I am trying to develop alder as a grain crop. One of the things I want
is bigger seeds.

Thinking I might find something different I went and looked at Bolam
Lake (Northumberland) and indeed I found something different; the
seeds were the smallest I have ever seen. Why should this be? Where
can I find the opposite, big seeds?

Bolam lake is inland. Might I find bigger nearer the coast? Higher?
Lower? North? South?

But here is another way of looking at it. Bolam lake is an artificial
lake, no natural streams run into it, probably a design feature to
avoid silting. Alders typically spread by the seeds floating
downstream, that means that alder seeds can only have blown in, giving
rise the trees bearing small I find now.

So, how do tree seeds normally spread? In the case of hazel, oak, etc,
obviously birds and squirrels, and they are the right size to be
attractive to these creatures. Alder seeds seem too small.

I stumbled accidentally on a circumstance which selected for small
seeds. Can anybody think of a circumstance which selects for big alder
seeds?

Michael Bell

--

In article ,
Michael Bell wrote:

I am trying to develop alder as a grain crop. One of the things I want
is bigger seeds.

Yes. As people have commented before, good luck, because you will
need it!

So, how do tree seeds normally spread? In the case of hazel, oak, etc,
obviously birds and squirrels, and they are the right size to be
attractive to these creatures. Alder seeds seem too small.

Birch is related, and they are distributed by the wind for quite
a long way, and can be a real pain. Naturally, that selects against
becoming large. I don't know about alder.

On Nov 5, 10:20*am, wrote:
In article ,
Michael Bell wrote:



I am trying to develop alder as a grain crop. One of the things I want
is bigger seeds.

Yes. *As people have commented before, good luck, because you will
need it!

So, how do tree seeds normally spread? In the case of hazel, oak, etc,
obviously birds and squirrels, and they are the right size to be
attractive to these creatures. Alder seeds seem too small.

Birch is related, and they are distributed by the wind for quite
a long way, and can be a real pain. *Naturally, that selects against
becoming large. *I don't know about alder.

Has it ever dawned on you that over many thousand of years of
gathering anything that was edible someone during mankinds evolution
would have found Alder seed and some selection would have taken place
if it was of any food value.

In article ,
Dave Hill wrote:

I am trying to develop alder as a grain crop. One of the things I want
is bigger seeds.

Yes. As people have commented before, good luck, because you will
need it!

So, how do tree seeds normally spread? In the case of hazel, oak, etc,
obviously birds and squirrels, and they are the right size to be
attractive to these creatures. Alder seeds seem too small.

Birch is related, and they are distributed by the wind for quite
a long way, and can be a real pain. Naturally, that selects against
becoming large. I don't know about alder.

Has it ever dawned on you that over many thousand of years of
gathering anything that was edible someone during mankinds evolution
would have found Alder seed and some selection would have taken place
if it was of any food value.

Yes. That's irrelevant. Some plants have been chosen for agriculture
and others haven't and, in many cases it's completely unclear why.

Goosefoot is edible, both in leaf and seed, and was eaten by the
neolithic peoples as seed at least. Now, how many cultivated forms
of that do you know?

Some widely-grown plants, including hazel and walnut, are essentially
the same as the wild forms. A little selection has taken place, but
not enough to make much of a change.

And I could go on.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

In message
wrote:

In article
ps.com,
Dave Hill wrote:

I am trying to develop alder as a grain crop. One of the things I want
is bigger seeds.

Yes. As people have commented before, good luck, because you will
need it!

So, how do tree seeds normally spread? In the case of hazel, oak, etc,
obviously birds and squirrels, and they are the right size to be
attractive to these creatures. Alder seeds seem too small.

Birch is related, and they are distributed by the wind for quite
a long way, and can be a real pain. Naturally, that selects against
becoming large. I don't know about alder.

Has it ever dawned on you that over many thousand of years of
gathering anything that was edible someone during mankinds evolution
would have found Alder seed and some selection would have taken place
if it was of any food value.

Yes. That's irrelevant. Some plants have been chosen for agriculture
and others haven't and, in many cases it's completely unclear why.

Goosefoot is edible, both in leaf and seed, and was eaten by the
neolithic peoples as seed at least. Now, how many cultivated forms
of that do you know?

Some widely-grown plants, including hazel and walnut, are essentially
the same as the wild forms. A little selection has taken place, but
not enough to make much of a change.

And I could go on.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Well, I toyed with the idea of sedges. They have heads very like
grasses. Maize is almost unique among the grasses in having heads at
intervals up the stem, which makes it possible to have a plant which
produces a lot, but isn't bent over by all that weight at the top.
That comes naturally with sedges. Just to make the "right" choice is
huge task. I have chosen on a "hunch". I am impressed by the tree's
vigour.

