On Sun, 29 May 2011 Janet wrote:

Contrary to your claim, website forums do not operate the same way as
usenet groups so it's completely misleading to say urg matches the
internet definition of a "forum".

I didn't say that it was an Internet definition. I said that, in a wider
definition, it is a forum. And so it is. A forum is where discussion
takes place.

Usenet is in the
public domain so no theft, intellectual or otherwise, is taking place.

You need to check copyright legislation. If A acquires B's usenet post
and sells it as X's own for commercial gain they have breached B's
copyright in law. And that has happened in this group.

Well I don't know about Garden Alley but Garden Banter is certainly not
selling access to the newsgroups. I haven't subscribed to Garden Banter
but I can access urg without paying.

The more we argue about our "rights" the more these sites will endeavour
to prove that we have none.

Hardly. Authors' rights are what prompted changes in Googlegroups and
Gardenbanter's use of usenet posts.

In the case of urg there's not a chance. People don't have to go via
Garden Banter/Alley, even if they have to pay to get them (which, in the
case of GB they don't). Since urg is available on google groups and
usenet free of charge no-one *has* to pay to receive it.

David

--
David Rance writing from Caversham, Reading, UK
http://rance.org.uk

On Sun, 29 May 2011 Stewart Robert Hinsley wrote:

Here it is. I think it shows the mischief that can be done by
malicious postings appearing to emanate from urg or its members but I
have no idea if this is the only example because I haven't gone
hunting. Read the paras from Binaries onwards:
http://www.gardenbanter.co.uk/united...r-uk-rec-garde
ning.html

That isn't a case of a post to u.r.g. being altered (on GardenBanter).
That was a troll "parody" of the charter that was posted on u.r.g.

That's an even better summary of what I was trying to say!

David

--
David Rance writing from Caversham, Reading, UK
http://rance.org.uk

On Sun, 29 May 2011 Janet wrote:

GardenAlley does the exact opposite. It conceals the existence of
uysenet and urg and has actually renamed urg to make it look like a forum
on its website :-(

Can you give me a url for Garden Alley? I've tried googling but can't
find it.

David

--
David Rance writing from Caversham, Reading, UK
http://rance.org.uk

David Rance wrote:
On Sun, 29 May 2011 Janet wrote:

GardenAlley does the exact opposite. It conceals the existence of
uysenet and urg and has actually renamed urg to make it look like a
forum on its website :-(

Can you give me a url for Garden Alley? I've tried googling but can't
find it.


er,

www.gardenalley.com





Ian

In message , David Rance
writes
You need to check copyright legislation. If A acquires B's usenet post
and sells it as X's own for commercial gain they have breached B's
copyright in law. And that has happened in this group.

Well I don't know about Garden Alley but Garden Banter is certainly not
selling access to the newsgroups. I haven't subscribed to Garden Banter
but I can access urg without paying.

Garden Banter is, I assume, selling advertising, and using u.r.g.
material to attract eyeballs. I believe that falls into the remit of
copyright law, and that Garden Banter operate under the implicit
license.
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley

"Janet" wrote in message
...
In article ,
says...

On Sun, 29 May 2011 Janet wrote:

GardenAlley does the exact opposite. It conceals the existence of
uysenet and urg and has actually renamed urg to make it look like a
forum
on its website :-(

Can you give me a url for Garden Alley? I've tried googling but can't
find it.


http://www.gardenalley.com/

Janet

I would imagine gardenbanter and gardenalley are rubbing their hands with
all this publicity ;-))

Who started the subject? An urgler, or a GB or GA subscriber in disguise?

Mike

--

....................................
It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice.
....................................

Janet wrote:

Gardenalley is a commercial enterprise using urg posts ( under a
different name of origin) to populate their website so they can sell
webspace to advertisers.


This taps into the whole question of the "free" ethos on the internet;
somebody, somewhere has to pay for everything. You get these situations
where people are providing value and others are earning from it; the
question of ethics becomes problematic. The people who foolishly provided
free content for Arianna Huffington's website didn't get upset until she
sold it for 300 million smackeroonies. I sometimes post free art onto
websites, but I get publicity out of that (and they get to sell ad space).

I think it's a question here of misrepresentation. GA are in my view
pretending, or implying anyway, to be something they aren't. I can't really
prove that what they're doing is wrong, but it just doesn't feel right to
me. That's more on behalf of others than myself, because as everyone knows I
know sod all about gardening and mostly only post to ask questions, while
gaining from reading the posts of others.

They could at least just acknowledge where the heck their content is coming
from. It's not too much to ask, is it?


Ian

"Ian B" wrote in message
...
Janet wrote:

Gardenalley is a commercial enterprise using urg posts ( under a
different name of origin) to populate their website so they can sell
webspace to advertisers.


This taps into the whole question of the "free" ethos on the internet;
somebody, somewhere has to pay for everything. You get these situations
where people are providing value and others are earning from it; the
question of ethics becomes problematic. The people who foolishly provided
free content for Arianna Huffington's website didn't get upset until she
sold it for 300 million smackeroonies. I sometimes post free art onto
websites, but I get publicity out of that (and they get to sell ad space).

