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Potting plants could cause Legionnaires' disease
Quote: "Compost manufacturers are considering putting warnings about
Legionnaires' disease on their bags following advice from the Royal Horticultural Society." The full article: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/7978133/Potting-plants-could-cause-Legionnaires-disease.html Personally I enjoy getting my hands into the compost, it is half the fun of potting up plants! -- David in Normandy. To e-mail you must include the password FROG on the subject line, or it will be automatically deleted by a filter and not reach my inbox. |
Potting plants could cause Legionnaires' disease
Personally I enjoy getting my hands into the compost, it is half the fun of potting up plants! Yesterday evening at our Society meeting we had a visiting speaker who used to work in the Garden Trade, and now retired still runs a small nursury. After fifty years he now, when potting up using compost, wears disposal latex gloves. www.lincolnfuchsiasociety.info |
Potting plants could cause Legionnaires' disease
On 03/09/2010 10:45, Sacha wrote:
On 2010-09-03 08:55:03 +0100, David in Normandy said: Quote: "Compost manufacturers are considering putting warnings about Legionnaires' disease on their bags following advice from the Royal Horticultural Society." The full article: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/7978133/Potting-plants-could-cause-Legionnaires-disease.html Personally I enjoy getting my hands into the compost, it is half the fun of potting up plants! Hang on - I'm just dashing out to the nursery......! I've noticed that bags of some cheap compost have a very strong smell - any idea what that is? I can't decide if it is some sort of man-made chemical smell or some sort of decomposition related odour. Such compost often has white fungus of some sort growing in it, so is clearly far from sterile. -- David in Normandy. To e-mail you must include the password FROG on the subject line, or it will be automatically deleted by a filter and not reach my inbox. |
Potting plants could cause Legionnaires' disease
On Fri, 03 Sep 2010 13:31:50 +0200, David in Normandy
wrote: On 03/09/2010 10:45, Sacha wrote: On 2010-09-03 08:55:03 +0100, David in Normandy said: Quote: "Compost manufacturers are considering putting warnings about Legionnaires' disease on their bags following advice from the Royal Horticultural Society." The full article: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/7978133/Potting-plants-could-cause-Legionnaires-disease.html Personally I enjoy getting my hands into the compost, it is half the fun of potting up plants! Hang on - I'm just dashing out to the nursery......! I've noticed that bags of some cheap compost have a very strong smell - any idea what that is? I can't decide if it is some sort of man-made chemical smell or some sort of decomposition related odour. Such compost often has white fungus of some sort growing in it, so is clearly far from sterile. Added spent mushroom compost? -- (¯`·. ®óñ© © ²°¹° .·´¯) |
Potting plants could cause Legionnaires' disease
On Fri, 03 Sep 2010 12:06:50 +0100, Derek
wrote: Personally I enjoy getting my hands into the compost, it is half the fun of potting up plants! Yesterday evening at our Society meeting we had a visiting speaker who used to work in the Garden Trade, and now retired still runs a small nursury. After fifty years he now, when potting up using compost, wears disposal latex gloves. www.lincolnfuchsiasociety.info I've used disposable gloves when pricking out/potting up for years and heavier gloves when planting in the ground. I also keep TCP and "sanitiser gel" in the garden shed - better safe than sorry as my doc won't give me tetanus boosters any more because I react badly to them. |
Potting plants could cause Legionnaires' disease
"David in Normandy" wrote Quote: "Compost manufacturers are considering putting warnings about Legionnaires' disease on their bags following advice from the Royal Horticultural Society." The full article: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/7978133/Potting-plants-could-cause-Legionnaires-disease.html Personally I enjoy getting my hands into the compost, it is half the fun of potting up plants! Am I wrong in thinking that in the old days the compost was sterilised? In these days of the incorporation of composted household waste in most composts it certainly should be. -- Regards Bob Hobden W.of London. UK |
Potting plants could cause Legionnaires' disease
David in Normandy wrote:
Quote: "Compost manufacturers are considering putting warnings about Legionnaires' disease on their bags following advice from the Royal Horticultural Society." The full article: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/7978133/Potting-plants-could-cause-Legionnaires-disease.html Personally I enjoy getting my hands into the compost, it is half the fun of potting up plants! Hmm, I vote "dubious" for the claims of this article. I have some knowledge of legionella as I used to be a building services engineer (polite term for maintenance man) and a significant part of that is legionella precautions. Legionella bacteria is all around us in the evironment. It's in all our water. It is, under normal circumstances, harmless. It only becomes dangerous when inhaled in a fine water spray, at which point it is able to circumvent the body's natural defences against bacterial attack. We must remember that the environment is full of things that want to do us harm,and the reason we're here as a species is that the body has over billions of years of evolution developed all kinds of protective mechanisms; which is why disabling the immune system causes a horrible death from opportunist infections. Once your protections are down, it's not *if* you will get ill, but *when* you will get ill. This is based on one particular case, and a supposition by the doctors treating the man. It's a guess that he caught the infection from compost. They have no proof, and cannot have proof; the only facts they have are that he caught legionella, and had handled compost with a cut hand. But correlation does not equal causation. He might have caught it from a spray of water he does not even remember to tell them about. So far as I am aware there are no known cases of legionella (except this one, now, apparently) in which it has been caught by this route of infection, through a skin lesion. If legionella were capable of infecting us this way, it would be epidemic. But it isn't. Just rinsing a cut under tap water- a very common first aid- would lead to infections, from legionella infected water getting into the cut. Swimmers would catch it. People handling garden soil would routinely catch it. Farmers dealing with water troughs for animals would catch it. And so on. But they don't. It is even very hard to catch from fine water sprays. Only very high concentrations of the bacterium combined with a lack of water treatment cause outbreaks. It only became a threat when cooling systems using water sprays became commonplace, an environment in which the bacterium thrives as the water is in a closed loop and can thus build up bacterial concentrations; which is why engineers have to have a regime of bromine treatment. So I call foul on this. It's a supposition, not a scientific conclusion; just guesswork from a doctor. It seems very unlikely to me. Of course it's always advisable to avoid getting a cut dirty. There are lots of diseases that like to make their way into the body via a dirty wound. Legionella isn't one of them. Ian |
Potting plants could cause Legionnaires' disease
On 03/09/2010 15:49, Ian B wrote:
Of course it's always advisable to avoid getting a cut dirty. There are lots of diseases that like to make their way into the body via a dirty wound. Legionella isn't one of them. Interesting. I did wonder if it was an over-reaction by what is becoming an overly elfin safety conscious society. I am surprised so many gardeners wear gloves though to handle compost. It sounds like it may be a wise thing to do? Last year I ended up with a fungal infection on both knees - I think it was due to kneeling on the bare soil while planting seedlings and wearing shorts. It took three months to get rid of the infection with anti-fungal creams - it was damn persistent. I guess the abrasion of the soil on the bare skin was enough to introduce the spores under the skin, especially while putting weight on my knees. I've just been kneeling and planting more seedlings today, but kept stout jeans on despite the heat. My back just won't take stooping for long nowadays. -- David in Normandy. To e-mail you must include the password FROG on the subject line, or it will be automatically deleted by a filter and not reach my inbox. |
Potting plants could cause Legionnaires' disease
David in Normandy wrote:
On 03/09/2010 15:49, Ian B wrote: Of course it's always advisable to avoid getting a cut dirty. There are lots of diseases that like to make their way into the body via a dirty wound. Legionella isn't one of them. Interesting. I did wonder if it was an over-reaction by what is becoming an overly elfin safety conscious society. I am surprised so many gardeners wear gloves though to handle compost. It sounds like it may be a wise thing to do? Last year I ended up with a fungal infection on both knees - I think it was due to kneeling on the bare soil while planting seedlings and wearing shorts. It took three months to get rid of the infection with anti-fungal creams - it was damn persistent. I guess the abrasion of the soil on the bare skin was enough to introduce the spores under the skin, especially while putting weight on my knees. I've just been kneeling and planting more seedlings today, but kept stout jeans on despite the heat. My back just won't take stooping for long nowadays. I'd certainly want more evidence than one case which amounts to no more than hearsay. As to knees, my mum had a "kneeler" for gardening which both protected her knees and made it more comfortable too. Perhaps a worthwhile investment? Even a dustbin liner would help stop knees getting ground into the soil. Ian |
Potting plants could cause Legionnaires' disease
In message , David in
