And AGAIN the Farmers are having a bleat, this time on two fronts.

1) Oh dear, no water. ""We want rain to make our crops grow or you will pay
more in the shops"" Now there' a surprise ........ not

2) This dreadful Cucumber Business in Germany. ""You will have to pay more
for the crops we grow in the UK because you know they are safe""
......................... WHY????

Why why WHY do the farmers ALWAYS bleat hard times time and time again?

Have you ever seen a poor farmer?

Have you ever seen a farmers market/ball cancelled because of lack of
support because 'The Farmers cannot afford it'?

NO

The word WOLF comes to mind YET AGAIN

Mike

--

....................................
Remember, a statue has never been erected to a critic.

....................................

In article ,
says...

Why why WHY do the farmers ALWAYS bleat hard times time and time again?

Have you ever seen a poor farmer?




There are plenty of them around here, where hill farming of sheep is the
only possibility. Also we know that dairy farmers get less per lire for
their milk than it takes to produce (unless you run a super farm!).

Suggest you look at the bankrupcies and suicide rates for farmers before
taring them all with the same brush.


--
Roger T

700 ft up in Mid-Wales

Roger Tonkin wrote:
In article ,
says...

Why why WHY do the farmers ALWAYS bleat hard times time and time
again?

Have you ever seen a poor farmer?




There are plenty of them around here, where hill farming of sheep is
the only possibility. Also we know that dairy farmers get less per
lire for their milk than it takes to produce (unless you run a super
farm!).

Then why are they producing it? Something economically wrong there, isn't
there?


Ian

"Ian B" wrote in message
...
Roger Tonkin wrote:
In article ,
says...

Why why WHY do the farmers ALWAYS bleat hard times time and time
again?

Have you ever seen a poor farmer?




There are plenty of them around here, where hill farming of sheep is
the only possibility. Also we know that dairy farmers get less per
lire for their milk than it takes to produce (unless you run a super
farm!).

Then why are they producing it? Something economically wrong there, isn't
there?

at
Ian
Supermarkets provide a ready market for them but dictate the amount they
are going to pay for their produce. One very good reason why farmers are
sometimes desperate.

Bill

On Jun 2, 9:35*pm, "Ian B" wrote:
Roger Tonkin wrote:
In article ,
says...

Why why WHY do the farmers ALWAYS bleat hard times time and time
again?

Have you ever seen a poor farmer?

There are plenty of them around here, where hill farming of sheep is
the only possibility. Also we know that dairy farmers get less per
lire for their milk than it takes to produce (unless you run a super
farm!).

Then why are they producing it? Something economically wrong there, isn't
there?

Ian- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

It's probably because people in the UK don't want to pay the real cost
of their food, and farming for many is a way of life,
I'm sure you would love to have your milk from a super farm with 1000
or more cows kept in close confine, Almost battery conditions, or
brought in from who knowe where , where the animals are kept in
conditions that would be illegal in the UK.
A lot of dairy farmers are going out of buisness
http://www.nebusiness.co.uk/farming-...1140-24702521/

Bill Grey wrote:
"Ian B" wrote in message
...
Roger Tonkin wrote:
In article ,
says...

Why why WHY do the farmers ALWAYS bleat hard times time and time
again?

Have you ever seen a poor farmer?




There are plenty of them around here, where hill farming of sheep is
the only possibility. Also we know that dairy farmers get less per
lire for their milk than it takes to produce (unless you run a super
farm!).

Then why are they producing it? Something economically wrong there,
isn't there?

at
Ian
Supermarkets provide a ready market for them but dictate the amount
they are going to pay for their produce. One very good reason why
farmers are sometimes desperate.

You can't sell goods for less than your production costs. If farmer A can't
produce milk for price X, and farmer B can, then all that can happen is
farmer A leaves the milk production market. That's how economic growth
occurs, with the better supplier knocking the inferior supplier out of the
market. Which is often unpleasant for the individuals concerned, but
ultimately good for everyone.

