it any more though since ISTR 10/5/2010. Not sure why the EU banned it - probably some halfwitted jobsworth interfering again. Maybe you should use google to find the reasons before going off at half cock? The reasons are given here http://www.dgsgardening.btinternet.c...l.htm#sodchlor There is very little information at that ref. Did you read it? It is highly toxic to humans and animals breaking down red blood cells, sterilises the ground and persists 6 months to five years in the ground. Do your really want that getting into your water supply? |
Best alternative to Sodium Chlorate?
In article ,
Martin wrote: Did you read it? It is highly toxic to humans and animals breaking down red blood cells, sterilises the ground and persists 6 months to five years in the ground. Do your really want that getting into your water supply? I certainly don't want such extreme claims getting there! Bluntly, that's so misleading as to be tantamount to being twaddle. It's one of the ecologically safest horticultural chemicals because, while it's nasty when it is still around, it decomposes completely into totally harmless and widespread chemicals - i.e. common salt and combined oxygen. Regards, Nick Maclaren. |
Best alternative to Sodium Chlorate?
|
Best alternative to Sodium Chlorate?
In article ,
Martin wrote: Did you read it? It is highly toxic to humans and animals breaking down red blood cells, sterilises the ground and persists 6 months to five years in the ground. Do your really want that getting into your water supply? I certainly don't want such extreme claims getting there! Bluntly, that's so misleading as to be tantamount to being twaddle. It's one of the ecologically safest horticultural chemicals because, while it's nasty when it is still around, it decomposes completely into totally harmless and widespread chemicals - i.e. common salt and combined oxygen. So you may as well use common salt as people have suggested. Twaddle. That is NOT an effective weedkiller in the UK, as the rainfall is too high. Too much common salt in the ground water isn't a good thing. In places like the Netherlands it is a major problem. That's irrelevant. No plausible use of either sodium chlorate or common salt as a weedkiller will have a noticeable effect - even its much greater use for road de-icing doesn't. The problem in the Netherlands (and parts of East Angular) is seawater percolating in because of the low water table. I shall not follow up, as I suspect that you are trolling. Regards, Nick Maclaren. |
Best alternative to Sodium Chlorate?
On Thu, 3 Jun 2010 12:28:50 +0100 (BST), wrote:
In article , Martin wrote: Did you read it? It is highly toxic to humans and animals breaking down red blood cells, sterilises the ground and persists 6 months to five years in the ground. Do your really want that getting into your water supply? I certainly don't want such extreme claims getting there! Bluntly, that's so misleading as to be tantamount to being twaddle. It's one of the ecologically safest horticultural chemicals because, while it's nasty when it is still around, it decomposes completely into totally harmless and widespread chemicals - i.e. common salt and combined oxygen. So you may as well use common salt as people have suggested. Twaddle. That is NOT an effective weedkiller in the UK, as the rainfall is too high. Cooking salt keeps my path clear of weeds but it needs to be applied dry three or four times a year. The path is not pointed and so would be very likely to have weeds in the cracks. The salt gets washed away by the rain but that does not stop it working. Steve -- Neural Planner Software Ltd www.NPSL1.com EasyNN-plus. Neural Networks plus. www.easynn.com SwingNN. Forecast with Neural Networks. www.swingnn.com JustNN. Just Neural Networks. www.justnn.com |
Best alternative to Sodium Chlorate?
In article ,
Stephen Wolstenholme wrote: So you may as well use common salt as people have suggested. Twaddle. That is NOT an effective weedkiller in the UK, as the rainfall is too high. Cooking salt keeps my path clear of weeds but it needs to be applied dry three or four times a year. The path is not pointed and so would be very likely to have weeds in the cracks. The salt gets washed away by the rain but that does not stop it working. Yes, but it won't kill established weeds! Preventing small ones from establishing is relatively easy. Once they have their roots down, all it will do is to burn off the tops - even sodium chlorate isn't all that effective against established weeds. I tried salt, and found that it was pretty hopeless, but it is likely that its effectiveness will depend on conditions. Regards, Nick Maclaren. |
Best alternative to Sodium Chlorate?
In article ,
writes I certainly don't want such extreme claims getting there! Bluntly, that's so misleading as to be tantamount to being twaddle. It's one of the ecologically safest horticultural chemicals because, while it's nasty when it is still around, it decomposes completely into totally harmless and widespread chemicals - i.e. common salt and combined oxygen. AND what's more if it can move that far in the soil then everything around would be dead, which it isn't , You can pretty much water up to certain areas without affecting them at all! -- Janet Tweedy Dalmatian Telegraph http://www.lancedal.demon.co.uk |
Best alternative to Sodium Chlorate?