Normandy writes On 03/09/2010 15:49, Ian B wrote: Of course it's always advisable to avoid getting a cut dirty. There are lots of diseases that like to make their way into the body via a dirty wound. Legionella isn't one of them. Interesting. I did wonder if it was an over-reaction by what is becoming an overly elfin safety conscious society. I am surprised so many gardeners wear gloves though to handle compost. It sounds like it may be a wise thing to do? Last year I ended up with a fungal infection on both knees - I think it was due to kneeling on the bare soil while planting seedlings and wearing shorts. It took three months to get rid of the infection with anti-fungal creams - it was damn persistent. I guess the abrasion of the soil on the bare skin was enough to introduce the spores under the skin, especially while putting weight on my knees. I've just been kneeling and planting more seedlings today, but kept stout jeans on despite the heat. My back just won't take stooping for long nowadays. I wonder if you suffer from dry skin? When I had an itchy spot on my shin which would scab over when I scratched it, my GP called it Ringworm and gave me some Trimovate cream. I used this for many months, stopping when it cleared up, only for it to reappear. After insisting on a second opinion, the GP referred me to a skin specialist who snorted at "Ringworm", said that it was eczema, took a scraping to be tested and prescribed Trimovate, but more importantly Acqueous Cream, a bland moisturiser, and told me to use it on my shins. This cured the problem permanently. The skin is a good defence, but not when it is dry and cracked. -- Gordon H Remove "invalid" to reply |
Potting plants could cause Legionnaires' disease
On 3 Sep, 14:49, "Ian B" wrote:
David in Normandy wrote: Quote: "Compost manufacturers are considering putting warnings about Legionnaires' disease on their bags following advice from the Royal Horticultural Society." The full article: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/7978133/Potting-plants-could-cause-... Personally I enjoy getting my hands into the compost, it is half the fun of potting up plants! Hmm, I vote "dubious" for the claims of this article. I have some knowledge of legionella as I used to be a building services engineer (polite term for maintenance man) and a significant part of that is legionella precautions. Legionella bacteria is all around us in the evironment. It's in all our water. It is, under normal circumstances, harmless. It only becomes dangerous when inhaled in a fine water spray, at which point it is able to circumvent the body's natural defences against bacterial attack. We must remember that the environment is full of things that want to do us harm,and the reason we're here as a species is that the body has over billions of years of evolution developed all kinds of protective mechanisms; which is why disabling the immune system causes a horrible death from opportunist infections. Once your protections are down, it's not *if* you will get ill, but *when* you will get ill. This is based on one particular case, and a supposition by the doctors treating the man. It's a guess that he caught the infection from compost. They have no proof, and cannot have proof; the only facts they have are that he caught legionella, and had handled compost with a cut hand. But correlation does not equal causation. He might have caught it from a spray of water he does not even remember to tell them about. So far as I am aware there are no known cases of legionella (except this one, now, apparently) in which it has been caught by this route of infection, through a skin lesion. If legionella were capable of infecting us this way, it would be epidemic. But it isn't. Just rinsing a cut under tap water- a very common first aid- would lead to infections, from legionella infected water getting into the cut. Swimmers would catch it. People handling garden soil would routinely catch it. Farmers dealing with water troughs for animals would catch it. And so on. But they don't. It is even very hard to catch from fine water sprays. Only very high concentrations of the bacterium combined with a lack of water treatment cause outbreaks. It only became a threat when cooling systems using water sprays became commonplace, an environment in which the bacterium thrives as the water is in a closed loop and can thus build up bacterial concentrations; which is why engineers have to have a regime of bromine treatment. So I call foul on this. It's a supposition, not a scientific conclusion; just guesswork from a doctor. It seems very unlikely to me. Of course it's always advisable to avoid getting a cut dirty. There are lots of diseases that like to make their way into the body via a dirty wound. Legionella isn't one of them. Ian All of the above is exactly so. I was a hospital engineer and spent quite a time bothering over legionella. You are more likely to get legionnaire disease by taking a shower. About the compost, problems have arisen since substitutes for peat have been incorporated. Peat was fairly sterile. Stuff like coir and even composted human excrement are now used. I suppose there's a good chance of infection via a cut. |
Potting plants could cause Legionnaires' disease
On 03/09/2010 17:55, Gordon H wrote:
