I flipped through last night to his garden makeover show, can't remember
what it's called, just as he was plunking a large tree into the ground,
which happily turned out to be a Gleditsia and not a Robinia, many of
which are dying miserably around here now, a large one near us that had
been resisting is currently nearly leafless.

He did a decent job planting, though I've never actually used one of
those watering gizmos, and people I respect hold that it's a bad idea to
have the tree circled forever with a whopping plastic tube.

But, then he wafted a little bit of mycorrhizae into the hole, and gave a
not great explanation of what it does (they are symbiotic with the roots,
providing elements and moisture in exchange for food, as I understand it
and simplifying, which of course AT was doing to).

The thing about mycorrhizae is that you need a pretty great whopping lot
of it for a tree that size, and the stuff is expensive.

I now use mycorrhizae on young transplants and medium sized plants going
in the ground, or bare root, but I'm not sure the cost would be justified
with a tree that size.

I wonder if anyone else here is using mycorrhizal fungi here. It is,
BTW, used by many maple growers now. Here's a link:

http://www.rhs.org.uk/About-Us/Busin...ensing/garden/
Rootgrow



--
Gardening in Lower Normandy

"Emery Davis" wrote

I flipped through last night to his garden makeover show, can't remember
what it's called, just as he was plunking a large tree into the ground,
which happily turned out to be a Gleditsia and not a Robinia, many of
which are dying miserably around here now, a large one near us that had
been resisting is currently nearly leafless.

He did a decent job planting, though I've never actually used one of
those watering gizmos, and people I respect hold that it's a bad idea to
have the tree circled forever with a whopping plastic tube.

But, then he wafted a little bit of mycorrhizae into the hole, and gave a
not great explanation of what it does (they are symbiotic with the roots,
providing elements and moisture in exchange for food, as I understand it
and simplifying, which of course AT was doing to).

The thing about mycorrhizae is that you need a pretty great whopping lot
of it for a tree that size, and the stuff is expensive.

I now use mycorrhizae on young transplants and medium sized plants going
in the ground, or bare root, but I'm not sure the cost would be justified
with a tree that size.

I wonder if anyone else here is using mycorrhizal fungi here. It is,
BTW, used by many maple growers now. Here's a link:

http://www.rhs.org.uk/About-Us/Busin...ensing/garden/
Rootgrow




I used that stuff on one of four cherry trees we have planted over the last
few years. When the weather got hot and dry that was the only tree that
appeared to suffer, wonder why, as another planted the same winter without
the mycorrhizae showed no problems.
--
Regards. Bob Hobden.
Posted to this Newsgroup from the W of London, UK

On Wed, 10 Jul 2013 18:21:30 +0100, Bob Hobden wrote:

I used that stuff on one of four cherry trees we have planted over the
last few years. When the weather got hot and dry that was the only tree
that appeared to suffer, wonder why, as another planted the same winter
without the mycorrhizae showed no problems.

Hard to say, sounds like the luck of the draw. I certainly wouldn't say
(sadly) that every tree potted or planted with mycorrhizae thrives, but
in general they seem a lot more resistant and vigorous.



--
Gardening in Lower Normandy

On 10/07/2013 17:30, Emery Davis wrote:
I flipped through last night to his garden makeover show, can't remember
what it's called, just as he was plunking a large tree into the ground,
which happily turned out to be a Gleditsia and not a Robinia, many of
which are dying miserably around here now, a large one near us that had
been resisting is currently nearly leafless.

He did a decent job planting, though I've never actually used one of
those watering gizmos, and people I respect hold that it's a bad idea to
have the tree circled forever with a whopping plastic tube.

But, then he wafted a little bit of mycorrhizae into the hole, and gave a
not great explanation of what it does (they are symbiotic with the roots,
providing elements and moisture in exchange for food, as I understand it
and simplifying, which of course AT was doing to).

The thing about mycorrhizae is that you need a pretty great whopping lot
of it for a tree that size, and the stuff is expensive.

I had a look at the spreadsheet at Rootgrow's website and saw how much
they recommended.