The thing is, nobody can "dictate" a price. I can say I'll only pay £100 for
a Ferrari, but I can't make Ferrari sell me one for that price. Likewise if
the supermarkets demand milk at a cheaper price than it can be produced,
they will get no milk, because there won't be any producers at that price.

Any farmer foolish enough to sell milk at below cost must be
cross-subsidising it from some profitable enterprise, e.g. crops or sheep or
something. He needs to get out of the cow juice business. He's destroying
value in the economy, and in his own bank account.


Ian

Dave Hill wrote:
On Jun 2, 9:35 pm, "Ian B" wrote:
Roger Tonkin wrote:
In article ,
says...

Why why WHY do the farmers ALWAYS bleat hard times time and time
again?

Have you ever seen a poor farmer?

There are plenty of them around here, where hill farming of sheep is
the only possibility. Also we know that dairy farmers get less per
lire for their milk than it takes to produce (unless you run a super
farm!).

Then why are they producing it? Something economically wrong there,
isn't there?

Ian- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

It's probably because people in the UK don't want to pay the real cost
of their food, and farming for many is a way of life,
I'm sure you would love to have your milk from a super farm with 1000
or more cows kept in close confine, Almost battery conditions, or
brought in from who knowe where , where the animals are kept in
conditions that would be illegal in the UK.
A lot of dairy farmers are going out of buisness
http://www.nebusiness.co.uk/farming-...1140-24702521/

As I said, it's just inefficeint farmers complaining then, and using animal
welfare as a crowbar.

Yes, I want my milk from the best source available; a "super farm" or what
have you. Of course I want to pay the "real cost"- not the cost of
maintaining some rural romantic in his idyll. A farm is a food factory, not
a cow sanctuary. If state regulations are forcing farmers to be inefficient
compared to their competitors, those regulations are the problem. Get rid of
them.

The point is, inefficient producers going out of business is a *good thing*.
It is the only reason we have economic growth.


Ian

Ian B wrote:
Dave Hill wrote:
On Jun 2, 9:35 pm, "Ian B" wrote:
Roger Tonkin wrote:
In article ,
says...

Why why WHY do the farmers ALWAYS bleat hard times time and time
again?

Have you ever seen a poor farmer?

There are plenty of them around here, where hill farming of sheep
is the only possibility. Also we know that dairy farmers get less
per lire for their milk than it takes to produce (unless you run a
super farm!).

Then why are they producing it? Something economically wrong there,
isn't there?

Ian- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

It's probably because people in the UK don't want to pay the real
cost of their food, and farming for many is a way of life,
I'm sure you would love to have your milk from a super farm with 1000
or more cows kept in close confine, Almost battery conditions, or
brought in from who knowe where , where the animals are kept in
conditions that would be illegal in the UK.
A lot of dairy farmers are going out of buisness
http://www.nebusiness.co.uk/farming-...1140-24702521/

As I said, it's just inefficeint farmers complaining then, and using
animal welfare as a crowbar.

Yes, I want my milk from the best source available; a "super farm" or
what have you. Of course I want to pay the "real cost"- not the cost
of maintaining some rural romantic in his idyll. A farm is a food
factory, not a cow sanctuary. If state regulations are forcing
farmers to be inefficient compared to their competitors, those
regulations are the problem. Get rid of them.

The point is, inefficient producers going out of business is a *good
thing*. It is the only reason we have economic growth.

Sorry, forgot one point. If there is a market for cow-friendly milk; if
there are consumers who care about the care of the cows and are prepared to
pay a little more for their cow-friendly milk, then there is a simple
answer; market it as such. Advertise it as milk produced by happy cows, the
same as organic food or dolphin-friendly tuna.

Let consumers decide what price they want to pay; cheaper factory milk or
more expensive cow-friendly milk.

I suspect though that most people don't give a damn, but the market can soon
give an answer on that, one way or the other.