I wonder if you suffer from dry skin? When I had an itchy spot on my shin which would scab over when I scratched it, my GP called it Ringworm and gave me some Trimovate cream. I used this for many months, stopping when it cleared up, only for it to reappear. After insisting on a second opinion, the GP referred me to a skin specialist who snorted at "Ringworm", said that it was eczema, took a scraping to be tested and prescribed Trimovate, but more importantly Acqueous Cream, a bland moisturiser, and told me to use it on my shins. This cured the problem permanently. The skin is a good defence, but not when it is dry and cracked. I'm fairly sure it was fungal. It grew outwards in the classic circular shape. It also itched like crazy. I had something similar once on my shin though, where it grew similarly but outwards from a cut. I don't have dry skin. The soil here must be laden with fungal spores - or I've just become more susceptible to infection in my decrepitude! ;-) -- David in Normandy. To e-mail you must include the password FROG on the subject line, or it will be automatically deleted by a filter and not reach my inbox. |
Potting plants could cause Legionnaires' disease
On 03/09/2010 16:54, Ian B wrote:
As to knees, my mum had a "kneeler" for gardening which both protected her knees and made it more comfortable too. Perhaps a worthwhile investment? Even a dustbin liner would help stop knees getting ground into the soil. Good idea. Oddly I've got a kneeler somewhere in the garage but it never occurs to me to use it! Not sure how practical it would be though when shuffling along the ground planting several rows of veg seedlings. I've got some proper DIY strap on kneeling pads but they would be useless as the soil would just get between them and my knees. Maybe the bin liner would be more practical. -- David in Normandy. To e-mail you must include the password FROG on the subject line, or it will be automatically deleted by a filter and not reach my inbox. |
Potting plants could cause Legionnaires' disease
On 03/09/2010 19:50, Sacha wrote:
On 2010-09-03 18:45:59 +0100, David in Normandy said: On 03/09/2010 16:54, Ian B wrote: As to knees, my mum had a "kneeler" for gardening which both protected her knees and made it more comfortable too. Perhaps a worthwhile investment? Even a dustbin liner would help stop knees getting ground into the soil. Good idea. Oddly I've got a kneeler somewhere in the garage but it never occurs to me to use it! Not sure how practical it would be though when shuffling along the ground planting several rows of veg seedlings. I've got some proper DIY strap on kneeling pads but they would be useless as the soil would just get between them and my knees. Maybe the bin liner would be more practical. Now, I know this sounds extremely Heath Robinson but it works. One of our Nursery staff took the wheeled bit off the bottom of an old garden tractor, attached a couple of cushions on a board to it and zipped up and down the lines of trees etc. while weeding. Don't you have some old office chair or something of that kind in a skip-near-you? ;-) Thanks for the suggestion. Heath-Robinson is my middle name! LOL. I'll have a ponder. -- David in Normandy. To e-mail you must include the password FROG on the subject line, or it will be automatically deleted by a filter and not reach my inbox. |
Potting plants could cause Legionnaires' disease
Sacha wrote:
On 2010-09-03 18:45:59 +0100, David in Normandy said: On 03/09/2010 16:54, Ian B wrote: As to knees, my mum had a "kneeler" for gardening which both protected her knees and made it more comfortable too. Perhaps a worthwhile investment? Even a dustbin liner would help stop knees getting ground into the soil. Good idea. Oddly I've got a kneeler somewhere in the garage but it never occurs to me to use it! Not sure how practical it would be though when shuffling along the ground planting several rows of veg seedlings. I've got some proper DIY strap on kneeling pads but they would be useless as the soil would just get between them and my knees. Maybe the bin liner would be more practical. Now, I know this sounds extremely Heath Robinson but it works. One of our Nursery staff took the wheeled bit off the bottom of an old garden tractor, attached a couple of cushions on a board to it and zipped up and down the lines of trees etc. while weeding. Don't you have some old office chair or something of that kind in a skip-near-you? ;-) I'm wondering if just an old cushion wrapped in plastic might work quite well. I do see David's point that any device doesn't go well with shuffling along, you have to keep getting up to move it. Maybe we need to invent some thickly padded trousers! Ian |
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Potting plants could cause Legionnaires' disease
"Sacha" wrote ... "Ian B" said: I do see David's point that any device doesn't go well with shuffling along, you have to keep getting up to move it. Maybe we need to invent some thickly padded trousers! I think you can find trousers with padded knees. I think the hard bit is getting up again as my knees now hurt when kneeling and seize up when trying to stand! I'm very indignant about this. Screwmatics run - or limp - in my family but at 64 I really did not think this was going to affect me just yet. Carpet fitters and others use trousers with padded knees... and they are cheap too... see... http://www.industrial-workwear.co.uk...users.html#a30 -- Regards Bob Hobden W.of London. UK |
Potting plants could cause Legionnaires' disease
There was an item on this on Radio 4 You and Yours, Friday lunch time.
