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Toxicity of soapy water and "Arbrex seal and heal"
I am trying to graft green stems (this year's seedlings) of alder onto
green (this year's growth) of the side-branches of adult alder trees. I have been using Hellermann sleeves (thank you to whoever suggested them) Using the Hellerman sleeves I made grafts which looked really satifactory. But they all died! What is wrong? One cause might be poor workmanship and wrong graft design, but I think I have brought the right surfaces together. When else might it be? I have thought of 2 possibilities :- * The Hellermann sleeves are very sticky on the prongs of the tool so I soaked them overnight in soapy water (the soap is ordinary washing soap) to make them easier to handle. The sleeves were still full of water when I put them over the stock. These pieces of scion are 2-3 cm long, 2 -3 mm diamter, and green, and the edge of the cut surfaces maybe exposed to the soapy water. But surely soapy water is harmless? Or is it? * I have putting "Arbrex seal and heal" generously on the stock at the bottom end of the Hellermann sleeves, and on the cut ends of the petiole and the scion upper end. Now I look more carefully at the label of the "Arbrex seal and heal" I see it says "contains ethanol and colophony, keep out of reach of children". Maybe it is the cause of my problems? And if it is, what should I used instead? Michael Bell -- |
Toxicity of soapy water and "Arbrex seal and heal"
In message
Charlie Pridham wrote: In article , says... I am trying to graft green stems (this year's seedlings) of alder onto green (this year's growth) of the side-branches of adult alder trees. I have been using Hellermann sleeves (thank you to whoever suggested them) Using the Hellerman sleeves I made grafts which looked really satifactory. But they all died! What is wrong? One cause might be poor workmanship and wrong graft design, but I think I have brought the right surfaces together. When else might it be? I have thought of 2 possibilities :- * The Hellermann sleeves are very sticky on the prongs of the tool so I soaked them overnight in soapy water (the soap is ordinary washing soap) to make them easier to handle. The sleeves were still full of water when I put them over the stock. These pieces of scion are 2-3 cm long, 2 -3 mm diamter, and green, and the edge of the cut surfaces maybe exposed to the soapy water. But surely soapy water is harmless? Or is it? * I have putting "Arbrex seal and heal" generously on the stock at the bottom end of the Hellermann sleeves, and on the cut ends of the petiole and the scion upper end. Now I look more carefully at the label of the "Arbrex seal and heal" I see it says "contains ethanol and colophony, keep out of reach of children". Maybe it is the cause of my problems? And if it is, what should I used instead? Michael Bell Timing, tree grafting is often carried out in late winter and again in July August after the trees finish growth, but I have no first hand experiance of tree grafting and can find nothing relivant for Alder. Most grafts are sealed with grafting wax This is the time when the seedling have reached workable size and the tree shoots are actively growing, and next year's catkins and cones are formed at the end of July, which is why I want to do this now. I am going to buy grafting wax, this is an outdoors job, a thermos flask of wax might not be too practicable and too much hot wax on a small graft might be too much. Is there anything available without these problems? Michael Bell -- |
Toxicity of soapy water and "Arbrex seal and heal" and using Tenax
In message
Michael Bell wrote: In message Charlie Pridham wrote: In article , says... I am trying to graft green stems (this year's seedlings) of alder onto green (this year's growth) of the side-branches of adult alder trees. I have been using Hellermann sleeves (thank you to whoever suggested them) Using the Hellerman sleeves I made grafts which looked really satifactory. But they all died! What is wrong? One cause might be poor workmanship and wrong graft design, but I think I have brought the right surfaces together. When else might it be? I have thought of 2 possibilities :- * The Hellermann sleeves are very sticky on the prongs of the tool so I soaked them overnight in soapy water (the soap is ordinary washing soap) to make them easier to handle. The sleeves were still full of water when I put them over the stock. These pieces of scion are 2-3 cm long, 2 -3 mm diamter, and green, and the edge of the cut surfaces maybe exposed to the soapy water. But surely soapy water is harmless? Or is it? * I have putting "Arbrex seal and heal" generously on the stock at the bottom end of the Hellermann sleeves, and on the cut ends of the petiole and the scion upper end. Now I look more carefully at the label of the "Arbrex seal and heal" I see it says "contains ethanol and colophony, keep out of reach of children". Maybe it is the cause of my problems? And if it is, what should I used instead? Michael Bell Timing, tree grafting is