Not so long ago I told Ray that I'd read of a wholesale nursery going
belly up. Today, he learned a bit more about it and said it was
because it had a £3 million order from a supermarket chain which
suddenly decided to halve that order. Then it said that if they potted
the remaining order on, they might buy them. They didn't.
Personally, I don't understand why anyone puts their entire future and
livelihood into the hands of one customer. But neither do I understand
the morals of a customer who will do that to a supplier. The more I
hear of this sort of thing, the less inclined I am to use supermarkets
and am minded to go back to the old days of shopping at small
individual shops for every need, wherever possible. It's less
convenient, it takes longer and it may well be a bit more expensive but
if supermarkets can do this to their suppliers, it's a short step from
that to "you can only buy what we offer you, there is nothing else" and
all our high street shops are gone and so are our choices.
--

Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.com
South Devon
www.helpforheroes.org.uk

Assuming that I'm not in Sacha's killfile along with half of Usenet.

Sacha wrote:
Not so long ago I told Ray that I'd read of a wholesale nursery going
belly up. Today, he learned a bit more about it and said it was
because it had a £3 million order from a supermarket chain which
suddenly decided to halve that order. Then it said that if they
potted the remaining order on, they might buy them. They didn't.

If "Ray" had have dug a little deeper, he would probably learned that this
is a standard a clause in the contract between the two parties that allowed
them to do that - and the nursery owners would have been well aware if it
and agreed to it. It has happened before with farmers having fields of
crops that had been ordered two years previously refused. It simply protects
the supermarkets profits if the produce is not selling to well in their
stores.

Personally, I don't understand why anyone puts their entire future and
livelihood into the hands of one customer.

There are many reasons for doing so and greed is one of those - or they
simply take a gamble.

But neither do I understand the morals of a customer who will do that to a
supplier.

Then you are very naive as a business woman, as it happens every day -
particularly if those customers/businesses carry a great deal of 'clout'
within their areas of expertise. After all, like you, they are only there to
make a profit any way the legally (or otherwise in some cases) they can.

The more I hear of this sort of thing, the less inclined I am to use
supermarkets and am minded to go back to the old days of shopping at
small individual shops for every need, wherever possible. It's less
convenient, it takes longer and it may well be a bit more expensive
but if supermarkets can do this to their suppliers, it's a short step
from that to "you can only buy what we offer you, there is nothing
else" and all our high street shops are gone and so are our choices.

As for going "back to the old days of shopping" do you really think you will
be better off? You will in fact find that many of those "small individual
shops" will be unable to supply your "every need" as it takes a great deal
capital tied up in stock sitting on their shelves on the off-chance that
enough customers will walk through the door to buy it - and many are unable
to do that. Customers are really rather fickle with what they actually want
or need.

How much capital do you have tied up in stock - and how much of that stock
goes to waste?

"Sacha" wrote

Not so long ago I told Ray that I'd read of a wholesale nursery going belly
up. Today, he learned a bit more about it and said it was because it had a
£3 million order from a supermarket chain which suddenly decided to halve
that order. Then it said that if they potted the remaining order on, they
might buy them. They didn't. Personally, I don't understand why anyone
puts their entire future and livelihood into the hands of one customer.
But neither do I understand the morals of a customer who will do that to a
supplier. The more I hear of this sort of thing, the less inclined I am to
use supermarkets and am minded to go back to the old days of shopping at
small individual shops for every need, wherever possible. It's less
convenient, it takes longer and it may well be a bit more expensive but if
supermarkets can do this to their suppliers, it's a short step from that to
"you can only buy what we offer you, there is nothing else" and all our
high street shops are gone and so are our choices.

This has been standard in most Supermarket contracts for years. Indeed if
they decide to do a BOGOFF for example then they halve the price they pay to
the supplier in most cases.