But one of their FAQs is "What happens if I over or under dose?". The
reply is:

"The rootgrow application rates have been carefully worked out to make
rootgrow as economic and reliable as possible. If you overdose you will
simply waste money and confer no additional benefit to the plant. If you
under-dose colonisation will be slower maybe 1-2 months rather than 2-4
weeks."

If that is accurate (and they don't seem certain as to what the
timescale really is!), why not save money by underdosing? Would 2 - 4
weeks make a real difference? Seems to me you could experiment with
varying the dose with a few identical seedlings to see if there really
is any difference after a couple of months.

--

Jeff

On Wed, 10 Jul 2013 20:26:02 +0100, Jeff Layman wrote:

If that is accurate (and they don't seem certain as to what the
timescale really is!), why not save money by underdosing? Would 2 - 4
weeks make a real difference? Seems to me you could experiment with
varying the dose with a few identical seedlings to see if there really
is any difference after a couple of months.

Well, you do want to help the plant get established, sometimes the first
couple of months can be critical. I do underdose, but not as much as AT
did. That was a large tree, probably 70l pot, he tossed a little
handful the hole.

I think you'd need more than a few seedlings to really do a proper test,
seedlings vary so much anyway in terms of health and vigour.

Have you tried the stuff, Jeff?



--
Gardening in Lower Normandy

On 10/07/2013 22:28, Emery Davis wrote:
On Wed, 10 Jul 2013 20:26:02 +0100, Jeff Layman wrote:

If that is accurate (and they don't seem certain as to what the
timescale really is!), why not save money by underdosing? Would 2 - 4
weeks make a real difference? Seems to me you could experiment with
varying the dose with a few identical seedlings to see if there really
is any difference after a couple of months.

Well, you do want to help the plant get established, sometimes the first
couple of months can be critical. I do underdose, but not as much as AT
did. That was a large tree, probably 70l pot, he tossed a little
handful the hole.

I think you'd need more than a few seedlings to really do a proper test,
seedlings vary so much anyway in terms of health and vigour.

Have you tried the stuff, Jeff?



I wonder what would happen if you broadcast it over a bed, rotovated it
in then planted the bed.

In article ,
Chris Hogg wrote:
On Wed, 10 Jul 2013 18:21:30 +0100, "Bob Hobden"
wrote:
"Emery Davis" wrote

The thing about mycorrhizae is that you need a pretty great whopping lot
of it for a tree that size, and the stuff is expensive.

I'm surprised at that. Never used the stuff, but I would have thought
that being a fungus, provided the soil conditions were favourable and
not hostile to it, the fungi would increase and multiply once the soil
had been inoculated by even a fairly small amount. After all, it's not
like a fertiliser, that slowly diminishes with time as it's used up or
leached out. The Rootgrow FAQ says "If you under-dose colonisation
will be slower maybe 1-2 months rather than 2-4 weeks", which makes
sense. Perhaps AT was aiming for long-term soil improvement rather
than instant effect.

You are right. From the Web site, it's hard to tell where on the
snake oil to miracle compound spectrum that is. They do say that
mycorrhizal fungi are host-specific, but don't give much of a
clue as to which plants would benefit, and their implication is
that their mixture is suitable for most plants. That sticks in
my gullet from what I know about mycorrhizal fungi. Also, some
mycorrhizal fungi can be pathogenic under some circumstances!

I didn't see a reference to a controlled experiment, either, though
there is at least one in progress:

http://www.sustainable-edale.org.uk/.../introduction/


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On 10/07/2013 22:28, Emery Davis wrote:
On Wed, 10 Jul 2013 20:26:02 +0100, Jeff Layman wrote:

If that is accurate (and they don't seem certain as to what the
timescale really is!), why not save money by underdosing? Would 2 - 4
weeks make a real difference? Seems to me you could experiment with
varying the dose with a few identical seedlings to see if there really
is any difference after a couple of months.

Well, you do want to help the plant get established, sometimes the first
couple of months can be critical. I do underdose, but not as much as AT
did. That was a large tree, probably 70l pot, he tossed a little
handful the hole.

I think you'd need more than a few seedlings to really do a proper test,
seedlings vary so much anyway in terms of health and vigour.

Have you tried the stuff, Jeff?

No, but I've thought about it.