On 03/06/2010 12:40, Stephen Wolstenholme wrote:
On Thu, 3 Jun 2010 12:28:50 +0100 (BST), wrote: In , wrote: Did you read it? It is highly toxic to humans and animals breaking down red blood cells, sterilises the ground and persists 6 months to five years in the ground. Do your really want that getting into your water supply? I certainly don't want such extreme claims getting there! Bluntly, that's so misleading as to be tantamount to being twaddle. It's one of the ecologically safest horticultural chemicals because, while it's nasty when it is still around, it decomposes completely into totally harmless and widespread chemicals - i.e. common salt and combined oxygen. So you may as well use common salt as people have suggested. Twaddle. That is NOT an effective weedkiller in the UK, as the rainfall is too high. Cooking salt keeps my path clear of weeds but it needs to be applied dry three or four times a year. The path is not pointed and so would be very likely to have weeds in the cracks. The salt gets washed away by the rain but that does not stop it working. Grit rock salt would be cheaper and a heck of a lot more environmentally friendly. Do you have any idea how much additional energy goes into making food grade refined and recrystallised salt? Regards, Martin Brown |
Best alternative to Sodium Chlorate?
In article , writes
"Every couple of months" seems very frequent to me. I've got our gravel pretty well dosed with sodium chlorate and it seems to be fairly inhospitable to new growth. The trouble with using just glyphosate is that it has virtually no residual effect so (as you describe) isn't very long lasting. -- Chris Green Isn't Pathclear a season long weed suppressant? -- Janet Tweedy Dalmatian Telegraph http://www.lancedal.demon.co.uk |
Best alternative to Sodium Chlorate?
On Thu, 03 Jun 2010 17:38:49 +0100, Martin Brown
wrote: On 03/06/2010 12:40, Stephen Wolstenholme wrote: On Thu, 3 Jun 2010 12:28:50 +0100 (BST), wrote: Cooking salt keeps my path clear of weeds but it needs to be applied dry three or four times a year. The path is not pointed and so would be very likely to have weeds in the cracks. The salt gets washed away by the rain but that does not stop it working. Grit rock salt would be cheaper and a heck of a lot more environmentally friendly. Do you have any idea how much additional energy goes into making food grade refined and recrystallised salt? I used rock salt previously but for some reason it does not work as well as refined salt. It also leaves a bit of a mess on the path which I assume is all the insoluble part of the "rock". Rocksalt is great for gravel paths but not for stone paths. Steve -- Neural Planner Software Ltd www.NPSL1.com EasyNN-plus. Neural Networks plus. www.easynn.com SwingNN. Forecast with Neural Networks. www.swingnn.com JustNN. Just Neural Networks. www.justnn.com |
Best alternative to Sodium Chlorate?
"Martin" wrote in message
... On 03/06/10 01:32, Ian B wrote: Jeff Layman wrote: (snip) http://www.dgsgardening.btinternet.c...l.htm#sodchlor There is very little information at that ref. Did you read it? It is highly toxic to humans and animals breaking down red blood cells, sterilises the ground and persists 6 months to five years in the ground. Do your really want that getting into your water supply? Did I read what, my Norwegian friend? What you have quoted is more or less what it says at that ref in its entirety. It is a nonsensical summary. Ever heard of haemolysis? Water breaks down red blood cells if its "concentration" is too high (ie the concentration of salts is too low). Anyway, the effect of chlorate on erythrocyte membranes has been known for at least 25 years, so why the sudden ban? You might like to read this - part of a report to the Californian environmental authorities (http://oehha.ca.gov/water/pals/chlorate.html): "Human Toxicity Studies Lubbers and Bianchine (1984) studied the short-term effect of administration of chlorine dioxide and its metabolites, including chlorate, on human volunteers. Ten male subjects were administered 1,000 mL of water containing varying concentrations of sodium chlorate (range 0.01 - 2.4 ppm chlorate). The control group received deionized water. Treatments were divided into two 500 mL aliquots; administered four hours apart. The study involved a series of six treatments in 16 days, which was considered as a single time-dependent experiment. Blood and urine samples were collected from all study participants. No adverse physiological effects were identified, although there was some variation between the treatment group and the control group with regard to bilirubin and serum iron measurements. In a companion study, normal adult male subjects were administered 500 ml of a 5 ppm solution of chlorine dioxide, chlorite, or chlorate daily for 12 weeks (Lubbers et al., 1984a), corresponding to a dose of about 0.04 mg/kg. Physical examinations, collection of blood and urine samples for laboratory assays, and taste evaluations were conducted on a weekly basis during the treatment period and for eight weeks following cessation of the treatment. Any value for an individual subject that differed from the group mean by more than two standard deviations was noted. The authors reported that "no clinically important physiological effects" were observed. A small number of subjects yielded abnormal hemoglobin electrophoresis patterns, but these results