Ian

Martin wrote:
On Thu, 2 Jun 2011 22:15:04 +0100, "Ian B"
wrote:

Dave Hill wrote:
On Jun 2, 9:35 pm, "Ian B" wrote:
Roger Tonkin wrote:
In article ,
says...

Why why WHY do the farmers ALWAYS bleat hard times time and time
again?

Have you ever seen a poor farmer?

There are plenty of them around here, where hill farming of sheep
is the only possibility. Also we know that dairy farmers get less
per lire for their milk than it takes to produce (unless you run
a super farm!).

Then why are they producing it? Something economically wrong there,
isn't there?

Ian- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

It's probably because people in the UK don't want to pay the real
cost of their food, and farming for many is a way of life,
I'm sure you would love to have your milk from a super farm with
1000 or more cows kept in close confine, Almost battery conditions,
or brought in from who knowe where , where the animals are kept in
conditions that would be illegal in the UK.
A lot of dairy farmers are going out of buisness
http://www.nebusiness.co.uk/farming-...1140-24702521/

As I said, it's just inefficeint farmers complaining then, and using
animal welfare as a crowbar.

Yes, I want my milk from the best source available; a "super farm"
or what have you. Of course I want to pay the "real cost"- not the
cost of maintaining some rural romantic in his idyll. A farm is a
food factory, not a cow sanctuary. If state regulations are forcing
farmers to be inefficient compared to their competitors, those
regulations are the problem. Get rid of them.

The point is, inefficient producers going out of business is a *good
thing*. It is the only reason we have economic growth.

UK has almost zero economic growth. Something to do with local
producers being forced out of business and their products replaced by
foreign imports.

Nope, that's an autarkic fallacy. The post-war Labour government tried
restricting imports to stimulate local production (as have numerous tinpot
third world dictators) and it has the opposite effect; shortages and reduced
growth. Suppose it's cheaper to produce lamb in Wales than in Yorkshire
(hypothetically). So the government tries to improve the Yorkshire sheep
industry by banning the import of Welsh lamb. The actual effect is just
insufficient lamb in Yorkshire, which is more expensive, impoverishing the
Yorkshiremen (even though a few Yorkshire farmers may get a bit more
income). What Yorkshire needs to do is produce something else to sell to the
Welsh for their cheap lamb, like Yorkshire Puddings or steel or something.

When you realise that trade restriction polices are a policy of "making
people better off by making them pay more" the fallacy becomes clear.


Ian

On 02/06/2011 23:42, Ian B wrote:
Martin wrote:
On Thu, 2 Jun 2011 22:15:04 +0100, "Ian
wrote:

Dave Hill wrote:
On Jun 2, 9:35 pm, "Ian wrote:
Roger Tonkin wrote:
In ,
says...

Why why WHY do the farmers ALWAYS bleat hard times time and time
again?

Have you ever seen a poor farmer?

There are plenty of them around here, where hill farming of sheep
is the only possibility. Also we know that dairy farmers get less
per lire for their milk than it takes to produce (unless you run
a super farm!).

Then why are they producing it? Something economically wrong there,
isn't there?

Ian- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

It's probably because people in the UK don't want to pay the real
cost of their food, and farming for many is a way of life,
I'm sure you would love to have your milk from a super farm with
1000 or more cows kept in close confine, Almost battery conditions,
or brought in from who knowe where , where the animals are kept in
conditions that would be illegal in the UK.
A lot of dairy farmers are going out of buisness
http://www.nebusiness.co.uk/farming-...1140-24702521/

As I said, it's just inefficeint farmers complaining then, and using
animal welfare as a crowbar.

Yes, I want my milk from the best source available; a "super farm"
or what have you. Of course I want to pay the "real cost"- not the
cost of maintaining some rural romantic in his idyll. A farm is a
food factory, not a cow sanctuary. If state regulations are forcing
farmers to be inefficient compared to their competitors, those
regulations are the problem. Get rid of them.

The point is, inefficient producers going out of business is a *good
thing*. It is the only reason we have economic growth.