often carried out in late winter and again in July August after the trees finish growth, but I have no first hand experiance of tree grafting and can find nothing relivant for Alder. Most grafts are sealed with grafting wax This is the time when the seedling have reached workable size and the tree shoots are actively growing, and next year's catkins and cones are formed at the end of July, which is why I want to do this now. I am going to buy grafting wax, this is an outdoors job, a thermos flask of wax might not be too practicable and too much hot wax on a small graft might be too much. Is there anything available without these problems? Michael Bell After an afternoon of trying out the Tenax wax, it didn't work very well. The instructions for Tenax say "use when soft", but that doesn't work very well, it goes crumbly straight away and doesn't flow round the things I want to seal. So, then should I use it much hotter, when it is liquid and it will flow round the things I want to seal and as contact cools it, it will solidify. Is that the way it is meant to work? But will the heat damage the bits I want to seal? How do others use Tenax? Taking it to the limit, I can imagine myself building up a "Tenax samovar". A bit over the top? I normally enclose the graft in "lay-flat tubing" (available in rolls from all sorts of suppliers) to keep the moisture in. I slit a short length at either side and wrap it round the main branch and staple it with an ordinary office stapler. AN EXTRA TRICK I have developed is not to cut off all the lower leaves, but to leave the bottom one on (usually the smallest) and include it in the "lay-flat tubing enclosure" so that there is a supply of moisture inside. I've only done this the last day or two, and droplets form on the plastic around it, so it must be doing some good. I don't know yet whether it will keep the grafts alive. All feedback and comments welcome. Michael Bell -- |
Toxicity of soapy water and "Arbrex seal and heal"
On Jun 25, 1:43*pm, Michael Bell wrote:
In message * * * * * Charlie Pridham wrote: In article , says... I am trying to graft green stems (this year's seedlings) of alder onto green (this year's growth) of the side-branches of adult alder trees. I have been using Hellermann sleeves (thank you to whoever suggested them) Using the Hellerman sleeves I made grafts which looked really satifactory. But they all died! What is wrong? One cause might be poor workmanship and wrong graft design, but I think I have brought the right surfaces together. When else might it be? I have thought of 2 possibilities :- * The Hellermann sleeves are very sticky on the prongs of the tool so I soaked them overnight in soapy water (the soap is ordinary washing soap) to make them easier to handle. The sleeves were still full of water when I put them over the stock. These pieces of scion are 2-3 cm long, 2 -3 mm diamter, and green, and the edge of the cut surfaces maybe exposed to the soapy water. But surely soapy water is harmless? Or is it? * I have putting "Arbrex seal and heal" generously on the stock at the bottom end of the Hellermann sleeves, and on the cut ends of the petiole and the scion upper end. Now I look more carefully at the label of the "Arbrex seal and heal" I see it says "contains ethanol and colophony, keep out of reach of children". Maybe it is the cause of my problems? And if it is, what should I used instead? Michael Bell Timing, tree grafting is often carried out in late winter and again in July August after the trees finish growth, but I have no first hand experiance of tree grafting and can find nothing relivant for Alder. Most grafts are sealed with grafting wax This is the time when the seedling have reached workable size and the tree shoots are actively growing, and next year's catkins and cones are formed at the end of July, which is why I want to do this now. I am going to buy grafting wax, this is an outdoors job, a thermos flask of wax might not be too practicable and too much hot wax on a small graft might be too much. Is there anything available without these problems? Michael Bell -- Try "budding" rather than grafting. |
Toxicity of soapy water and "Arbrex seal and heal"
In message
ups.com aquachimp wrote: On Jun 25, 1:43*pm, Michael Bell wrote: In message * * * * * Charlie Pridham wrote: In article , says... I am trying to graft green stems (this year's seedlings) of alder onto green (this year's growth) of the side-branches of adult alder trees. I have been using Hellermann sleeves (thank you to whoever suggested them) Using the Hellerman sleeves I made grafts which looked really satifactory. But they all died! What is wrong? One cause might be poor workmanship and wrong graft design, but I think I have brought the right surfaces together. When else might it be? I have thought of 2 possibilities :- * The Hellermann sleeves are very sticky on the prongs of the tool so I soaked them overnight in soapy water (the soap is ordinary washing soap) to make them easier to handle. The sleeves were still full of water when I put them over the