They interviewed Prof Pennington, who poured scorn on the cut hand theory, saying that a abteriea that effects the lungs would not get there through the blood supply. He reckoned that it was breathing in the dust that probably did it. Both this prog and the telegraph article were confused between bought potting compost and compost made using garden waste. The general theory was that provided the heat in your compost heap was sufficient, the thing would be destroyed. However it then went on about leaving half used bags of damp comp0ost in warm places like a greenhouse, which would provided ideal breeding conditions. One so called expert even said that you should only buy the amount of compost you need each time, so that it is fresh! Having seen the piles of bags in garden centres that have faded in the sun (or perhaps light and rain!), I think he needs to get real - besides if I am potting up half a dozen plant, where can I buy a diddy amount of compost? I think there is more danger to your life in crossing the road, than there is inhandling compost (of whatever sort)! Roger T |
Potting plants could cause Legionnaires' disease
On 3 Sep, 19:00, David in Normandy
wrote: On 03/09/2010 19:50, Sacha wrote: On 2010-09-03 18:45:59 +0100, David in Normandy said: On 03/09/2010 16:54, Ian B wrote: As to knees, my mum had a "kneeler" for gardening which both protected her knees and made it more comfortable too. Perhaps a worthwhile investment? Even a dustbin liner would help stop knees getting ground into the soil. Good idea. Oddly I've got a kneeler somewhere in the garage but it never occurs to me to use it! Not sure how practical it would be though when shuffling along the ground planting several rows of veg seedlings. I've got some proper DIY strap on kneeling pads but they would be useless as the soil would just get between them and my knees. Maybe the bin liner would be more practical. Now, I know this sounds extremely Heath Robinson but it works. One of our Nursery staff took the wheeled bit off the bottom of an old garden tractor, attached a couple of cushions on a board to it and zipped up and down the lines of trees etc. while weeding. Don't you have some old office chair or something of that kind in a skip-near-you? ;-) Thanks for the suggestion. Heath-Robinson is my middle name! LOL. I'll have a ponder. -- David in Normandy. * * *To e-mail you must include the password FROG on the * *subject line, or it will be automatically deleted * *by a filter and not reach my inbox.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - You can buy knee pads of varying degrees of comfort and expense at any builders merchant. The fluid filled ones are most comfortable. |
Potting plants could cause Legionnaires' disease
On Sep 3, 10:35*pm, "Bob Hobden" wrote:
"Sacha" *wrote ... "Ian B" *said: I do see David's point that any device doesn't go well with shuffling along, you have to keep getting up to move it. Maybe we need to invent some thickly padded trousers! I think you can find trousers with padded knees. *I think the hard bit is getting up again as my knees now hurt when kneeling *and seize up when trying to stand! *I'm very indignant about this. *Screwmatics run - or limp - in my family but at 64 I really did not think this was going to affect me just yet. Carpet fitters and others use trousers with padded knees... and they are cheap too... see... http://www.industrial-workwear.co.uk...users.html#a30 -- Regards Bob Hobden W.of London. UK I've been using somewhat more expensive ones, day in day out for decades. They're very difficult to wear out and quite comfortable - there are ladies versions also available. http://www.axminster.co.uk/dickies-d...rs-prod719547/ These aren't quite the same as mine but very similar. Rod |
Quote:
Its a very sad world we live in, health and safety in society is way over the top. The lawyers must love this nonsense, I have handled compost for more years than I care to remember and will continue to do so! I should qualify that be saying home made compost as in no Aminopyralid, which I might add is still out there! |
Potting plants could cause Legionnaires' disease
In message , uriel13
writes Its a very sad world we live in, health and safety in society is way over the top. The lawyers must love this nonsense, I have handled compost for more years than I care to remember and will continue to do so! I should qualify that be saying home made compost as in no Aminopyralid, which I might add is still out there! Years ago, when I was a member of the local Garden Society, they obtained some bulk compost from the local sewage works, and they called it "Dentona". It was the colour of soot, but denser, had no noticeable smell, and was perfect for soil improvement, and there was a procession of wheel barrows in and out of the premises every Sunday morning... A few years ago I enquired about it and was told that they were no longer allowed to sell it for H & S reasons. -- Gordon H Remove "invalid" to reply |
Potting plants could cause Legionnaires' disease
"David in Normandy" wrote in message r... On 03/09/2010 15:49, Ian B wrote: Of course it's always advisable to avoid getting a cut dirty. There are lots of diseases that like to make their way into the body via a dirty wound. Legionella isn't one of them. Interesting. I did wonder if it was an over-reaction by what is becoming an overly elfin safety conscious society. I am surprised so many gardeners wear gloves though to handle compost. It sounds like it may be a wise thing to do? Last year I ended up with a fungal infection on both knees - I think it was due to kneeling on the bare soil while planting seedlings and wearing shorts. It took three months to get rid of the infection with anti-fungal creams - it was damn persistent. I guess the abrasion of the soil on the bare skin was enough to introduce the spores under the skin, especially while putting weight on my knees. I've just been kneeling and planting more seedlings today, but kept stout jeans on despite the heat. My back just won't take stooping for long nowadays. I know exactly what you need, those wonderful gel-filled knee pads with velcro attachments at the back that I sent to my German friend as part of her birthday parcel today. Tina |
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