--
Regards. Bob Hobden.
Posted to this Newsgroup from the W of London, UK

On 31/08/13 23:35, Sacha wrote:
Not so long ago I told Ray that I'd read of a wholesale nursery going belly up. Today, he learned a bit more about it and said it was because it had a £3 million order from a supermarket chain which
suddenly decided to halve that order. Then it said that if they potted the remaining order on, they might buy them. They didn't. Personally, I don't understand why anyone puts their entire future
and livelihood into the hands of one customer. But neither do I understand the morals of a customer who will do that to a supplier. The more I hear of this sort of thing, the less inclined I am to
use supermarkets and am minded to go back to the old days of shopping at small individual shops for every need, wherever possible. It's less convenient, it takes longer and it may well be a bit more
expensive but if supermarkets can do this to their suppliers, it's a short step from that to "you can only buy what we offer you, there is nothing else" and all our high street shops are gone and so
are our choices.

That is an example of the reasons my local venison
farm won't supply supermarkets - and the farmer
told me that ~15 years ago.

I seem to remember a TV programme where a small
supplier was encouraged by a supermarket buyer to
spend vast amounts ramping up production, without
any guarantees from the supermarket. The supermarket
was then in a position to say "knock x% off or we'll
stop stocking it", and the supermarket didn't care
that it would become permanently loss-making.

It was also necessary for the small supplier to
offer the supermarket a subsidy to get shelf space,
usually in the form of an "introductory special price"

Food is now relatively much cheaper than when
I was a kid, and these examples are part of the
reason. Cut out the middleman and food becomes
more expensive (que?), as (arguably) illustrated
in your local farmer's market.

On 2013-09-01 08:47:18 +0100, Bob Hobden said:

"Sacha" wrote

Not so long ago I told Ray that I'd read of a wholesale nursery going
belly up. Today, he learned a bit more about it and said it was
because it had a £3 million order from a supermarket chain which
suddenly decided to halve that order. Then it said that if they potted
the remaining order on, they might buy them. They didn't.
Personally, I don't understand why anyone puts their entire future and
livelihood into the hands of one customer. But neither do I understand
the morals of a customer who will do that to a supplier. The more I
hear of this sort of thing, the less inclined I am to use supermarkets
and am minded to go back to the old days of shopping at small
individual shops for every need, wherever possible. It's less
convenient, it takes longer and it may well be a bit more expensive but
if supermarkets can do this to their suppliers, it's a short step from
that to "you can only buy what we offer you, there is nothing else" and
all our high street shops are gone and so are our choices.

This has been standard in most Supermarket contracts for years. Indeed
if they decide to do a BOGOFF for example then they halve the price
they pay to the supplier in most cases.

I know it's standard practice, it's the morality of it that gets me. I
entirely appreciate that the grower was very unwise but in the current
financial climate, I'm not sure he or she can be blamed for grasping a
potentially huge and maybe business-saving, order. Anyway, that's
another one gone for good, jobs, home perhaps, career over. According
to some of the reps who come in here, small nurseries, especially
wholesalers, are failing weekly.
--

Sacha
South Devon

On 01/09/2013 09:06, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 31/08/13 23:35, Sacha wrote:
Not so long ago I told Ray that I'd read of a wholesale nursery going
belly up. Today, he learned a bit more about it and said it was
because it had a £3 million order from a supermarket chain which
suddenly decided to halve that order. Then it said that if they
potted the remaining order on, they might buy them. They didn't.
Personally, I don't understand why anyone puts their entire future
and livelihood into the hands of one customer. But neither do I
understand the morals of a customer who will do that to a supplier.
The more I hear of this sort of thing, the less inclined I am to
use supermarkets and am minded to go back to the old days of shopping
at small individual shops for every need, wherever possible. It's less
convenient, it takes longer and it may well be a bit more
expensive but if supermarkets can do this to their suppliers, it's a
short step from that to "you can only buy what we offer you, there is
nothing else" and all our high street shops are gone and so
are our choices.

That is an example of the reasons my local venison
farm won't supply supermarkets - and the farmer
told me that ~15 years ago.