I think it's a question here of misrepresentation. GA are in my view
pretending, or implying anyway, to be something they aren't. I can't
really prove that what they're doing is wrong, but it just doesn't feel
right to me. That's more on behalf of others than myself, because as
everyone knows I know sod all about gardening and mostly only post to ask
questions, while gaining from reading the posts of others.

They could at least just acknowledge where the heck their content is
coming from. It's not too much to ask, is it?


Ian


So, as I have said before, if you are paranoid, as many are, about your
posts on urg being copied onto gardenbanter or any other gardening, or even
non gardening forums, don't post on urg.

Where is the difficulty there?

Mike


--

....................................
It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice.
....................................

'Mike' wrote:
"Ian B" wrote in message
...
Janet wrote:

Gardenalley is a commercial enterprise using urg posts ( under a
different name of origin) to populate their website so they can sell
webspace to advertisers.


This taps into the whole question of the "free" ethos on the
internet; somebody, somewhere has to pay for everything. You get
these situations where people are providing value and others are
earning from it; the question of ethics becomes problematic. The
people who foolishly provided free content for Arianna Huffington's
website didn't get upset until she sold it for 300 million
smackeroonies. I sometimes post free art onto websites, but I get
publicity out of that (and they get to sell ad space). I think it's a
question here of misrepresentation. GA are in my view
pretending, or implying anyway, to be something they aren't. I can't
really prove that what they're doing is wrong, but it just doesn't
feel right to me. That's more on behalf of others than myself,
because as everyone knows I know sod all about gardening and mostly
only post to ask questions, while gaining from reading the posts of
others. They could at least just acknowledge where the heck their content
is
coming from. It's not too much to ask, is it?


Ian


So, as I have said before, if you are paranoid, as many are, about
your posts on urg being copied onto gardenbanter or any other
gardening, or even non gardening forums, don't post on urg.

Where is the difficulty there?



That's a bit silly, isn't it Mike?


Ian

On Sun, 29 May 2011 Ian B wrote:

I think it's a question here of misrepresentation. GA are in my view
pretending, or implying anyway, to be something they aren't. I can't really
prove that what they're doing is wrong, but it just doesn't feel right to
me. That's more on behalf of others than myself, because as everyone knows I
know sod all about gardening and mostly only post to ask questions, while
gaining from reading the posts of others.

They could at least just acknowledge where the heck their content is coming
from. It's not too much to ask, is it?

Whether or not they acknowledge the source of their material as being
uk.rec.gardening is to a large extent unimportant for the simple reason
that they (say that they) do not edit posts. Thus the weekly Welcome
message states quite clearly that the origin of these messages is
uk.rec.gardening.

When I have a moment (probably sometime this week) I'll add something to
that message to make it even clearer.

Meanwhile I think that the arguments are now going round in circles.
I've made my own standpoint clear enough and won't engage further in
this thread simply for the sake of having the last word.

Night, night, everyone! :-)

David

--
David Rance writing from Caversham, Reading, UK
http://rance.org.uk

"Ian B" wrote in message
...
'Mike' wrote:
"Ian B" wrote in message
...
Janet wrote:

Gardenalley is a commercial enterprise using urg posts ( under a
different name of origin) to populate their website so they can sell
webspace to advertisers.


This taps into the whole question of the "free" ethos on the
internet; somebody, somewhere has to pay for everything. You get
these situations where people are providing value and others are
earning from it; the question of ethics becomes problematic. The
people who foolishly provided free content for Arianna Huffington's
website didn't get upset until she sold it for 300 million
smackeroonies. I sometimes post free art onto websites, but I get
publicity out of that (and they get to sell ad space). I think it's a
question here of misrepresentation. GA are in my view
pretending, or implying anyway, to be something they aren't. I can't
really prove that what they're doing is wrong, but it just doesn't
feel right to me. That's more on behalf of others than myself,
because as everyone knows I know sod all about gardening and mostly
only post to ask questions, while gaining from reading the posts of
others. They could at least just acknowledge where the heck their
content is
coming from. It's not too much to ask, is it?


Ian


So, as I have said before, if you are paranoid, as many are, about
your posts on urg being copied onto gardenbanter or any other
gardening, or even non gardening forums, don't post on urg.

Where is the difficulty there?



That's a bit silly, isn't it Mike?


Ian


There used to be a programme long long ago with the title on the lines of
"The truth is stranger than fiction" and quite often the truth is silly.

If you don't like a thing happening to you, don't do it!! Where is that
advice silly?

As I asked above, where is the difficulty in that? Speakers set too high?

Mike


--

....................................
It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice.
....................................

"Sacha" wrote in message
...
On 2011-05-29 17:33:51 +0100, Jake Nospam@invalid said:

On Sun, 29 May 2011 17:08:46 +0100, Sacha wrote:

Who would write an apparent urg post to GB stating that
advertising here is to be used in such a way and that 18 lines sigs are
acceptable unless they hoped to harm this group and upset its members?
Can you think of anyone?

