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Old 06-02-2012, 12:31 PM posted to uk.rec.gardening
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Default Outdoor thermostat and pond heater

Management is concerned that the goldfish in the pond are, as last year,
going to die if the pond is frozen over for anything more than a few
hours, so it looks as though I need a heater, a thermostat to turn the
heater on when the temperature drops to ~0șC, and an outdoor socket.

Toolstation do a suitable socket
(http://www.toolstation.com/shop/p77440), Seapets sell a heater
(http://www.seapets.co.uk/products/po...ef=googlebase),
but I can't find a thermostat.

Anyone able to suggest a source for the thermostat? Comments on the
socket and heater would also be welcome.

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Old 06-02-2012, 01:00 PM posted to uk.rec.gardening
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Default Outdoor thermostat and pond heater

F wrote:
Management is concerned that the goldfish in the pond are, as last year,
going to die if the pond is frozen over for anything more than a few
hours, so it looks as though I need a heater, a thermostat to turn the
heater on when the temperature drops to ~0șC, and an outdoor socket.


A quicker and fairly effective passive device would consist of a largish
chunk of polystyrene packaging with a modest hole in it vertically and
another piece loosely on top so that the water under the float doesn't
see open sky but air can still get in. The float bobbing about will
delay freezing a fair bit. You may have to adjust the bouyancy and shape
for optimum results. A black rubber ball works in a similar fashion
although it also works better when under a polystyrene cover.

Toolstation do a suitable socket
(http://www.toolstation.com/shop/p77440), Seapets sell a heater
(http://www.seapets.co.uk/products/po...ef=googlebase),
but I can't find a thermostat.

Anyone able to suggest a source for the thermostat? Comments on the
socket and heater would also be welcome.


I'd go for a passive solution first.
Don't whatever you do break the ice with a hammer!

Regards,
Martin Brown
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Old 06-02-2012, 01:40 PM posted to uk.rec.gardening
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Default Outdoor thermostat and pond heater

On Mon, 06 Feb 2012 12:31:44 +0000, F [email protected] wrote:

Management is concerned that the goldfish in the pond are, as last year,
going to die if the pond is frozen over for anything more than a few
hours, so it looks as though I need a heater, a thermostat to turn the
heater on when the temperature drops to ~0șC, and an outdoor socket.

Toolstation do a suitable socket
(http://www.toolstation.com/shop/p77440), Seapets sell a heater
(http://www.seapets.co.uk/products/po...ef=googlebase),
but I can't find a thermostat.

Anyone able to suggest a source for the thermostat? Comments on the
socket and heater would also be welcome.


The first thing to remember is that the socket will probably need to
be fitted by an appropriately (Part P) qualified electrician. You've
presumably checked that the cable on the heater will be long enough to
run from socket location to pond (surprising how many people forget
that) as you won't be able to use an extension lead outdoors. An
alternative is the Blagdon Powersafe system which is intended for DIY
installation though isn't cheap! (see
http://www.blagdonthepondmasters.co....ucts/index.asp)

I've never heard of an in-line thermostat of the type you'll need
though in the days when I had fish, nearly 20 years ago, I just
plugged the heater in and left it on all the time - electricity was a
lot cheaper then - as it had its own thermostat. Might be worth
checking with Seapets to see if the one you're looking at has any sort
of in-built thermostatic control.

Otherwise, if no-one else in this group can help, try asking in uk.diy
where there are lots of helpful electricians (they'll also be able to
give definitive info on how the Part P regulations will affect you).

Cheers, Jake
=======================================
Urgling happily from the dryer end of Swansea Bay where
the four seasons are salt,pepper,mustard and vinegar.
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Old 06-02-2012, 05:07 PM posted to uk.rec.gardening
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Default Outdoor thermostat and pond heater

On Feb 6, 1:40*pm, Jake [email protected] wrote:
On Mon, 06 Feb 2012 12:31:44 +0000, F [email protected] wrote:
Management is concerned that the goldfish in the pond are, as last year,
going to die if the pond is frozen over for anything more than a few
hours, so it looks as though I need a heater, a thermostat to turn the
heater on when the temperature drops to ~0șC, and an outdoor socket.