I seem to remember a TV programme where a small
supplier was encouraged by a supermarket buyer to
spend vast amounts ramping up production, without
any guarantees from the supermarket. The supermarket
was then in a position to say "knock x% off or we'll
stop stocking it", and the supermarket didn't care
that it would become permanently loss-making.

It was also necessary for the small supplier to
offer the supermarket a subsidy to get shelf space,
usually in the form of an "introductory special price"

Food is now relatively much cheaper than when
I was a kid, and these examples are part of the
reason. Cut out the middleman and food becomes
more expensive (que?), as (arguably) illustrated
in your local farmer's market.

I remember a guy telling me that he invested heavily in machinery to
fulfill an order from M&S. He would have been in clover had they
repeated the order, but they didn't, and nor did anyone else

In article ,
says...

Not so long ago I told Ray that I'd read of a wholesale nursery going
belly up. Today, he learned a bit more about it and said it was
because it had a £3 million order from a supermarket chain which
suddenly decided to halve that order. Then it said that if they potted
the remaining order on, they might buy them. They didn't.
Personally, I don't understand why anyone puts their entire future and
livelihood into the hands of one customer. But neither do I understand
the morals of a customer who will do that to a supplier.

Why make it about morality? It's about business, what the
supermarket can sell, to customers whose choices are led by the weather
and the economy. If there's a late cold spring, down goes the demand for
tender plug plants and GYO salad trays. When budgets are feeling the
pinch paying bills and buying food, customers may spend less on hanging
baskets or pots of bulbs in flower.

It may be very lovely for you, a comfortably off non-working
housewife with a car to spend more time during the day, and more money,
shopping in small businesses. Don't you realise it's a luxury to have
such means and opportunity, one denied to many working parents on a very
tight budget. They need to shop outside working hours. How many small
bakers, butchers and grocers stay open in the evening? Even if they
did, what does a single working parent do with the tired children as
s/he trails them a mile or two from shop to shop ? Carrying the
shopping, because small shops don't have a great big car park, and
trolleys with child seats.


Janet.

On 01/09/2013 10:57, Janet wrote:
In article ,
says...

Not so long ago I told Ray that I'd read of a wholesale nursery going
belly up. Today, he learned a bit more about it and said it was
because it had a £3 million order from a supermarket chain which
suddenly decided to halve that order. Then it said that if they potted
the remaining order on, they might buy them. They didn't.
Personally, I don't understand why anyone puts their entire future and
livelihood into the hands of one customer. But neither do I understand
the morals of a customer who will do that to a supplier.

Why make it about morality? It's about business, what the
supermarket can sell, to customers whose choices are led by the weather
and the economy. If there's a late cold spring, down goes the demand for
tender plug plants and GYO salad trays. When budgets are feeling the
pinch paying bills and buying food, customers may spend less on hanging
baskets or pots of bulbs in flower.

It may be very lovely for you, a comfortably off non-working
housewife with a car to spend more time during the day, and more money,
shopping in small businesses. Don't you realise it's a luxury to have
such means and opportunity, one denied to many working parents on a very
tight budget. They need to shop outside working hours. How many small
bakers, butchers and grocers stay open in the evening? Even if they
did, what does a single working parent do with the tired children as
s/he trails them a mile or two from shop to shop ? Carrying the
shopping, because small shops don't have a great big car park, and
trolleys with child seats.


Janet.

How the hell did our parents and grand parents survive?

"Janet" wrote in message
t...

In article ,
says...

Not so long ago I told Ray that I'd read of a wholesale nursery going
belly up. Today, he learned a bit more about it and said it was
because it had a £3 million order from a supermarket chain which
suddenly decided to halve that order. Then it said that if they potted
the remaining order on, they might buy them. They didn't.
Personally, I don't understand why anyone puts their entire future and
livelihood into the hands of one customer. But neither do I understand
the morals of a customer who will do that to a supplier.