My main interest is greenhouse-grown Western Australian plants, and
those (particularly the Proteaceae) have very specific mycorrhizal
associations! They can take a very long time from seed to get going,
although after a few years they seem quite happy and flower well. I
wonder if they somehow adapt to our mycorrhizae?. I thought it quite
interesting that (according to FAQs at the Rootgrow website), ericaceous
plants won't benefit from Rootgrow. Maybe plants with very specific
requirements (acid pH/low calcium; low phosphate) need very specific
mycorrhizae to thrive. I see the FAQs say that Japanese Acers may
benefit. I assume you've found that as you are /The/. Acer man!

Maybe I should get some Rootgrow and try it - I've two or three Acer
palmatum cultivars to put in. Got a Pieris too, and even though
ericaceous, the FAQs say that should benefit. So perhaps it's time for
the taxonomists to reclassify it, methinks! ;-)

--

Jeff

On Thu, 11 Jul 2013 09:49:00 +0100, nmm1 wrote:

In article ,
Chris Hogg wrote:
On Wed, 10 Jul 2013 18:21:30 +0100, "Bob Hobden"
wrote:
"Emery Davis" wrote

The thing about mycorrhizae is that you need a pretty great whopping
lot of it for a tree that size, and the stuff is expensive.

I'm surprised at that. Never used the stuff, but I would have thought
that being a fungus, provided the soil conditions were favourable and
not hostile to it, the fungi would increase and multiply once the soil
had been inoculated by even a fairly small amount. After all, it's not
like a fertiliser, that slowly diminishes with time as it's used up or
leached out. The Rootgrow FAQ says "If you under-dose colonisation will
be slower maybe 1-2 months rather than 2-4 weeks", which makes sense.
Perhaps AT was aiming for long-term soil improvement rather than instant
effect.

You are right. From the Web site, it's hard to tell where on the snake
oil to miracle compound spectrum that is. They do say that mycorrhizal
fungi are host-specific, but don't give much of a clue as to which
plants would benefit, and their implication is that their mixture is
suitable for most plants. That sticks in my gullet from what I know
about mycorrhizal fungi. Also, some mycorrhizal fungi can be pathogenic
under some circumstances!

You want the fungus to be all around the roots, not just a little on one
side, which is what AT did. I don't know how long it would take to
propagate to the other side, but it could be a long time.

There is a lot of literature available with simple search of google
scholar, so if you're interested looking further than the Rootgrow web
site is probably a good idea. Rootgrow is, perhaps understandably, in
the business of selling a product, so caveat emptor applies accordingly.
It's certainly correct that not all treatments are appropriate for all
plants, which have broader or narrower specific symbioses; but of course
the Rootgrow people will be happier if they sell more, regardless of
whether your plants do better.

I'm all for AT telling the public about a product that, until quite
recently, has been difficult to obtain in consumer appropriate
quantities. But based on my experience he applied the product incorrectly.

-E
--
Gardening in Lower Normandy

In article ,
Emery Davis wrote:

You are right. From the Web site, it's hard to tell where on the snake
oil to miracle compound spectrum that is. They do say that mycorrhizal
fungi are host-specific, but don't give much of a clue as to which
plants would benefit, and their implication is that their mixture is
suitable for most plants. That sticks in my gullet from what I know
about mycorrhizal fungi. Also, some mycorrhizal fungi can be pathogenic
under some circumstances!

There is a lot of literature available with simple search of google
scholar, so if you're interested looking further than the Rootgrow web
site is probably a good idea. Rootgrow is, perhaps understandably, in
the business of selling a product, so caveat emptor applies accordingly.
It's certainly correct that not all treatments are appropriate for all
plants, which have broader or narrower specific symbioses; but of course
the Rootgrow people will be happier if they sell more, regardless of
whether your plants do better.

I would actually use a more professional search, but that's not the
point. The question isn't whether mycorrhizal treatments can be of
benefit, but the properties of the Rootgrow one.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On Thu, 11 Jul 2013 10:25:34 +0100, nmm1 wrote:

I would actually use a more professional search, but that's not the
point.



The question isn't whether mycorrhizal treatments can be of benefit,
but
the properties of the Rootgrow one.