stock. These pieces of scion are 2-3 cm long, 2 -3 mm diamter, and green, and the edge of the cut surfaces maybe exposed to the soapy water. But surely soapy water is harmless? Or is it? * I have putting "Arbrex seal and heal" generously on the stock at the bottom end of the Hellermann sleeves, and on the cut ends of the petiole and the scion upper end. Now I look more carefully at the label of the "Arbrex seal and heal" I see it says "contains ethanol and colophony, keep out of reach of children". Maybe it is the cause of my problems? And if it is, what should I used instead? Michael Bell Timing, tree grafting is often carried out in late winter and again in July August after the trees finish growth, but I have no first hand experiance of tree grafting and can find nothing relivant for Alder. Most grafts are sealed with grafting wax This is the time when the seedling have reached workable size and the tree shoots are actively growing, and next year's catkins and cones are formed at the end of July, which is why I want to do this now. I am going to buy grafting wax, this is an outdoors job, a thermos flask of wax might not be too practicable and too much hot wax on a small graft might be too much. Is there anything available without these problems? Michael Bell -- Try "budding" rather than grafting. Do you mean taking an axillary bud from a seedling and putting it onto LAST YEAR's growth? I could try it. Michael Bell -- |
Toxicity of soapy water and "Arbrex seal and heal"
On Jun 26, 8:09*am, Michael Bell wrote:
In message ups.com * * * * * aquachimp wrote: On Jun 25, 1:43 pm, Michael Bell wrote: In message Charlie Pridham wrote: In article , says... I am trying to graft green stems (this year's seedlings) of alder onto green (this year's growth) of the side-branches of adult alder trees.. I have been using Hellermann sleeves (thank you to whoever suggested them) Using the Hellerman sleeves I made grafts which looked really satifactory. But they all died! What is wrong? One cause might be poor workmanship and wrong graft design, but I think I have brought the right surfaces together. When else might it be? I have thought of 2 possibilities :- * The Hellermann sleeves are very sticky on the prongs of the tool so I soaked them overnight in soapy water (the soap is ordinary washing soap) to make them easier to handle. The sleeves were still full of water when I put them over the stock. These pieces of scion are 2-3 cm long, 2 -3 mm diamter, and green, and the edge of the cut surfaces maybe exposed to the soapy water. But surely soapy water is harmless? Or is it? * I have putting "Arbrex seal and heal" generously on the stock at the bottom end of the Hellermann sleeves, and on the cut ends of the petiole and the scion upper end. Now I look more carefully at the label of the "Arbrex seal and heal" I see it says "contains ethanol and colophony, keep out of reach of children". Maybe it is the cause of my problems? And if it is, what should I used instead? Michael Bell Timing, tree grafting is often carried out in late winter and again in July August after the trees finish growth, but I have no first hand experiance of tree grafting and can find nothing relivant for Alder. Most grafts are sealed with grafting wax This is the time when the seedling have reached workable size and the tree shoots are actively growing, and next year's catkins and cones are formed at the end of July, which is why I want to do this now. I am going to buy grafting wax, this is an outdoors job, a thermos flask of wax might not be too practicable and too much hot wax on a small graft might be too much. Is there anything available without these problems? Michael Bell -- Try "budding" rather than grafting. Do you mean taking an axillary bud from a seedling and putting it onto LAST YEAR's growth? I could try it. Michael Bell -- a more mature bud would be nice,.. long shot perhaps, but I'd reckon a better chance then grafting right now. (as CP said.."Timing...") |
Toxicity of soapy water and "Arbrex seal and heal"
In message
ups.com aquachimp wrote: On Jun 26, 8:09*am, Michael Bell wrote: In message ups.com * * * * * aquachimp wrote: On Jun 25, 1:43 pm, Michael Bell wrote: In message Charlie Pridham wrote: In article , says... I am trying to graft green stems (this year's seedlings) of alder onto green (this year's growth) of the side-branches of adult alder trees. I have been using Hellermann sleeves (thank you to whoever suggested them) Using the Hellerman sleeves I made grafts which looked really satifactory. But they all died! What is wrong? One cause might be poor workmanship and wrong graft design, but I think I have brought the right surfaces together. When else might it be? I have thought of 2 possibilities :- * The Hellermann sleeves are very sticky on the prongs of the tool so I soaked them overnight in soapy water (the soap is ordinary washing soap) to make them easier to handle. The sleeves were still full of water when I put them over the stock. These pieces of scion are 2-3 cm long, 2 -3 mm diamter, and green, and the edge of