Why make it about morality? It's about business, what the
supermarket can sell, to customers whose choices are led by the weather
and the economy. If there's a late cold spring, down goes the demand for
tender plug plants and GYO salad trays. When budgets are feeling the
pinch paying bills and buying food, customers may spend less on hanging
baskets or pots of bulbs in flower.

It may be very lovely for you, a comfortably off non-working
housewife with a car to spend more time during the day, and more money,
shopping in small businesses. Don't you realise it's a luxury to have
such means and opportunity, one denied to many working parents on a very
tight budget. They need to shop outside working hours. How many small
bakers, butchers and grocers stay open in the evening? Even if they
did, what does a single working parent do with the tired children as
s/he trails them a mile or two from shop to shop ? Carrying the
shopping, because small shops don't have a great big car park, and
trolleys with child seats.


Janet.

"Jake" wrote in message ...

On Sat, 31 Aug 2013 23:35:12 +0100, Sacha
wrote:

Not so long ago I told Ray that I'd read of a wholesale nursery going
belly up. Today, he learned a bit more about it and said it was
because it had a £3 million order from a supermarket chain which
suddenly decided to halve that order. Then it said that if they potted
the remaining order on, they might buy them. They didn't.
Personally, I don't understand why anyone puts their entire future and
livelihood into the hands of one customer. But neither do I understand
the morals of a customer who will do that to a supplier. The more I
hear of this sort of thing, the less inclined I am to use supermarkets
and am minded to go back to the old days of shopping at small
individual shops for every need, wherever possible. It's less
convenient, it takes longer and it may well be a bit more expensive but
if supermarkets can do this to their suppliers, it's a short step from
that to "you can only buy what we offer you, there is nothing else" and
all our high street shops are gone and so are our choices.

Anyone running a business, indeed anyone, who is unaware of the power
of the big supermarkets has had their head in the sand for years. For
example, the arguments about farm-gate prices haven't exactly been low
profile. That nursery took a risk and lost out. Such is life. I would
seriously question the business acumen of anyone who allowed a
situation where their existence depended on a single order. Perhaps
they were too greedy to see the risk.

I don't begrudge the higher prices at the local farmers' market or at
my local butcher, the extra 1 or 2p a litre at the local garage (which
is actually 1p cheaper than the nearest Tesco at the moment!). And
cheese made by a small producer tastes way better than the
mass-produced crap in the supermarket. But, and it's a big but, I can
afford all this and have the time. So many people cannot and are at
the mercy of whoever is the cheapest or the place where they can do
all their shopping in one go. Hence the so-called power.

And IME, the demise of the "corner shop" is as much the result of the
attitude of the owner as anything else. I've seen it here and back in
Cardiff where I used to live. With the right attitude, these little
shops can thrive, even if they back on to a large supermarket's car
park! The common denominator seems to be ethnic!

--
Cheers, Jake
=======================================
URGling from the east end of Swansea Bay in between
yanking up ever-appearing clumps of Himalayan balsam.

On Sun, 01 Sep 2013 11:24:46 +0100, David Hill
wrote:

How the hell did our parents and grand parents survive?

It's why many mothers of younger children were not in employment
outside the home then. Now, it takes two salaries to keep a roof over
the family's head, also, many have had to move away from the extended
family (who might have helped with child care) in order to get those
salaries.

That said, it seems many parents of younger children now seem to
expect to spend more time and money on a social life than I remember
my parents' generation doing.

To bring this back on-topic, have you noticed that gardens are now
generally considered part of the living space, not an opportunity to
grow food?

Gardening on Wilts/Somerset border
on slightly alkaline clay underlying soil worked for many decades.

On 2013-09-01 10:57:41 +0100, Janet said:

In article ,
says...

Not so long ago I told Ray that I'd read of a wholesale nursery going
belly up. Today, he learned a bit more about it and said it was
because it had a £3 million order from a supermarket chain which
suddenly decided to halve that order. Then it said that if they potted
the remaining order on, they might buy them. They didn't.
Personally, I don't understand why anyone puts their entire future and
livelihood into the hands of one customer. But neither do I understand
the morals of a customer who will do that to a supplier.