Toolstation do a suitable socket
(http://www.toolstation.com/shop/p77440), Seapets sell a heater
(http://www.seapets.co.uk/products/po...nt/pond-l....),
but I can't find a thermostat.


Anyone able to suggest a source for the thermostat? Comments on the
socket and heater would also be welcome.


The first thing to remember is that the socket will probably need to
be fitted by an appropriately (Part P) qualified electrician. You've
presumably checked that the cable on the heater will be long enough to
run from socket location to pond (surprising how many people forget
that) as you won't be able to use an extension lead outdoors. An
alternative is the Blagdon Powersafe system which is intended for DIY
installation though isn't cheap! (seehttp://www.blagdonthepondmasters.co.uk/products/index.asp)

I've never heard of an in-line thermostat of the type you'll need
though in the days when I had fish, nearly 20 years ago, I just
plugged the heater in and left it on all the time - electricity was a
lot cheaper then - as it had its own thermostat. Might be worth
checking with Seapets to see if the one you're looking at has any sort
of in-built thermostatic control.

Otherwise, if no-one else in this group can help, try asking in uk.diy
where there are lots of helpful electricians (they'll also be able to
give definitive info on how the Part P regulations will affect you).

Cheers, Jake
=======================================
Urgling happily from the dryer end of Swansea Bay where
the four seasons are salt,pepper,mustard and vinegar.


You could try an Aquarium Heater place it horizontaly a couple of
inches below the surface near the side of the pool, it should keep a
small area ice free.
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Old 06-02-2012, 05:35 PM posted to uk.rec.gardening
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Default Outdoor thermostat and pond heater

On Feb 6, 12:31*pm, F [email protected] wrote:
Management is concerned that the goldfish in the pond are, as last year,
going to die if the pond is frozen over for anything more than a few
hours, so it looks as though I need a heater, a thermostat to turn the
heater on when the temperature drops to ~0șC, and an outdoor socket.

Toolstation do a suitable socket
(http://www.toolstation.com/shop/p77440), Seapets sell a heater
(http://www.seapets.co.uk/products/po...ent/pond-l...),
but I can't find a thermostat.

Anyone able to suggest a source for the thermostat? Comments on the
socket and heater would also be welcome.


A pool aerator keeps it ice free for a few degrees of frost. They
often have quite a long pipe anduse much less electricity.
My koi survived last Winter no problems.


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Old 09-02-2012, 07:06 AM posted to uk.rec.gardening
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Default Outdoor thermostat and pond heater

On Feb 6, 5:35*pm, harry wrote:
On Feb 6, 12:31*pm, F [email protected] wrote:

Management is concerned that the goldfish in the pond are, as last year,
going to die if the pond is frozen over for anything more than a few
hours, so it looks as though I need a heater, a thermostat to turn the
heater on when the temperature drops to ~0șC, and an outdoor socket.


Toolstation do a suitable socket
(http://www.toolstation.com/shop/p77440), Seapets sell a heater
(http://www.seapets.co.uk/products/po...nt/pond-l....),
but I can't find a thermostat.


Anyone able to suggest a source for the thermostat? Comments on the
socket and heater would also be welcome.


A pool aerator keeps it ice free for a few degrees of frost. *They
often have quite a long pipe anduse much less electricity.
My koi survived last Winter no problems.

I am using a small fountain, which has been keeping the area around it
ice free for several days now. The rest of the pond is well frozen
over. There is a long extension lead running from the house and the
end of it, which is connected to the fountain lead, is well protected
from rain and damp by a cover.

Doug.
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Old 09-02-2012, 10:33 AM posted to uk.rec.gardening
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Default Outdoor thermostat and pond heater

On 06/02/2012 17:35 harry wrote:

A pool aerator keeps it ice free for a few degrees of frost. They
often have quite a long pipe anduse much less electricity.
My koi survived last Winter no problems.


Thanks. Care to provide a name or link? Google doesn't seem to want to
throw up anything useful.

My only concern is that it would tend to turn the water over and lose
the 4șC 'warm' layer at the bottom when the top is freezing. Is this an
issue at all?

--
F


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Old 09-02-2012, 11:04 AM posted to uk.rec.gardening
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Default Outdoor thermostat and pond heater

On Thu, 09 Feb 2012 10:33:47 +0000, F wrote:

My only concern is that it would tend to turn the water over and lose
the 4șC 'warm' layer at the bottom when the top is freezing. Is this an
issue at all?