the cut surfaces maybe exposed to the soapy water. But surely soapy water is harmless? Or is it? * I have putting "Arbrex seal and heal" generously on the stock at the bottom end of the Hellermann sleeves, and on the cut ends of the petiole and the scion upper end. Now I look more carefully at the label of the "Arbrex seal and heal" I see it says "contains ethanol and colophony, keep out of reach of children". Maybe it is the cause of my problems? And if it is, what should I used instead? Michael Bell Timing, tree grafting is often carried out in late winter and again in July August after the trees finish growth, but I have no first hand experiance of tree grafting and can find nothing relivant for Alder. Most grafts are sealed with grafting wax This is the time when the seedling have reached workable size and the tree shoots are actively growing, and next year's catkins and cones are formed at the end of July, which is why I want to do this now. I am going to buy grafting wax, this is an outdoors job, a thermos flask of wax might not be too practicable and too much hot wax on a small graft might be too much. Is there anything available without these problems? Michael Bell -- Try "budding" rather than grafting. Do you mean taking an axillary bud from a seedling and putting it onto LAST YEAR's growth? I could try it. Michael Bell -- a more mature bud would be nice,.. long shot perhaps, but I'd reckon a better chance then grafting right now. (as CP said.."Timing...") Remember the objective is get catkins and cones from last year's seeds/this year's seedlings. But good news. I though all my previous grafts had died, but now I look at some, they have grown, though very slowly. Michael Bell -- |
Toxicity of soapy water and Vaseline?
In message
Michael Bell wrote: In message ups.com aquachimp wrote: On Jun 26, 8:09*am, Michael Bell wrote: In message ups.com * * * * * aquachimp wrote: On Jun 25, 1:43 pm, Michael Bell wrote: In message Charlie Pridham wrote: In article , says... I am trying to graft green stems (this year's seedlings) of alder onto green (this year's growth) of the side-branches of adult alder trees. I have been using Hellermann sleeves (thank you to whoever suggested them) Using the Hellerman sleeves I made grafts which looked really satifactory. But they all died! What is wrong? One cause might be poor workmanship and wrong graft design, but I think I have brought the right surfaces together. When else might it be? I have thought of 2 possibilities :- * The Hellermann sleeves are very sticky on the prongs of the tool so I soaked them overnight in soapy water (the soap is ordinary washing soap) to make them easier to handle. The sleeves were still full of water when I put them over the stock. These pieces of scion are 2-3 cm long, 2 -3 mm diamter, and green, and the edge of the cut surfaces maybe exposed to the soapy water. But surely soapy water is harmless? Or is it? * I have putting "Arbrex seal and heal" generously on the stock at the bottom end of the Hellermann sleeves, and on the cut ends of the petiole and the scion upper end. Now I look more carefully at the label of the "Arbrex seal and heal" I see it says "contains ethanol and colophony, keep out of reach of children". Maybe it is the cause of my problems? And if it is, what should I used instead? Michael Bell Timing, tree grafting is often carried out in late winter and again in July August after the trees finish growth, but I have no first hand experiance of tree grafting and can find nothing relivant for Alder. Most grafts are sealed with grafting wax This is the time when the seedling have reached workable size and the tree shoots are actively growing, and next year's catkins and cones are formed at the end of July, which is why I want to do this now. I am going to buy grafting wax, this is an outdoors job, a thermos flask of wax might not be too practicable and too much hot wax on a small graft might be too much. Is there anything available without these problems? Michael Bell -- Try "budding" rather than grafting. Do you mean taking an axillary bud from a seedling and putting it onto LAST YEAR's growth? I could try it. Michael Bell -- a more mature bud would be nice,.. long shot perhaps, but I'd reckon a better chance then grafting right now. (as CP said.."Timing...") Remember the objective is get catkins and cones from last year's seeds/this year's seedlings. But good news. I though all my previous grafts had died, but now I look at some, they have grown, though very slowly. Michael Bell Budding is a new technique to me, and in one afternoon I have not got it right. I am beginning to run out of seedlings to practice on. But I can use material from adult trees. Molten wax is damned awkward to use. It keeps setting before I can use it. Thinking around for other materials that are waterproof and definitely not-toxic, I hit on the idea of Vaseline. It's certainly waterproof, mechanical strength is not needed and I very much think non-toxic. It goes on babie's bottoms! Michael Bell -- |
Toxicity of soapy water and Vaseline?