UK has almost zero economic growth. Something to do with local
producers being forced out of business and their products replaced by
foreign imports.

Nope, that's an autarkic fallacy. The post-war Labour government tried
restricting imports to stimulate local production (as have numerous tinpot
third world dictators) and it has the opposite effect; shortages and reduced
growth. Suppose it's cheaper to produce lamb in Wales than in Yorkshire
(hypothetically). So the government tries to improve the Yorkshire sheep
industry by banning the import of Welsh lamb. The actual effect is just
insufficient lamb in Yorkshire, which is more expensive, impoverishing the
Yorkshiremen (even though a few Yorkshire farmers may get a bit more
income). What Yorkshire needs to do is produce something else to sell to the
Welsh for their cheap lamb, like Yorkshire Puddings or steel or something.

When you realise that trade restriction polices are a policy of "making
people better off by making them pay more" the fallacy becomes clear.


Ian



My father (a retired smallholding farmer) used to have free range hens
years ago and sell eggs at a fair price to local shops and at the gate.
Then came along the government initiative called the "Egg Marketing
Board" and all farmers had to sell their eggs to this quango. However,
the quango dictated the price paid for the eggs. This made it uneconomic
for my father to continue with small scale egg production so he had to
pull out of the market. However those farmers who went for intensive egg
production and battery hens succeeded. The Egg Marketing Board has long
since gone, but their legacy of large scale battery hen farms remains.

--
David in Normandy.
To e-mail you must include the password FROG on the
subject line, or it will be automatically deleted
by a filter and not reach my inbox.

Janet wrote:
In article ,
lid says...

Bill Grey wrote:
"Ian B" wrote in message
...
Roger Tonkin wrote:
In article ,
says...

Why why WHY do the farmers ALWAYS bleat hard times time and time
again?

Have you ever seen a poor farmer?




There are plenty of them around here, where hill farming of sheep
is the only possibility. Also we know that dairy farmers get less
per lire for their milk than it takes to produce (unless you run
a super farm!).

Then why are they producing it? Something economically wrong there,
isn't there?

at

The thing is, nobody can "dictate" a price. I can say I'll only pay
£100 for a Ferrari, but I can't make Ferrari sell me one for that
price. Likewise if the supermarkets demand milk at a cheaper price
than it can be produced, they will get no milk, because there won't
be any producers at that
price.

Except that if Ferrari don't want to sell cheap, they can just
park the car they made and wait for the market to change. You can't
do that with a live herd of milkers, in the middle of a breeding
program. They still have to be fed, milked and managed, all costing
money. So, the buyer knows very well the farmer can't afford to
refuse to sell the product. So long as he has milkers he must sell
milk, even at aloss, until he either goes bust or gets out of
dairying. The problem with getting out of dairying, is that he's
probably still owes the bank for his dairy equipment (that nobody
else wants to buy, and can't be adapted to another use). Recipe for
bankruptcy.

In the past decade,the number of UK dairy farms has halved.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/n...sumer/2785449/
UK-dairy-farming-on-brink-of-collapse.html

"UK dairy farmers lose an average of 4.7p on every litre of milk they
produce, giving the average dairy farm an annual loss of £37,600, new
figures show.

The figures from First Milk, a farmer-owned dairy business that
supplies more than 1.8bn litres of milk a year, lay bare the
desperate plight of the UK dairy industry.

According to a report out today, the average price paid to a farmer
for a litre of milk over the year to March 31 2007 was 17.5p. However
the cost of producing this milk was 22p. This 4.7p loss multiplied by
the 800,000 litres that the average farm produces each year equates
to £37,600.

Peter Humphreys, chief executive of First Milk, said that the dairy
industry was "on the brink of collapse".

When dairying in the UK is finished, don't imagine UK
supermarkets will still sell it at the lowest price in Europe.
They'll still be the ones setting the price of milk but it will be
the consumers over a barrel.

Janet.