Could be avoided by having the airstone only an inch or so below the
surface? It's the movement that stops the freezing, hence people
keeping waterfalls or fountains running.

--
Cheers
Dave.



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Old 09-02-2012, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F View Post
Management is concerned that the goldfish in the pond are, as last year,
going to die if the pond is frozen over for anything more than a few
hours, so it looks as though I need a heater, a thermostat to turn the
heater on when the temperature drops to ~0șC, and an outdoor socket.

Toolstation do a suitable socket
(Toolstation Electrical IP66 Rated MK IP66 Masterseal Plus Sockets, Seapets sell a heater
(Blagdon Affinity Ice Vent Pond Heater,
but I can't find a thermostat.

Anyone able to suggest a source for the thermostat? Comments on the
socket and heater would also be welcome.
I wouldn't bother with a thermostat, if it's a small pond just get a floating pond heater and turn it on when the weather looks like it's going to freeze, the temperature for goldfish isn't that critical, koi would be a different matter.
You could use a cheap plug timer and have it set to go on and off for a few hours a day.
Goldfish are quite hardy, if it freezes up just poor a kettle of boiling water on the ice to create a hole to prevent any build up of gasses. They'll be OK for a few days even if it does freeze over.
__________________
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I don't like 'em myself! They're pretty bad.
I grieve over them on long winter evenings."
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Old 09-02-2012, 09:33 PM posted to uk.rec.gardening
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"Doghouse Riley" wrote in
message news
I wouldn't bother with a thermostat, if it's a small pond just get a

floating pond heater and turn it on when the weather looks like it's
going to freeze, the temperature for goldfish isn't that critical, koi
would be a different matter.
Doghouse Riley


Surely Koi won't be a problem as they should have a deep pond in which to
live. A pal of mine had a six ft deep pond which held some really impresive
Koi.

At this depth a bit of surface ice would cause no problems.

Bill




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Old 10-02-2012, 08:25 PM
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The idea that there can be a layer of warmer water at the bottom of a pool is a myth. It won't happen in normal koi pools of around five or six feet in depth. You'd need to have something well in excess of 3 metres.
The running of filters and the movement of wish would prevent that happening if it did anyway. Deep pools will benefit from the transfer of some heat from the surrounding earth, which is always warmer than surface ground temperatures

My koi pool is five feet deep, but it has a swimming pool cover, the filter is insulated in a room in my garage and I've a small heater in the pool. I'm maintaining +6c. I wouldn't want it to go lower than that.

Many koi in their first year won't survive sustained temperatures close freezing point for long. Larger fish may, some won't, there's no hard and fast rule with koi, so best to be on the safe side.
Goldfish are a "completely different kettle of fish."
__________________
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I don't like 'em myself! They're pretty bad.
I grieve over them on long winter evenings."
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Old 11-02-2012, 05:36 AM posted to uk.rec.gardening
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Default Outdoor thermostat and pond heater

On Feb 10, 8:25*pm, Doghouse Riley Doghouse.Riley.
wrote:
Bill Grey;949837 Wrote:









"Doghouse Riley" wrote in
messagenews I wouldn't bother with a thermostat, if it's a small pond just get a-
floating pond heater and turn it on when the weather looks like it's
going to freeze, the temperature for goldfish isn't that critical, koi
would be a different matter.
Doghouse Riley-


Surely Koi won't be a problem as they should have a deep pond in which
to
live. *A pal of mine had a six ft deep pond which held some really
impresive
Koi.


At this depth a bit of surface ice would cause no problems.


Bill


The idea that there can be a layer of warmer water at the bottom of a
pool is a myth. It won't happen in normal koi pools of around five or
six feet in depth. You'd need to have something well in excess of 3
metres.
The running of filters and the movement of wish would prevent that
happening if it did anyway. Deep pools will benefit from the transfer of
some heat from the surrounding earth, which is always warmer than
surface ground temperatures

My koi pool *is five feet deep, but it has a swimming pool cover, the
filter is insulated in a room in my garage and I've a small heater in
the pool. I'm maintaining +6c. I wouldn't want it to go lower than
that.