On Jun 26, 7:07*pm, Michael Bell wrote:
In message * * * * * Michael Bell wrote: In message ups.com * * * * * aquachimp wrote: On Jun 26, 8:09*am, Michael Bell wrote: In message ups.com * * * * * aquachimp wrote: On Jun 25, 1:43 pm, Michael Bell wrote: In message Charlie Pridham wrote: In article , says... I am trying to graft green stems (this year's seedlings) of alder onto green (this year's growth) of the side-branches of adult alder trees. I have been using Hellermann sleeves (thank you to whoever suggested them) Using the Hellerman sleeves I made grafts which looked really satifactory. But they all died! What is wrong? One cause might be poor workmanship and wrong graft design, but I think I have brought the right surfaces together. When else might it be? I have thought of 2 possibilities :- * The Hellermann sleeves are very sticky on the prongs of the tool so I soaked them overnight in soapy water (the soap is ordinary washing soap) to make them easier to handle. The sleeves were still full of water when I put them over the stock. These pieces of scion are 2-3 cm long, 2 -3 mm diamter, and green, and the edge of the cut surfaces maybe exposed to the soapy water. But surely soapy water is harmless? Or is it? * I have putting "Arbrex seal and heal" generously on the stock at the bottom end of the Hellermann sleeves, and on the cut ends of the petiole and the scion upper end. Now I look more carefully at the label of the "Arbrex seal and heal" I see it says "contains ethanol and colophony, keep out of reach of children". Maybe it is the cause of my problems? And if it is, what should I used instead? Michael Bell Timing, tree grafting is often carried out in late winter and again in July August after the trees finish growth, but I have no first hand experiance of tree grafting and can find nothing relivant for Alder. |
Toxicity of soapy water and Vaseline?
In message
ps.com aquachimp wrote: On Jun 26, 7:07*pm, Michael Bell wrote: In message * * * * * Michael Bell wrote: In message ups.com * * * * * aquachimp wrote: On Jun 26, 8:09*am, Michael Bell wrote: In message ups.com * * * * * aquachimp wrote: On Jun 25, 1:43 pm, Michael Bell wrote: In message Charlie Pridham wrote: In article , says... [snip] Budding is a new technique to me, and in one afternoon I have not got it right. I am beginning to run out of seedlings to practice on. But I can use material from adult trees. Molten wax is damned awkward to use. It keeps setting before I can use it. Thinking around for other materials that are waterproof and definitely not-toxic, I hit on the idea of Vaseline. It's certainly waterproof, mechanical strength is not needed and I very much think non-toxic. It goes on babie's bottoms! Michael Bell Got any rubber bands? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shield_budding Search online for "Hellermann sleeves" first suggested to me on this ng. Many suppliers sell them, including r s components, who I bought from because I have an account with them, but there are many other suppliers. The sleeves (RS Stock No 399-596 and similar) are available in a wide range of colours and sizes, also the tool (RS Stock No 548-243) for putting them on with, very useful. The sleeves are very sticky on the tool, they do sell a lube, and I wonder how toxic it would be to green plants, but anyway I found that licking the prongs of the tool to wet it allowed the sleeves to be slid off just nicely. Michael Bell -- |
Toxicity of soapy water and "Arbrex seal and heal"
In article ,
says... In message Charlie Pridham wrote: In article , says... I am trying to graft green stems (this year's seedlings) of alder onto green (this year's growth) of the side-branches of adult alder trees. I have been using Hellermann sleeves (thank you to whoever suggested them) Using the Hellerman sleeves I made grafts which looked really satifactory. But they all died! What is wrong? One cause might be poor workmanship and wrong graft design, but I think I have brought the right surfaces together. When else might it be? I have thought of 2 possibilities :- * The Hellermann sleeves are very sticky on the prongs of the tool so I soaked them overnight in soapy water (the soap is ordinary washing soap) to make them easier to handle. The sleeves were still full of water when I put them over the