Why make it about morality? It's about business, what the
supermarket can sell, to customers whose choices are led by the weather
and the economy. If there's a late cold spring, down goes the demand for
tender plug plants and GYO salad trays. When budgets are feeling the
pinch paying bills and buying food, customers may spend less on hanging
baskets or pots of bulbs in flower.

It may be very lovely for you, a comfortably off non-working
housewife with a car to spend more time during the day, and more money,
shopping in small businesses. Don't you realise it's a luxury to have
such means and opportunity, one denied to many working parents on a very
tight budget. They need to shop outside working hours. How many small
bakers, butchers and grocers stay open in the evening? Even if they
did, what does a single working parent do with the tired children as
s/he trails them a mile or two from shop to shop ? Carrying the
shopping, because small shops don't have a great big car park, and
trolleys with child seats.


Janet.

What a lot of assumptions you do make, Janet. You know much less than
you think about my life now, or in the past. But never let it be said
that you miss an opportunity to further your spitefilled rants.
--

Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.com
South Devon
www.helpforheroes.org.uk

On 2013-09-01 11:26:16 +0100, Jake said:

On Sat, 31 Aug 2013 23:35:12 +0100, Sacha
wrote:

Not so long ago I told Ray that I'd read of a wholesale nursery going
belly up. Today, he learned a bit more about it and said it was
because it had a £3 million order from a supermarket chain which
suddenly decided to halve that order. Then it said that if they potted
the remaining order on, they might buy them. They didn't.
Personally, I don't understand why anyone puts their entire future and
livelihood into the hands of one customer. But neither do I understand
the morals of a customer who will do that to a supplier. The more I
hear of this sort of thing, the less inclined I am to use supermarkets
and am minded to go back to the old days of shopping at small
individual shops for every need, wherever possible. It's less
convenient, it takes longer and it may well be a bit more expensive but
if supermarkets can do this to their suppliers, it's a short step from
that to "you can only buy what we offer you, there is nothing else" and
all our high street shops are gone and so are our choices.

Anyone running a business, indeed anyone, who is unaware of the power
of the big supermarkets has had their head in the sand for years. For
example, the arguments about farm-gate prices haven't exactly been low
profile. That nursery took a risk and lost out. Such is life. I would
seriously question the business acumen of anyone who allowed a
situation where their existence depended on a single order. Perhaps
they were too greedy to see the risk.

I don't begrudge the higher prices at the local farmers' market or at
my local butcher, the extra 1 or 2p a litre at the local garage (which
is actually 1p cheaper than the nearest Tesco at the moment!). And
cheese made by a small producer tastes way better than the
mass-produced crap in the supermarket. But, and it's a big but, I can
afford all this and have the time. So many people cannot and are at
the mercy of whoever is the cheapest or the place where they can do
all their shopping in one go. Hence the so-called power.

I well understand the power. I think it wrong to offer someone the
carrot and then beat them with the stick - big business tactics or not.

And IME, the demise of the "corner shop" is as much the result of the
attitude of the owner as anything else. I've seen it here and back in
Cardiff where I used to live. With the right attitude, these little
shops can thrive, even if they back on to a large supermarket's car
park! The common denominator seems to be ethnic!

Our local ironmonger has been running against the 'big business' tide
for years. It changed hands two or three years ago but the previous
owners were 'warned' by reps from various companies that they wouldn't
survive unless they started selling everythinig in small packets
hanging from stands, or smartly displayed in sets of 6 spanners when
someone wanted only one, etc. They haven't changed their ways, the
business is under new ownership and you can go in to buy two nails and
a tea pot and if they haven't got the saucepan you want in stock,
they'll go through their catalogues and find it and order it. From all
apparent evidence, it thrives, always has loads of people in there and
not so long ago, opened up the 'back room' as another display area.
It's not dissimilar to the 'four candles' type of place, though some of
the merchandise is a bit more exciting!
--

Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.com
South Devon
www.helpforheroes.org.uk

On 01/09/13 11:24, David Hill wrote:
How the hell did our parents and grand parents survive?