Many koi in their first year won't survive sustained temperatures close
freezing point for long. Larger fish may, some won't, there's no hard
and fast rule with koi, so best to be on the safe side.
Goldfish are a "completely different kettle of fish."

As a newbie to pond fish I have four shubunkin so what are their
chances with part of the pond frozen over? I thought the main problem
was lack of oxygen rather than cold. The temperature in London this
morning is somewhere between -5C and -9C, the worst yet this winter,
but my little fountain is still running, just.

Instructions on the packet are to stop feeding when the pond temp is
below 4C and the fish haven't appeared since the cold weather
started..

Doug.





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Old 11-02-2012, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug[_5_] View Post
As a newbie to pond fish I have four shubunkin so what are their
chances with part of the pond frozen over? I thought the main problem
was lack of oxygen rather than cold. The temperature in London this
morning is somewhere between -5C and -9C, the worst yet this winter,
but my little fountain is still running, just.

Instructions on the packet are to stop feeding when the pond temp is
below 4C and the fish haven't appeared since the cold weather
started..

Doug.
It's difficult to make general recommendations, I can only speak from my own knowledge and experience. Different fish can tolerate different conditions.

I've a 3000 gallon koi pool, I've a filter about six feet away from the pool in my garage, the pool and garage are parallel to each other with a four-foot pathway between. The filter is a complex of four 40 gallon tanks (old technology I built it 25 years ago) This is insulated and I've a swimming pool cover cut to fit and floating on the pool, but the filter runs 24/7 as does an Oase air pump feeding two air stones presently raise near the surface of the pool. Both are running at a reduced "winter rate." I'm also running a 300watt aquarium heater 24/7. We live south of Manchester and my pool has so far never been below 6C.

http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/1592/p1040070s.jpg

Fish will reach a dormant stage as the temperature drops, they will stop feeding and sit on the bottom of the pool conserving energy. you don't want a situation where you are providing them with food that will remain undigested in their stomachs.
I'd try to keep an area your pool free of ice with a few kettles of boiling water. I don't know how big is yours but you don't want to effect a rapid change in temperature, fish can react badly to that as they will a rapid change in water quality.
__________________
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I don't like 'em myself! They're pretty bad.
I grieve over them on long winter evenings."
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Old 11-02-2012, 08:55 PM posted to uk.rec.gardening
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In message , Doghouse Riley
writes
The idea that there can be a layer of warmer water at the bottom of a
pool is a myth. It won't happen in normal koi pools of around five or
six feet in depth. You'd need to have something well in excess of 3
metres.

It' snot a myth - it's a scientific fact that the density of water
increases as it cools down to about 4 C then it decreases as the water
cools further. (Hope I've got that the right way round) In this respect
water is unique. That means in a natural pond the water at the bottom
will be at 4C with the colder water at the top until it is so cold that
the whole lot freezes.
However as you say disturbing this with pumps running will interrupt
this natural protective mechanism for pond life.
Isn't nature amazing.
--
hugh
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Old 12-02-2012, 08:06 AM posted to uk.rec.gardening
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Default Outdoor thermostat and pond heater

On Feb 11, 8:55*pm, hugh ] wrote:
In message , Doghouse Riley
writesThe idea that there can be a layer of warmer water at the bottom of a
pool is a myth. It won't happen in normal koi pools of around five or
six feet in depth. You'd need to have something well in excess of 3
metres.


It' snot a myth - it's a scientific fact that the density of water
increases as it cools down to about 4 C then it decreases as the water
cools further. (Hope I've got that the right way round) In this respect
water is unique. That means in a natural pond the water at the bottom
will be at 4C with the colder water at the top until it is so cold that
the whole lot freezes.
However as you say disturbing this with pumps running will interrupt
this natural protective mechanism for pond life.
Isn't nature amazing.

However a fountain will oxygenate the water and keep an area around it
free from freezing over. I suspect the fountain will freeze before the
bottom of the pond does.

I checked my pond temp yesterday and it was 6C at the fountain outlet,
with the rest of the pond frozen over. I left just a few wheatgerm
pellets around the fountain which appeared to be eaten later, after
several days of not feeding. I hope the freeze will be over today and
tomorrow, as predicted, as my pond filter needs cleaning. My pond is
quite small, roughly 3m x 2m and 1m deep but with quite a lot of
vegitation.

Doug.



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