Then the farmers have to go bankrupt. They made a bad investment. It's
unpleasant when that happens, but it has happened to numerous businesses
over the centuries; you thought there was a market, you borrowed money, you
found there wasn't a market, you went bust with heaps of debt.

I know this sounds callous; but the market only works if we look at it this
way. Entrepreneurs take risks; they may romp home in wealth, or collapse in
poverty. If you want a free market, growth and general wealth, you have to
live with that. If not, accept the shortages, lack of growth, lack of wealth
and lack of innovation (and ultimate economic collapse) of communism.

Left alone, the milk market will set a price. That's the only way to find
out what the correct price of milk is. Those who can't sell at that price
will leave the market; those who can will prosper. There isn't any other
way.

And as I said, if government regulations are making our milk uneconomic,
don't blame the supermarkets or the markets, blame the government. And scrap
the regulations.


Ian

"Dave Hill" wrote in message
...
On Jun 2, 9:35 pm, "Ian B" wrote:
Roger Tonkin wrote:
In article ,
says...

Why why WHY do the farmers ALWAYS bleat hard times time and time
again?

Have you ever seen a poor farmer?

There are plenty of them around here, where hill farming of sheep is
the only possibility. Also we know that dairy farmers get less per
lire for their milk than it takes to produce (unless you run a super
farm!).

Then why are they producing it? Something economically wrong there, isn't
there?

Ian- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

It's probably because people in the UK don't want to pay the real cost
of their food, and farming for many is a way of life,

I'm sure it has nothing to do with people not wanting to pay the real cost
of food, it has more to do with the greed of supermarkets who do not want to
pay the proper amount but increase their profits!

Alan

"Roger Tonkin" wrote in message
...
In article ,
says...

Suggest you look at the bankrupcies and suicide rates for farmers before
taring them all with the same brush.

Exactly

Janet wrote:
In article ,
lid says...

Janet wrote:
In article ,
lid says...

Bill Grey wrote:
"Ian B" wrote in message
...
Roger Tonkin wrote:
In article ,
says...

Why why WHY do the farmers ALWAYS bleat hard times time and
time again?

Have you ever seen a poor farmer?




There are plenty of them around here, where hill farming of
sheep is the only possibility. Also we know that dairy farmers
get less per lire for their milk than it takes to produce
(unless you run a super farm!).

Then why are they producing it? Something economically wrong
there, isn't there?

at

The thing is, nobody can "dictate" a price. I can say I'll only pay
£100 for a Ferrari, but I can't make Ferrari sell me one for that
price. Likewise if the supermarkets demand milk at a cheaper price
than it can be produced, they will get no milk, because there won't
be any producers at that
price.

Except that if Ferrari don't want to sell cheap, they can just
park the car they made and wait for the market to change. You can't
do that with a live herd of milkers, in the middle of a breeding
program. They still have to be fed, milked and managed, all costing
money. So, the buyer knows very well the farmer can't afford to
refuse to sell the product. So long as he has milkers he must sell
milk, even at aloss, until he either goes bust or gets out of
dairying. The problem with getting out of dairying, is that he's
probably still owes the bank for his dairy equipment (that nobody
else wants to buy, and can't be adapted to another use). Recipe for
bankruptcy.

In the past decade,the number of UK dairy farms has halved.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/n...sumer/2785449/
UK-dairy-farming-on-brink-of-collapse.html

"UK dairy farmers lose an average of 4.7p on every litre of milk
they produce, giving the average dairy farm an annual loss of
£37,600, new figures show.

The figures from First Milk, a farmer-owned dairy business that
supplies more than 1.8bn litres of milk a year, lay bare the
desperate plight of the UK dairy industry.

According to a report out today, the average price paid to a farmer
for a litre of milk over the year to March 31 2007 was 17.5p.
However the cost of producing this milk was 22p. This 4.7p loss
multiplied by the 800,000 litres that the average farm produces
each year equates to £37,600.