Michael Bell


--

But didn't it take a very long time to get from wild ancestral maize to the modern cultivated plant? Isn't it so changed from the wild ancestor that we had considerable difficulty identifying it.

I read recently that modern plant breeders using the so-called traditional method of plant breeding deliberately irradiate the plant/seed (I forget at which stage) to get random genetic mutations, which I suppose might help speed things up a bit. Though its a bit easier with small annual plants like grass, you can grow a field of it and have thousands and thousands to select from in just a year. With a tree, it takes a lot longer and they take up a lot more space.

On Sat, 05 Nov 2011 10:02:46 GMT, Michael Bell
wrote:

I am trying to develop alder as a grain crop. One of the things I want
is bigger seeds.

Thinking I might find something different I went and looked at Bolam
Lake (Northumberland) and indeed I found something different; the
seeds were the smallest I have ever seen. Why should this be? Where
can I find the opposite, big seeds?

Bolam lake is inland. Might I find bigger nearer the coast? Higher?
Lower? North? South?

But here is another way of looking at it. Bolam lake is an artificial
lake, no natural streams run into it, probably a design feature to
avoid silting. Alders typically spread by the seeds floating
downstream, that means that alder seeds can only have blown in, giving
rise the trees bearing small I find now.

So, how do tree seeds normally spread? In the case of hazel, oak, etc,
obviously birds and squirrels, and they are the right size to be
attractive to these creatures. Alder seeds seem too small.

I stumbled accidentally on a circumstance which selected for small
seeds. Can anybody think of a circumstance which selects for big alder
seeds?

Not that it answers your question, but, given that the lake is
artificial and (strangely) not fed by streams, perhaps the alders are
a human-introduced population, and a small-seeded clone or variety was
chosen by chance because it was the one available -- or, indeed,
chosen for some other character entirely.

--
Mike.

In message
Mike Lyle wrote:

On Sat, 05 Nov 2011 10:02:46 GMT, Michael Bell
wrote:

I am trying to develop alder as a grain crop. One of the things I want
is bigger seeds.

Thinking I might find something different I went and looked at Bolam
Lake (Northumberland) and indeed I found something different; the
seeds were the smallest I have ever seen. Why should this be? Where
can I find the opposite, big seeds?

Bolam lake is inland. Might I find bigger nearer the coast? Higher?
Lower? North? South?

But here is another way of looking at it. Bolam lake is an artificial
lake, no natural streams run into it, probably a design feature to
avoid silting. Alders typically spread by the seeds floating
downstream, that means that alder seeds can only have blown in, giving
rise the trees bearing small I find now.

So, how do tree seeds normally spread? In the case of hazel, oak, etc,
obviously birds and squirrels, and they are the right size to be
attractive to these creatures. Alder seeds seem too small.

I stumbled accidentally on a circumstance which selected for small
seeds. Can anybody think of a circumstance which selects for big alder
seeds?

Not that it answers your question, but, given that the lake is
artificial and (strangely) not fed by streams, perhaps the alders are
a human-introduced population, and a small-seeded clone or variety was
chosen by chance because it was the one available -- or, indeed,
chosen for some other character entirely.

Maybe. I doubt if records have been kept or indeed were ever made. But
a new thought has crossed my mind. I looked at the alders around. on
the various burns they were rather different from each other. Alders
obviously spread down the burns, so I went to the mouth of the
Wansbeck where there is scrubby woodland. I found a large variety of
alders, their ancestors obviously swept down the Wansbeck. I hope to
find interesting hybrids tomorrow.

Michael Bell

--

On Nov 5, 10:02*am, Michael Bell wrote:
I am trying to develop alder as a grain crop. One of the things I want
is bigger seeds.

Thinking I might find something different I went and looked at Bolam
Lake (Northumberland) and indeed I found something different; the
seeds were the smallest I have ever seen. Why should this be? Where
can I find the opposite, big seeds?

Bolam lake is inland. Might I find bigger nearer the coast? Higher?
Lower? North? South?

But here is another way of looking at it. Bolam lake is an artificial
lake, no natural streams run into it, probably a design feature to
avoid silting. Alders typically spread by the seeds floating
downstream, that means that alder seeds can only have blown in, giving
rise the trees bearing small I find now.

So, how do tree seeds normally spread? In the case of hazel, oak, etc,
obviously birds and squirrels, and they are the right size to be
attractive to these creatures. Alder seeds seem too small.

I stumbled accidentally on a circumstance which selected for small
seeds. Can anybody think of a circumstance which selects for big alder
seeds?

Michael Bell

--


All our trees have local sub-varieties which if left alone can vary
over a few miles. There was an influx of Polish whips a few years
back I remember that were entirely unsuited to our climate.