were randomly distributed among the groups. In a third study, a small number of subjects with glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase deficiencies which might make them more susceptible to oxidative stress caused by the chlorine disinfectants was exposed to the same dose of chlorite daily for 12 weeks (Lubbers et al., 1982, 1984b). Some statistically significant trends in biochemical or physiological parameters (albumin/globulin ratio, thyroid hormone levels, mean corpuscular hemoglobin, and methemoglobin values) were observed, but were judged to be of no clinical significance. Chlorite and chlorate can be expected to have similar biochemical effects, but do not appear to be absorbed and distributed in the same fashion and are not interconvertible in vivo, according to the data from rat studies (Abdel-Rahman et al., 1979b, 1984a)." And what did the Californian authorities conclude from this? (Remember they are some of the most environmentally "keen" authorities anywhere!) They haven't banned chlorate: "OEHHA recommends an action level of 200 ug/L (ppb) chlorate based on the male rat data (rounded). We believe this level would be adequate to protect against any potential toxic effects in humans. This conclusion is supported by the human studies of Lubbers and coworkers, who found no effects in adult male humans with subchronic chlorate doses of 2.5 mg/day. This dose would correspond to a drinking water concentration of 1.25 ppm with a drinking water consumption of 2 L/day. The recommended action level is about one/sixth this no-observed-effect level." And as to your comment about the water supply, perhaps you can explain to me how a powerful oxidising agent remains stable in groundwater long enough to reach the water supply when there are so many reducing agents around which will inactivate it? -- Jeff |
Best alternative to Sodium Chlorate?
On 03/06/2010 17:44, Janet Tweedy wrote:
In article , writes "Every couple of months" seems very frequent to me. I've got our gravel pretty well dosed with sodium chlorate and it seems to be fairly inhospitable to new growth. The trouble with using just glyphosate is that it has virtually no residual effect so (as you describe) isn't very long lasting. -- Chris Green Isn't Pathclear a season long weed suppressant? It was in the good old days when it contained a potent and persistent active ingredient called Simazine. These days it is pretty ineffectual like and over priced knock down weedkiller. Again you can blame the EU. Regards, Martin Brown |
Best alternative to Sodium Chlorate?
On 04/06/10 10:28, Martin Brown wrote:
On 03/06/2010 17:44, Janet Tweedy wrote: In article , writes "Every couple of months" seems very frequent to me. I've got our gravel pretty well dosed with sodium chlorate and it seems to be fairly inhospitable to new growth. The trouble with using just glyphosate is that it has virtually no residual effect so (as you describe) isn't very long lasting. -- Chris Green Isn't Pathclear a season long weed suppressant? It was in the good old days when it contained a potent and persistent active ingredient called Simazine. These days it is pretty ineffectual like and over priced knock down weedkiller. Again you can blame the EU. You can also "blame" DEFRA. Don't let the Daily Mail drive your image of EU/DEFRA scientists. |
Best alternative to Sodium Chlorate?
Martin wrote:
On 04/06/10 10:28, Martin Brown wrote: On 03/06/2010 17:44, Janet Tweedy wrote: In article , writes "Every couple of months" seems very frequent to me. I've got our gravel pretty well dosed with sodium chlorate and it seems to be fairly inhospitable to new growth. The trouble with using just glyphosate is that it has virtually no residual effect so (as you describe) isn't very long lasting. -- Chris Green Isn't Pathclear a season long weed suppressant? It was in the good old days when it contained a potent and persistent active ingredient called Simazine. These days it is pretty ineffectual like and over priced knock down weedkiller. Again you can blame the EU. You can also "blame" DEFRA. Don't let the Daily Mail drive your image of EU/DEFRA scientists. It's all part of the same system; the provincial governments are now basically incorporated into the federal government, in the same way as local councils are basically just an arm of the provincial government. Each province's bureaucracies are a local arm of the federal one. You can't draw a distinction. The major problem with the corporatist/technocratic system that has developed over the past decades is its unaccountability, which is there by design. A law is passed because some group of scientists/academics/activists/crats decided it should be passed; it's hard to tell where the laws have come from and there is little that citizens can do to stop them unless they can organise an activist group- a major undertaking- *and* get it accepted into the technocratic system such that its voice can actually be heard. Since getting accepted basically means agreeing with the system itself, it is hard for contrary voices to have any effect. You don't have to be a Daily Mail reader to disapprove of an undemocratic, unaccountable political system. The fact that the 'crats may believe they are making the right decisions on behalf of us little people doesn't make that the right way to run a continent. Ian |
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