Peter Humphreys, chief executive of First Milk, said that the dairy
industry was "on the brink of collapse".

When dairying in the UK is finished, don't imagine UK
supermarkets will still sell it at the lowest price in Europe.
They'll still be the ones setting the price of milk but it will be
the consumers over a barrel.

Janet.

And as I said, if government regulations are making our milk
uneconomic,

They aren't. We have the highest welfare and safety standards in
Europe ,


There's your problem right there, Janet.


Ian

Sacha wrote:
On 2011-06-02 22:11:03 +0100, "Ian B" said:

Bill Grey wrote:
"Ian B" wrote in message
...
Roger Tonkin wrote:
In article ,
says...

Why why WHY do the farmers ALWAYS bleat hard times time and time
again?

Have you ever seen a poor farmer?




There are plenty of them around here, where hill farming of sheep
is the only possibility. Also we know that dairy farmers get less
per lire for their milk than it takes to produce (unless you run
a super farm!).

Then why are they producing it? Something economically wrong there,
isn't there?

at
Ian
Supermarkets provide a ready market for them but dictate the amount
they are going to pay for their produce. One very good reason why
farmers are sometimes desperate.

You can't sell goods for less than your production costs. If farmer
A can't produce milk for price X, and farmer B can, then all that
can happen is farmer A leaves the milk production market. That's how
economic growth occurs, with the better supplier knocking the
inferior supplier out of the market. Which is often unpleasant for
the individuals concerned, but ultimately good for everyone.

The thing is, nobody can "dictate" a price. I can say I'll only pay
£100 for a Ferrari, but I can't make Ferrari sell me one for that
price. Likewise if the supermarkets demand milk at a cheaper price
than it can be produced, they will get no milk, because there won't
be any producers at that price. Any farmer foolish enough to sell milk at
below cost must be
cross-subsidising it from some profitable enterprise, e.g. crops or
sheep or something. He needs to get out of the cow juice business.
He's destroying value in the economy, and in his own bank account.


Ian

'Leaving a market" means the farmer has to sell his cows or have them
put down. For many/most, this is a heart breaking decision so they
soldier on, hoping things will improve. If they do get out and turn
to e.g. beef farming, all that does is widen the door for the big
buyers who dictate the prices to bring in milk from abroad. When it's
our only source of supply as all domestic sources have gone, do you
think it will still be cheap? This applies, of course, to all our food
producers. If you want to be in the hands of giant chains and foreign
producers, this is the right way to go about it.

Sacha, any business failure is heartbreaking. Back in the 70s, my dad was
stupid enough to try to run a (taxi) business under a Labour government. It
failed. So did my parents' marriage. Our home was taken by the bank. I ended
up in a borassically skint one parent family.

You can't keep propping up businesses on emotive arguments about doe-eyed
cows and sad farmers. Every business faces the possibility of ruin. I myself
in my cartoon business face competitors who are abroad, who are far, far
cheaper than I am, which is why I have to specialise in something they can't
do (high quality writing which is in ghastly short supply in the "adult"
business believe me, mainly). I get emails from foreign climes offering me
artwork at the equivalent of £15.00 a page. I can't even start a page for
that.

But they are cheap and I am expensive for all kinds of reasons. The UK is a
ridiculously expensive country to live in. Our housing is absurdly
expensive, our food is expensive, we are over-regulated, we pay high taxes.
There is a shedload more to poor competitiveness than anyone wants to
address; they prefer to borrow the American Left's obsessions with "the Big
Corporations". Hey, let's all hate supermarkets! That's easy!

I wonder how many of the ruralists complaining about all this have actively
campaigned to prevent housebuilding in their local area, or at least
sympathise with those campaigners. Well, those who have are actively working
to keep British housing at an extortionate price; which means our wages must
be higher, which measn everything costs more, which means we can't compete.
How many support high fuel taxes? How many demand "animal welfare"
regulations?

There's a lot more to it than supermarkets. Really there is.


Ian