Understood. The important properties for me is it's available and has a
good endo mix, and is widely reported to be appropriate for Acer ssp.



--
Gardening in Lower Normandy

On Thu, 11 Jul 2013 10:04:59 +0100, Jeff Layman wrote:

Have you tried the stuff, Jeff?

No, but I've thought about it.

My main interest is greenhouse-grown Western Australian plants, and
those (particularly the Proteaceae) have very specific mycorrhizal
associations!

Interesting! Southwestern, or the real desert? It might not be easy to
get the right mycorrhizae, for sure.

They can take a very long time from seed to get going, although after a
few years they seem quite happy and flower well. I wonder if they
somehow adapt to our mycorrhizae?. I thought it quite interesting that

I don't think that's the way it works, there's a long period of
adaptation, surely over many generations at least. But plants can
function without myc and grow even in sterilised soil, although they may
not be at their best.

(according to FAQs at the Rootgrow website), ericaceous plants won't
benefit from Rootgrow. Maybe plants with very specific requirements
(acid pH/low calcium; low phosphate) need very specific mycorrhizae to
thrive. I see the FAQs say that Japanese Acers may benefit. I assume
you've found that as you are /The/. Acer man!

Heh. I don't have a patch on some people I know, who have collections
numbering in the thousands! But yes, Acers need various endo-myc, which
is found in Rootgrow. Also, they're not particularly acid dependent and
will do well even in slightly alkaline soil, with a few exceptions.


Maybe I should get some Rootgrow and try it - I've two or three Acer
palmatum cultivars to put in. Got a Pieris too, and even though
ericaceous, the FAQs say that should benefit. So perhaps it's time for
the taxonomists to reclassify it, methinks! ;-)

The palmatums will definitely appreciate the Rootgrow. As for taxonomy,
best I not get started. .

Meanwhile I'd better get out there and water, it is extremely dry and
many maples are starting to suffer.

cheers,

-E



--
Gardening in Lower Normandy

On 11/07/2013 16:16, Emery Davis wrote:
On Thu, 11 Jul 2013 10:04:59 +0100, Jeff Layman wrote:

My main interest is greenhouse-grown Western Australian plants, and
those (particularly the Proteaceae) have very specific mycorrhizal
associations!

Interesting! Southwestern, or the real desert? It might not be easy to
get the right mycorrhizae, for sure.

More-or-less anything SW of a line between Kalbarri and Esperance. My
favourite areas are south and south east of Geraldton, and The Barrens
in Fitzgerald River NP.

They can take a very long time from seed to get going, although after a
few years they seem quite happy and flower well. I wonder if they
somehow adapt to our mycorrhizae?. I thought it quite interesting that

I don't think that's the way it works, there's a long period of
adaptation, surely over many generations at least. But plants can
function without myc and grow even in sterilised soil, although they may
not be at their best.

I'm sure you're right.

(according to FAQs at the Rootgrow website), ericaceous plants won't
benefit from Rootgrow. Maybe plants with very specific requirements
(acid pH/low calcium; low phosphate) need very specific mycorrhizae to
thrive. I see the FAQs say that Japanese Acers may benefit. I assume
you've found that as you are /The/. Acer man!

Heh. I don't have a patch on some people I know, who have collections
numbering in the thousands! But yes, Acers need various endo-myc, which
is found in Rootgrow. Also, they're not particularly acid dependent and
will do well even in slightly alkaline soil, with a few exceptions.


Maybe I should get some Rootgrow and try it - I've two or three Acer
palmatum cultivars to put in. Got a Pieris too, and even though
ericaceous, the FAQs say that should benefit. So perhaps it's time for
the taxonomists to reclassify it, methinks! ;-)

The palmatums will definitely appreciate the Rootgrow. As for taxonomy,
best I not get started. .

I know exactly what you mean...

Meanwhile I'd better get out there and water, it is extremely dry and
many maples are starting to suffer.

Not just the maples, I bet. Going to be a hot one this weekend. My
rainwater butts are starting to run low, so it'll have to be tapwater
for everything except extreme calcifuges. We have hard water here
(around 95 mg Ca/l).

--

Jeff