Fact is that there are people out there who will do this sort of thing
simply for their own amusement; not t he fault of GB or GA.
snip

I agree entirely that there are people who will do this for the reasons
you give. OTOH, GB and GA are not actually *forced* to nick our posts,
whereas we appear to be unable to prevent them from doing so. And that is
my point really. It leaves the people who post to urg open to all kinds
of abuse by fraud simply so GB and GA can exist at all.

--
Sacha
South Devon


What part of ........

"Start your own forum where people have to subscribe to be members, you
then have control over the nasties, AND, post a warning as a stickie that
any post re-posted on ANY OTHER forum or newsgroup and you will sue."

do you not understand?

Mike



--

....................................
It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice.
....................................

"Martin" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 29 May 2011 22:30:35 +0100, "Ian B"
wrote:

'Mike' wrote:

So, as I have said before, if you are paranoid, as many are, about
your posts on urg being copied onto gardenbanter or any other
gardening, or even non gardening forums, don't post on urg.

Where is the difficulty there?



That's a bit silly, isn't it Mike?

but typical of him.
--

Martin


Doesn't the obvious answer upset some people?

:-(((

Mike



--

....................................
Remember, a statue has never been erected to a critic.
....................................

"Sacha" wrote in message
...
On 2011-05-30 10:34:03 +0100, "'Mike'" said:



"Martin" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 29 May 2011 22:30:35 +0100, "Ian B"
wrote:

'Mike' wrote:

So, as I have said before, if you are paranoid, as many are, about
your posts on urg being copied onto gardenbanter or any other
gardening, or even non gardening forums, don't post on urg.

Where is the difficulty there?



That's a bit silly, isn't it Mike?

but typical of him.
--

Martin


Doesn't the obvious answer upset some people?

:-(((

Mike

Unhappily, the obvious answer is that you have a long-standing grudge
against urg and urglers for not welcoming your endless boasting and
self-promotion, or your advertising of non-related garden activities. It
would suit you very well to see urg and urglers falsified in other forums.
It's to be hoped GardenBanter, GardenAlley and all similar sites are also
posting the messages here which show you for what you are with regard to
urg and its members and the vendetta you've been impotently waging for
years.
--
Sacha
South Devon



and yet again, a personal tirade, just to post a bit of hatred and totally
missing the very simple answer to a complaint you have had for years.

As you are so strongly against these other forums copying posts from urg,
answer me the simple question, without resorting to a personal tirade again,
why don't you start your own forum which has to have members sign in, which
of course you would be delighted to refuse access to me wouldn't you, and
put a notice up threatening to sue anyone pinching yours and any member's
postings?

Do you think you can answer that without raising your hackles again? Just
keep the personal attack out of the answer.

Kind regards

Mike

--

....................................
Remember, a statue has never been erected to a critic.
....................................

"Sacha" wrote in message
...
On 2011-05-30 11:47:54 +0100, "'Mike'" said:


"Sacha" wrote in message
...
On 2011-05-30 10:34:03 +0100, "'Mike'"
said:



"Martin" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 29 May 2011 22:30:35 +0100, "Ian B"
wrote:

'Mike' wrote:

So, as I have said before, if you are paranoid, as many are, about
your posts on urg being copied onto gardenbanter or any other
gardening, or even non gardening forums, don't post on urg.

Where is the difficulty there?



That's a bit silly, isn't it Mike?

but typical of him.
--

Martin


Doesn't the obvious answer upset some people?

:-(((

Mike

Unhappily, the obvious answer is that you have a long-standing grudge
against urg and urglers for not welcoming your endless boasting and
self-promotion, or your advertising of non-related garden activities.
It
would suit you very well to see urg and urglers falsified in other
forums.
It's to be hoped GardenBanter, GardenAlley and all similar sites are
also
posting the messages here which show you for what you are with regard to
urg and its members and the vendetta you've been impotently waging for
years.
--
Sacha
South Devon



and yet again, a personal tirade, just to post a bit of hatred and
totally
missing the very simple answer to a complaint you have had for years.

As you are so strongly against these other forums copying posts from urg,
answer me the simple question, without resorting to a personal tirade
again,
why don't you start your own forum which has to have members sign in,
which
of course you would be delighted to refuse access to me wouldn't you, and
put a notice up threatening to sue anyone pinching yours and any member's
postings?

Do you think you can answer that without raising your hackles again? Just
keep the personal attack out of the answer.

Kind regards

Mike

Don't be ridiculous. You've attacked and ridiculed me and others for a
very long time. That was no personal attack, it was a basic fact. You've
got a long record of doing anything you can to either disrupt or rubbish
this group. You have a long record, too, of making personal attacks on
the lives of others which have nothing to do with their postings here.
I'm sure it would suit you if I (and a few others) left here but unhappily
for you, that isn't going to happen.
--
Sacha
South Devon



Yes.

Right again wasn't I?

Another personal attack and no answer :-((

Showing your true colours.

Kindest possible regards

Mike




--

....................................
Remember, a statue has never been erected to a critic.
....................................