Part of their survival involved spending ~30%
of income on food. That's now down to ~15%

There are multiple reasons for that change,
but big supermarkets are part of it.

In article ,
Janet wrote:
In article ,
says...

Not so long ago I told Ray that I'd read of a wholesale nursery going
belly up. Today, he learned a bit more about it and said it was
because it had a £3 million order from a supermarket chain which
suddenly decided to halve that order. Then it said that if they potted
the remaining order on, they might buy them. They didn't.
Personally, I don't understand why anyone puts their entire future and
livelihood into the hands of one customer. But neither do I understand
the morals of a customer who will do that to a supplier.

Why make it about morality? It's about business, what the
supermarket can sell, to customers whose choices are led by the weather
and the economy. If there's a late cold spring, down goes the demand for
tender plug plants and GYO salad trays. When budgets are feeling the
pinch paying bills and buying food, customers may spend less on hanging
baskets or pots of bulbs in flower.

It may be very lovely for you, a comfortably off non-working
housewife with a car to spend more time during the day, and more money,
shopping in small businesses. Don't you realise it's a luxury to have
such means and opportunity, one denied to many working parents on a very
tight budget. They need to shop outside working hours. How many small
bakers, butchers and grocers stay open in the evening? Even if they
did, what does a single working parent do with the tired children as
s/he trails them a mile or two from shop to shop ? Carrying the
shopping, because small shops don't have a great big car park, and
trolleys with child seats.

And what you don't realise is that it is people like you who have
driven the alternatives to bankruptcy. It's not only the way that
you shop - it's the political establishment that you support.
I will describe the working hour aspect below. But what is worse
is the harmful effects that you have caused to the rest of society.

Starting with supermarkets, but now in almost all areas of
retail and 'service' (such as banks), we are no longer the customers
but their commodities. Similarly, the government is now the agent
of such organisations, and has often changed the law when they found
it allowed individuals or small organisations to resist - and the
working hours issue is PRECISELY one such.
The country is now dependent on massive imports of oil, and
have essentially damn-all sources of foreign exchange except money
laundering to pay for it. WHEN, not if, we run out of that, we
are going to hit real trouble without the time to deal with it.
It is legally and politically acceptable to pay people less
that it is possible for them to raise a family on, and sometimes
even less than it is possible to live on. It is YOU who are
among the lucky ones, to be able to raise a family and work, and
afford a car. Child care is beyond the unfortunate ones.
And so on.

In article ,
'Mike' wrote:

And IME, the demise of the "corner shop" is as much the result of the
attitude of the owner as anything else. I've seen it here and back in
Cardiff where I used to live. With the right attitude, these little
shops can thrive, even if they back on to a large supermarket's car
park! The common denominator seems to be ethnic!

That is partially true, but also very false. Back in the 1950s to
1970s, the laws on working hours and Sunday trading were changed to
allow small traders to open for longer hours than large shops, and
many did so. The nascent supermarkets got the law changed so that
they had the same privilege, thus removing the only advantage that
a small trader had over them, and the supermarkets abused their
position to force their suppliers and small, competitive shops to
the wall. But it wasn't just that - they got the law changed so
that they are largely except from parking planning regulations
(whereas small traders are not).

Regrettably, since the tories took over the Labour party, we were
left with only the woolly-minded Liberal Democrats as opposition,
and we have seen what a balls up they have made of coalition. It's
a bit unfair to blame them, as they had no direct experience of the
dirtiness of the politics played by the main parties. Unfortunately,
our only hope for improvement is a revolution, and those are never
nice to live through (even when they are bloodless).

God help us all, because doing so is beyond mere sub-deities :-(


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.