stock. These pieces of scion are 2-3 cm long, 2 -3 mm diamter, and green, and the edge of the cut surfaces maybe exposed to the soapy water. But surely soapy water is harmless? Or is it? * I have putting "Arbrex seal and heal" generously on the stock at the bottom end of the Hellermann sleeves, and on the cut ends of the petiole and the scion upper end. Now I look more carefully at the label of the "Arbrex seal and heal" I see it says "contains ethanol and colophony, keep out of reach of children". Maybe it is the cause of my problems? And if it is, what should I used instead? Michael Bell Timing, tree grafting is often carried out in late winter and again in July August after the trees finish growth, but I have no first hand experiance of tree grafting and can find nothing relivant for Alder. Most grafts are sealed with grafting wax This is the time when the seedling have reached workable size and the tree shoots are actively growing, and next year's catkins and cones are formed at the end of July, which is why I want to do this now. I am going to buy grafting wax, this is an outdoors job, a thermos flask of wax might not be too practicable and too much hot wax on a small graft might be too much. Is there anything available without these problems? I am given to understand its important to exclude water and dirt from the graft, I bought grafting tape which proved quite unsuitable for Clematis but I would imagine it would be ok for your purpose it is clear plastic tape around 1" wide that you bandage the graft with, it is then secured with ties, the process seems to need genetically modified humans with 15 fingers and thumbs allthough I am told is easy when you get the hang of it! -- Charlie Pridham, Gardening in Cornwall www.roselandhouse.co.uk Holders of national collections of Clematis viticella cultivars and Lapageria rosea |
Toxicity of soapy water and "Arbrex seal and heal" and using Tenax
In article ,
says... In message Michael Bell wrote: In message Charlie Pridham wrote: In article , says... I am trying to graft green stems (this year's seedlings) of alder onto green (this year's growth) of the side-branches of adult alder trees. I have been using Hellermann sleeves (thank you to whoever suggested them) Using the Hellerman sleeves I made grafts which looked really satifactory. But they all died! What is wrong? One cause might be poor workmanship and wrong graft design, but I think I have brought the right surfaces together. When else might it be? I have thought of 2 possibilities :- * The Hellermann sleeves are very sticky on the prongs of the tool so I soaked them overnight in soapy water (the soap is ordinary washing soap) to make them easier to handle. The sleeves were still full of water when I put them over the stock. These pieces of scion are 2-3 cm long, 2 -3 mm diamter, and green, and the edge of the cut surfaces maybe exposed to the soapy water. But surely soapy water is harmless? Or is it? * I have putting "Arbrex seal and heal" generously on the stock at the bottom end of the Hellermann sleeves, and on the cut ends of the petiole and the scion upper end. Now I look more carefully at the label of the "Arbrex seal and heal" I see it says "contains ethanol and colophony, keep out of reach of children". Maybe it is the cause of my problems? And if it is, what should I used instead? Michael Bell Timing, tree grafting is often carried out in late winter and again in July August after the trees finish growth, but I have no first hand experiance of tree grafting and can find nothing relivant for Alder. Most grafts are sealed with grafting wax This is the time when the seedling have reached workable size and the tree shoots are actively growing, and next year's catkins and cones are formed at the end of July, which is why I want to do this now. I am going to buy grafting wax, this is an outdoors job, a thermos flask The wax is supposed to be applied to the garfting tape or tie not the plant, a little at the edges where there is unbroken bark will do no harm with the heat, it is applied liquid and you need the means of melting it with you -- Charlie Pridham, Gardening in Cornwall www.roselandhouse.co.uk Holders of national collections of Clematis viticella cultivars and Lapageria rosea |
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